JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[PakShaheen79]

These are the exact reasons why JF-17 won't sell.
JF-17 marketing team is promoting the same aspects that killed F20 Tigershark.
PAF is trying to sell what they think is the value proposition of this product, customers buy what they think is the perceived value of the product. PAF has to align its promotion with the customer's perceived value of a fighter jet.

[/QUOTE]

Pakistani scenario is entirely different. we don't have a competing product with better specs. PAC has only Thunder to offer and PAF itself flies it. So, countries to whom it will be offered will find that eventually, Thunder is among top tier fighters within PAF.

 

[Path-Finder]

I had a look at both the videos. Thank you for posting. I think PAF was offered production in house for the F20. The issues have also been highlighted.
F16 was a next generation fighter that everyone wanted and so when export restrictions were relaxed everyone got them. One problem for the F20 was just 5 HPs as against 9 for 16s. When the F20s were pushed to higher Gs two fighters crashed and that is very bad news for a matured fighter pointing to possible flaws in design or cutting corners to save cost. One thought would have been if there is a redesign needed to correct the flaw who would foot the bill. The same for increasing HPs to 7.
I also agree PAF should have looked at asking for in house production of the F20 and asked the producers to increase HPs to 7. This would have given us the JFT in the 80s along with the 16. I agree that F20 might have made sense with the 16 not in place of 16s.
A

I guess at present it can be speculated 'what if' we had F20 along with F16! Personally although history panned out differently and we did take inspiration from F20 over a decade after the cancellation it was materialised as we did build JF17 and swedes the griphen. Pakistan choosing F20 would have spurred more sales of the aircraft to other nations.

 

[araz]

I guess at present it can be speculated 'what if' we had F20 along with F16! Personally although history panned out differently and we did take inspiration from F20 over a decade after the cancellation it was materialised as we did build JF17 and swedes the griphen. Pakistan choosing F20 would have spurred more sales of the aircraft to other nations.

I guess the answer is that we are far more independent with the JFT than we would ever have been with the F20. I am also concerned whether there were technical flaws leading to the 2 crashes. When a competition for survival is on,the firms sometimes cut corners and these can comeback to haunt buyers. We would also have been short of a couple of Hardpoints so all in all we are better off. One good principle I have learnt is never to ponder on what might have been. It has been described as kufr by some religious scholors and it makes sense.
Onwards and upwards with the JFT.

A

 

[MirageBlue]

If the next skirmish is going to take place any time soon, then the chances of seeing Tejas in action would be grim keeping in mind that the aircraft has not yet gone through proper weapons integration and testing.

What weapons are you referring to?

It has already been tested with R-73E with HMDS and Derby BVRAAM and cleared for use. However, the operational squadron, No.45 'Flying Daggers' has IOC jets that do not yet have the FOC release software to use the Derby missiles. It will come in due course. As of now, they're still based at Sulur AFS and might move to a forward air base either by this year end or early next year. Covid-19 has delayed all plans as of now.

So IAF thinks that PAF would be using a CM as a nuke? Pretty damn dumb if you ask me.

Either way, PAF can take out AWACS air base in Punjab with MLRS quite easily leaving IAF with only 3 AWACS stationed quite far from the action.

What makes you think that PAF air bases are safe? India has the advantage of strategic depth, whereas most PAF air bases are at most a couple hundred kms from the border.

IAF AWACS are mostly based in Agra. Targeting air bases is not so simple and they have terminal air defences to handle sub-sonic cruise missiles.

I dont think it would matter in a war.

Indians tried to launch brahmos on Malir Garrison, Karachi and other installations only last year.

We took out 6 targets with Stand Off Weapons.

And I dont think any country would just bush the retard button without confirmation of an actual nuclear strike.

India never attempted to launch Brahmos. If it had, nothing could stop a Mach 3 cruise missile from hitting it's target.

And no, not a single target was hit with the stand-off weapons. They landed at safe distances, either deliberately (as claimed by PAF) or because their targeting was hampered due to the MiG-21s that intercepted the package (as claimed by the IAF).

Yar that's all fine and dandy...but what I wanna know is that why was the indian phalcon missing in action in spite of being in the air in the theater of operation on Feb 27th?

Who told you it was missing in action? The Phalcon AWACS is the one that registered the electronic emission of the F-16 disappearing.

That said, the indians have actually prepared and tried a massive cruise missile attack, only to be
detected before attack and given a message in kind.

the Indian Navy was deployed and on alert for any escalation from the Pakistani side that would lead to an all-out war. They didn't "try" a massive cruise missile attack, because both sides de-escalated. Not because anything was detected or any message given. If war breaks out, they will be used, message or no message.

I think he meant flying that low over an enemy airfield. No one is really performing such tactics anymore. The RAF suffered significant casualties in the first Gulf War with its Tornados using this tactic.



The air refuelling capability was added later and not part of the original design. In my view, if it had been integrated from the beginning, there would have been a better solution. Could have gone for something similar to the Saab Gripen using Cobham retractable probes. However, a solution similar to the Sepecat Jaguar would have been ideal. If similar sized aircraft such as these two can integrate retractable probes, I can't see why we couldn't do that for the JF-17.

Gripen's refueling probe is designed that way because they retrofitted it into Gripen Cs. It is a bad bad design, and Gripen pilots consider it to the worst thing about the Gripen. Refueling with it is hard even though it has FBW FCS.

 

[GumNaam]

Who told you it was missing in action? The Phalcon AWACS is the one that registered the electronic emission of the F-16 disappearing.

uhm your not referring to those piss poorly put together "air situation" ms-paint jobs are you? Cuz everyone else in the world dismissed them as jokes about as fast as they were revealed...

 

[MirageBlue]

uhm your not referring to those piss poorly put together "air situation" ms-paint jobs are you? Cuz everyone else in the world dismissed them as jokes about as fast as they were revealed...

Just shows how poor your own level of understanding is. A snapshot of an air situation dashboard will look exactly like that did. Whether you believe it or not makes not a whit of a difference.

 

[GumNaam]

Just shows how poor your own level of understanding is. A snapshot of an air situation dashboard will look exactly like that did. Whether you believe it or not makes not a whit of a difference.

at least have the decency to put the entire video footage that you KNOW is anways recorded & maintained instead of "screenshots"! I'm sure that to indians like you yes it doesn't make a whit of a difference whether I along with everyone else in the world believes it or not. but none the less, it was a very good laugh for the world...don't forget, abhi-none-done's missile these piss poor ms-paint jobs show "bringing the F16", we have all of his unfired missiles, 3 intact and one fused to his bison's wreckage.

 

[MirageBlue]

at least have the decency to put the entire video footage that you KNOW is anways recorded & maintained instead of "screenshots"! I'm sure that to indians like you yes it doesn't make a whit of a difference whether I along with everyone else in the world believes it or not. but none the less, it was a very good laugh for the world...

the IAF is under no obligation to release any footage, especially nothing that reveals the level of electronic gathering that is possible. It is classified for a reason, which is obviously beyond your level of knowledge. Any analyst worth his salt would know what all info would be released if a video of everything that the AWACS captured electronically is released.

It's ok, you can live in your own bubble.

 

[GumNaam]

the IAF is under no obligation to release any footage, especially nothing that reveals the level of electronic gathering that is possible. It is classified for a reason, which is obviously beyond your level of knowledge. Any analyst worth his salt would know what all info would be released if a video of everything that the AWACS captured electronically is released.

It's ok, you can live in your own bubble.

stop trying man...those fake ms-paint pics are a joke...as I said...we already have abhi-none-done's unfired missiles so you're pics from the blinded awacs have already been exposed as fake many times over by (as you put it) "any analyist worth is salt". and stop pretending to be an american, your indian butthurt is showing through...

 

[khanasifm]

This is jf thread take you discussion to appropriate forum

 

[Thorough Pro]

You had no clue what you were writing but wrote it just for the sake of it.

For the highlighted in Red, "it will be"? where do you live? it has been offered left, right and center for the last 15 years with only 9 units sold so far, had they marketed it correctly (which is not marketing it at all) they would have easily sold 100+ so far

For the highlighted in Blue, "Will find it eventually" after 30 years? just like the world found out about F20?

For the highlighted in pink, "Thunder is among top tier fighters within PAF", which customer gives a **** what the top fighter is in PAF? Everyone thinks for themselves, they think about their needs in comparison to the threat they face and that is what our marketing should be focussed on. Rather than harping about cheap, affordable, easy to fly, easy to maintain, low operating cost and yada yada yada, it would have been better for PAF to shut the **** up and just highlight the capabilities and build a selling pitch customized to each customer. A jet fighter is not consumer electronics that you can sell to the masses with just one sales pitch.

Pakistani scenario is entirely different. we don't have a competing product with better specs. PAC has only Thunder to offer and PAF itself flies it. So, countries to whom it will be offered will find that eventually, Thunder is among top tier fighters within PAF.

Edited by Moderator . No isults allowed

Just shows how poor your own level of understanding is. A snapshot of an air situation dashboard will look exactly like that did. Whether you believe it or not makes not a whit of a difference.

 

[PakShaheen79]

You had no clue what you were writing but wrote it just for the sake of it.

For the highlighted in Red, "it will be"? where do you live? it has been offered left, right and center for the last 15 years with only 9 units sold so far, had they marketed it correctly (which is not marketing it at all) they would have easily sold 100+ so far

For the highlighted in Blue, "Will find it eventually" after 30 years? just like the world found out about F20?

For the highlighted in pink, "Thunder is among top tier fighters within PAF", which customer gives a **** what the top fighter is in PAF? Everyone thinks for themselves, they think about their needs in comparison to the threat they face and that is what our marketing should be focussed on. Rather than harping about cheap, affordable, easy to fly, easy to maintain, low operating cost and yada yada yada, it would have been better for PAF to shut the **** up and just highlight the capabilities and build a selling pitch customized to each customer. A jet fighter is not consumer electronics that you can sell to the masses with just one sales pitch.



LOL. Only Indians can suck that turd lolly and not tell the difference in taste.

Notwithstanding all your uncalled for diatribe, I will try to address the gist of what you are saying and what was said in the video you shared. I replied in the context of what was the basic premise in the video that because a more advanced platform was available which was built ground up (F-16) that's why it attracted all the customers looking for light weight aircraft compared to an upgrade of F-5 (i.e. F-20). It was bound to happen no matter whichever marketing theory you apply. Problem is you are comparing this scenario to PAF which, I my opinion, is not applicable as there is no other product from within PAC/PAF. Now if we add other competitors like LCA, then I am not certain which marketing strategy is worth more than Value for Money. Thunder is still in evolution. It cant compete with 4.5/4.5+ generations fighters but in future it will be there for certain. So, any misplaced claim will fall v quickly on its face. So we are simply telling the world, hey, it does all those things which other 4/4+ gen fighters to at a considerably low price. It is what it is. This is certainly is not what F-16 was in early 80's. Then there are inherit limitations due to which it will attract buyers only in certain market like primary role of this aircraft. Air forces looking for medium/heavy fighters will not consider it due to this simple fact. And amid COVID-19 marketing efforts will face more challenges. Dassault had a massive reputation, perhaps unparalleled in European aircraft manufacturers. Rafale, which is far more advanced than Thunder, first flew in 1986 (34 years ago) and see how long it took to secure first order. PAF has its history as its marketing tool particularly in African and ME market. If PAF is using a fighter as front line fighter, it sends a signal to potential buyer that this platform is worth looking at. Anyone with higher requirements will simply not consider it. With every upcoming block, its attraction will grow in certain markets. Not everyone buys every aircraft. Each product, irrespective of fact how good it is, takes a share in global market. So, be patient and PAF knows better than arm chair generals when it comes to selling Thunder.

 

[Syntage]

What weapons are you referring to?

It has already been tested with R-73E with HMDS and Derby BVRAAM and cleared for use. However, the operational squadron, No.45 'Flying Daggers' has IOC jets that do not yet have the FOC release software to use the Derby missiles. It will come in due course. As of now, they're still based at Sulur AFS and might move to a forward air base either by this year end or early next year. Covid-19 has delayed all plans as of now.



What makes you think that PAF air bases are safe? India has the advantage of strategic depth, whereas most PAF air bases are at most a couple hundred kms from the border.

IAF AWACS are mostly based in Agra. Targeting air bases is not so simple and they have terminal air defences to handle sub-sonic cruise missiles.



India never attempted to launch Brahmos. If it had, nothing could stop a Mach 3 cruise missile from hitting it's target.

And no, not a single target was hit with the stand-off weapons. They landed at safe distances, either deliberately (as claimed by PAF) or because their targeting was hampered due to the MiG-21s that intercepted the package (as claimed by the IAF).



Who told you it was missing in action? The Phalcon AWACS is the one that registered the electronic emission of the F-16 disappearing.



the Indian Navy was deployed and on alert for any escalation from the Pakistani side that would lead to an all-out war. They didn't "try" a massive cruise missile attack, because both sides de-escalated. Not because anything was detected or any message given. If war breaks out, they will be used, message or no message.



Gripen's refueling probe is designed that way because they retrofitted it into Gripen Cs. It is a bad bad design, and Gripen pilots consider it to the worst thing about the Gripen. Refueling with it is hard even though it has FBW FCS.

Stop being so damn biased.All your analysis are based on assumptions and just assumptions.What Pakistan did, the whole world saw that.The claims IAF is putting up are not even backed by their own ministry of defence and the American administration.
The bombs landed on the other side of the LOC are a fact but you are suspicious about it, and on the other hand you are going on full thrust to assume that Phalcon AWACS picked a signal of an F 16 going down.
You are trying to support the claims made by IAF which were not even supported by their own people.
Find something better to do.Analysis is not your thing.

 

[mshan44]

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

the Indian Navy was deployed and on alert for any escalation from the Pakistani side that would lead to an all-out war. They didn't "try" a massive cruise missile attack, because both sides de-escalated. Not because anything was detected or any message given. If war breaks out, they will be used, message or no message.

Pakistani Navy was ready too