What's new

JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

Regarding RCS, most estimations on RCS fail once you start hanging weapons and tanks on the plane as the RCS increases exponentially. Regarding the JFT, I only heard that there is a demand for IRST from a country. PAF did try it and found out that there were unspecified problems We are looking into it.
A
IRST has a lot of limitations as well -
From https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...their-own-datalinks-for-more-lethal-targeting

“there are some limitations to the effectiveness of these systems. For instance, atmospheric conditions can reduce the IRST’s range and acuity. Even more importantly, the IRST, in its basic form, is less able to provide a range calculation for a given target due to its ‘2D’ nature. Instead, the primary information it provides the pilot with is a bearing — the angle between the sensor and the target that’s been detected. Traditionally, a fighter pilot would be able to spot an aerial target using the IRST’s thermal optics, but would then have to use another device — typically radar — to determine how far away that target was, and how best to develop a firing solution to bring it down, if required. Otherwise, a shot could be taken without this information, albeit with a lower probability of kill. “

Unfortunately, unlike the Legion pod there is nothing comparable available to the PAF as such.

There is also the aspect of additional weight which non-technical folks will ignore. If you put something in the nose of an aircraft you have to counterbalance that weight otherwise you have a nose heavy situation. If you do counterbalance it then you have additional weight on top of the IRSTs own weight and now you have a Pig of a fighter.

Does the $15-20 million JF-17 focused on homeland defense and shallow interdiction strikes warrant a IRST is another question?
 
this was the first time ever PAF came across a true 4.5++ gen fighter without any restrictions. Before this their benchmark was only f16 C Block 52. But now they came to know a fighter which can only be comparable to f16V Block 70.

This is also one of the reasons why there is a sudden re desire to engaging Americans on f16 update and western appeasement like kicking IK out, engaging israelis etc etc.

I cant apologize to @MastanKhan enough, i used to think of him as this grumpy old guy in US who is a car salesman and thinks he knows abt PAF more then PAF's high command itself.

But actually the whole PAF's idea of excellence was centered around block52s which arnt true 4.5 gen fighters. Now however PAF knows. And this is also why i believe Block-3 r taking so long to get inducted. As now probably PAF is revising its specs for Block-3s.

BTW if u dont know, now Block 3 will be inducted next year not this year, thats what i heard however not completely sure.

Hi,

Thank you. I am grateful for those comments.
 
IRST has a lot of limitations as well -
From https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...their-own-datalinks-for-more-lethal-targeting

“there are some limitations to the effectiveness of these systems. For instance, atmospheric conditions can reduce the IRST’s range and acuity. Even more importantly, the IRST, in its basic form, is less able to provide a range calculation for a given target due to its ‘2D’ nature. Instead, the primary information it provides the pilot with is a bearing — the angle between the sensor and the target that’s been detected. Traditionally, a fighter pilot would be able to spot an aerial target using the IRST’s thermal optics, but would then have to use another device — typically radar — to determine how far away that target was, and how best to develop a firing solution to bring it down, if required. Otherwise, a shot could be taken without this information, albeit with a lower probability of kill. “

Unfortunately, unlike the Legion pod there is nothing comparable available to the PAF as such.

There is also the aspect of additional weight which non-technical folks will ignore. If you put something in the nose of an aircraft you have to counterbalance that weight otherwise you have a nose heavy situation. If you do counterbalance it then you have additional weight on top of the IRSTs own weight and now you have a Pig of a fighter.

Does the $15-20 million JF-17 focused on homeland defense and shallow interdiction strikes warrant a IRST is another question?
it was supposed to carry same j10C's IRST which itself is j20's......its 3D.

block 3 is a 32 million plane.
 
it was supposed to carry same j10C's IRST which itself is j20's......its 3D.

block 3 is a 32 million plane.
Then either the cost was pushed up or design challenges were encountered that made it not feasible.

The other alternative is that simply due to the whim of a particular decision maker it was not done. Has happened, continues to happen and with the way the culture of Pakistan is going will happen in the future as well.

@JamD has hinted already the doldrums AZM is in due to such “whims”
 
Then either the cost was pushed up or design challenges were encountered that made it not feasible.

The other alternative is that simply due to the whim of a particular decision maker it was not done. Has happened, continues to happen and with the way the culture of Pakistan is going will happen in the future as well.

@JamD has hinted already the doldrums AZM is in due to such “whims”
u do realize that PAF itself is pretty inflatable too.

great performances of op. swift retort, has made a few invincible just as they became after 65 air battles........when india was buying mig21s they were still trying to buy old used f86E and mirages.

PAF isnt a very experienced force, specially this current lot hasnt even killed a bird in the air (literally). Same is problem with navy too. This so called culture is due to that.

In pre War On Terror Army, this culture used to be the same, but after the hard cruel exp of decades of practical soldiering has tough them up with hard lessons. Now they r battle hardened and hence matured as an institution. While other services havnt.

Ye asal baat ha!
 
Last edited:
u do realize that PAF itself is pretty inflatable too.

great performances of op. swift retort, has made a few invincible just as they became after 65 air battles........when india was buying mig21s they r still trying to buy used f86E and mirages.

PAF isnt a very experienced force, specially this current lot hasnt even killed a bird in the air (literally). Same is problem with navy too. This so called culture is due to that.

In pre WOT Army, this culture used to be the same, but after the hard cruel exp of decades of practical soldiering has tough them these hard lessons. Now they r battle hardened and hence matured as an institution. While other services havnt.

Ye asal baat ha!
Absolutely, they are intent on bragging about generally smaller achievements which pale in comparison to many other air forces. But then very few air forces have modern combat experience. They shot down a 60s Mig-21 and possibly brought down the integrations nightmare known as the Su-30MKi but those are two kills in a combined op.

You gave a lot away when conducting that op too. However, that doesn’t mean mature commanders don’t exist within both PAF and Navy who were part of WoT ops and know warfare. The issue is that those that are the right candidates aren’t always the ones that may end up leading the force. The 65 war was a loss for the PAF because it poorly executed a great plan but ended up rewarding those who didn’t even fight and reportedly were nervous about flying in combat. In 71 many opportunities were lost due to personal whims of opportunists who eventually still got promoted and continued their damage to the PAF until retirement.

But this is the story of many militaries and the US, British and others have similar characters. Take the recent Russo-Ukrainian war - for all the weaponry the RuAF is performing like a flying club instead of an airforce.
 
Absolutely, they are intent on bragging about generally smaller achievements which pale in comparison to many other air forces. But then very few air forces have modern combat experience. They shot down a 60s Mig-21 and possibly brought down the integrations nightmare known as the Su-30MKi but those are two kills in a combined op.

You gave a lot away when conducting that op too. However, that doesn’t mean mature commanders don’t exist within both PAF and Navy who were part of WoT ops and know warfare. The issue is that those that are the right candidates aren’t always the ones that may end up leading the force. The 65 war was a loss for the PAF because it poorly executed a great plan but ended up rewarding those who didn’t even fight and reportedly were nervous about flying in combat. In 71 many opportunities were lost due to personal whims of opportunists who eventually still got promoted and continued their damage to the PAF until retirement.

But this is the story of many militaries and the US, British and others have similar characters. Take the recent Russo-Ukrainian war - for all the weaponry the RuAF is performing like a flying club instead of an airforce.
About the bolded part;

u think those right candidates dont end up being in high command? U say culture....i agree with it. However i had gone a step ahead to tell u where that culture stems from.

Zamany ki maar jiss insan ny khaye hoti ha na, wo kabhi dubara ghaltian nahi karta. Even if he still does, that ratio is far less vs those who havnt seen zamany ki maar.

Kuch lessons seekhny k lea zindagi ki maar khana zaroori hoti ha. Jisne nahi khaye wo apni zindagi main ghaltian karta rehta ha vs that person who has.

Army ny zindagi or warfare ki asal maar khaye ha in the last 2 decades. While PAF Navy hasnt. Thats why they dont have the right criteria to look for in an officer inorder to promote him to higher ranks. And u learn that from yr practical soldiering, u find out what kind of a person will still stay put even under the hard 155mm artillery barrage coming from 3 sides. Or if he is in the defensive position, the constant wave after wave of enemy attacks coming from all 3 sides......And u commanding yr men as an officer in such circumstances show how much resilience u have as a man itself. Do u have a heart of a lion or a heart of a chicken? :azn:

These r some of the criteria that u start looking at a man while thinking of promoting him, this criteria that u have learnt from practical soldiering. And that only comes when u have hard earned battle exp. in which u were tested to yr absolute limits, limits of yr patience, resilience, yr human efficiency, yr fighting prowess etc etc

Now think abt the other services besides the army, as an institution........Have they gone through such bitter tests, practical battle piloting and practical battle sailoring? You say that there is a problem with merit, while i agree with that generally but i go a step ahead to say even if they do start being just, they would still keep on committing the same mistakes over and over again, because of the lack of suitable criteria to look for in a man! to see if he is the right man for the right job or not?

Im of the view that these two ''other'' services havnt yet developed a suitable criteria to look for themselves which is indigenous and suiting to the psyche of men in our country which is vastly different to British, US or other that u mentioned.

Their criteria is that if u have won sword of honor, yr guaranteed being a General, Air Marshall or an Admiral. Which is horseshit IMHO. And i still mention Generals because this was the same military which had put a man like Gen Raheel Sharif's leadership caliber in mere IGTI role before NS ''mistakenly'' made him COAS and we came to know how effective he was in leadership role vs This current guy who was made a Lt Gen without even firing a single bullet in anger himself. And now we can see the difference b/w these two men.:azn:

So its all about criteria. These Britishers, these Americans are some ones who had been fighting wars after wars throughout their history. putting their men in the heat of the battle one after another, thats why i believe now they r in a better position to judge thanks to their better and matured criteria for their own men and people's psyche. Its funny if u look at their history, u will think at one point if they had done anything besides fighting all this time?,

While we lack in that thanks to our lack of exp.
 
Last edited:
this was the first time ever PAF came across a true 4.5++ gen fighter without any restrictions. Before this their benchmark was only f16 C Block 52. But now they came to know a fighter which can only be comparable to f16V Block 70.

This is also one of the reasons why there is a sudden re desire to engaging Americans on f16 update and western appeasement like kicking IK out, engaging israelis etc etc.

I cant apologize to @MastanKhan enough, i used to think of him as this grumpy old guy in US who is a car salesman and thinks he knows abt PAF more then PAF's high command itself.

But actually the whole PAF's idea of excellence was centered around block52s which arnt true 4.5 gen fighters. Now however PAF knows. And this is also why i believe Block-3 r taking so long to get inducted. As now probably PAF is revising its specs for Block-3s.

BTW if u dont know, now Block 3 will be inducted next year not this year, thats what i heard however not completely sure.
Looks true depiction without powerful engine, IRST and other gadgets JF17 even as second tier gap filler shall not last long. PAF has limited jets so high capability should be maintained at all times. The truth is even Block 52 F16s are now becoming obsolete in Indo Pak scenario as IAF getting more Rafaels and even on verge of getting F18s for IN. We should also get prepare ourselves, J10 CE is a good choice for now may be if rumors abt J10d are true then it should also be inducted in near future. As well as we should get JF17 with best possible specs.

Question is still there do the Turkish POD i.e AESLPOD has capacity for Air target search and if it does how much range it has. No one has answered.
 
Last edited:
Hi,

Flight at Mach2 is an illusion for general purpose fighter aircraft.

Out of the 2 major 5th gen aircraft, one can only fly for 53 second at mach 1.5---after that, its stealth skin starts to deteriorate.
If F7 variants can have speed of Mach 2 why not JF17 as it is not a stealthy jet. If French are successful in bringing Rafael RCS at low levels with Ammo then why not in case of JF17 it is possible. An IRST of Chinese origin should have been there as they already have it for J10s to J20.

My focus is still on IRST.
 
If F7 variants can have speed of Mach 2 why not JF17 as it is not a stealthy jet. If French are successful in bringing Rafael RCS at low levels with Ammo then why not in case of JF17 it is possible. An IRST of Chinese origin should have been there as they already have it for J10s to J20.

My focus is still on IRST.

Hi,

When the F7 was created in the original format---it was thought that the aircraft could outrun the missile----.

But as modern missiles are twice as fast----more energy is spent on countering the missiles than increasing the speed.

As for IRST---it is extremely important.
 
Looks true depiction without powerful engine, IRST and other gadgets JF17 even as second tier gap filler shall not last long. PAF has limited jets so high capability should be maintained at all times. The truth is even Block 52 F16s are now becoming obsolete in Indo Pak scenario as IAF getting more Rafaels and even on verge of getting F18s for IN. We should also get prepare ourselves, J10 CE is a good choice for now may be if rumors abt J10d are true then it should also be inducted in near future. As well as we should get JF17 with best possible specs.

Question is still there do the Turkish POD i.e AESLPOD has capacity for Air target search and if it does how much range it has. No one has answered.
Every T-Pod's A2A range is classified. Nobody is gonna tell that. Even the range of F16's sniper pod is classified.

I agree that with future Rafale F4 coming in India Block52s will be close to obsolete too. However i wont agree that they will be completely obsolete. They will be retired by 2045. At least that was the date for their retirement during Sohail Aman's era.

And yes J10D will be coming to PAF.......Right now with the order of 36 Cs get completed, next order of 36 more j10 will be of ''D'' version. But that's in future.

If Project Azm will be build as scheduled, i.e. by early 2030s induction. Then Azm will start replacing early Jf17 Block 1s and 2s as well as early F16AM/BM if they don't get Block 70 updates. And if Azm is late then i believe J10Ds will start replacing them.

So PAF by 2040 will be of ; F16C/D Block 52.......JF17-B/C/D/E Block-3, 4, 5.......J10C/D......Project Azm.
 
.,.,
1655124104978.png
 

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom