JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[CriticalThought]

Depends on block and goodies involved... air frame alone is not a big secret

The performance envelope will no longer be a secret. That is important info for the enemy, although not the only thing that determines outcomes. What the enemy won't have is PAF's ecosystem within which Thunder flies and the Radar/EW details.

Logically speaking, it means the PAF isn't relying on any hidden aerodynamic/engine performance capabilities of Thunder, EXCEPT if they have done some under the hood tweaks that no one knows about.

 

[ziaulislam]

Yes it is the Arabs fault, that initially the JFT didn't have an OBOG, or a dual seater. Somebody should wake them up.

they would still not have brought it, lets not kid ourselves
why qatar brought three different planes in single day
its all about political backing, with purge going on in saudi Arabia this is all but more important

PS:
i dont blame them i think they are doing the right thing for themselves/(not for their country)
i would have done the same

 

[blain2]

Isnt Air Commodore = Army Brig ?

Guy of that rank cant even speak english?

There are generals with poor expression (throughout the subcontinent by the way) as such being a brigadier has no bearing on whether he can speak english well. The reason for that in Pakistan at least is that much of our officer corps does not come from english medium schools (neither should it). As such spoken english may not be very eloquent or crisp. The key to the promotion board is how well the officers do in their responsibilities within a rank and on courses. Angraizi may play a small role, but is certainly not a deciding factor. This officer would be perfectly fine in an administrative role within Pakistan, however not so in a marketing role outside of Pakistan trying to sell our wares.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

There are generals with poor expression (throughout the subcontinent by the way) as such being a brigadier has no bearing on whether he can speak english well. The reason for that in Pakistan at least is that much of our officer corps does not come from english medium schools (neither should it). As such spoken english may not be very eloquent or crisp. The key to the promotion board is how well the officers do in their responsibilities within a rank and on courses. Angraizi may play a small role, but is certainly not a deciding factor. This officer would be perfectly fine in an administrative role within Pakistan, however not so in a marketing role outside of Pakistan trying to sell our wares.

Should hire some experienced civilian guy or even a marketing firm for sales n promotions.

Same goes for HIT...If you remember Army recognitions interview - ideas.

 

[Dr Shaheryar]

Have you heard French Rafael guys or Swedish Gripen. Then you would understand. English is not our mother tongue. Let it be that way. Speaking fluent English doesn't qualify for anything. Your work leaves a mark.

 

[Maxpane]

i think our armed forces think that they are jack of all trades

 

[razgriz19]

The performance envelope will no longer be a secret. That is important info for the enemy, although not the only thing that determines outcomes. What the enemy won't have is PAF's ecosystem within which Thunder flies and the Radar/EW details.

Logically speaking, it means the PAF isn't relying on any hidden aerodynamic/engine performance capabilities of Thunder, EXCEPT if they have done some under the hood tweaks that no one knows about.

They already know everything there is to know about all of our current platforms and i dont see PAF losing sleep over it. They fly Mig21 (F7), advance version of Mirages and they've flown F-16s during trials for MMRCA (advance version as well)
They've also done exercises with block 50/52s.

 

[CriticalThought]

Have you heard French Rafael guys or Swedish Gripen. Then you would understand. English is not our mother tongue. Let it be that way. Speaking fluent English doesn't qualify for anything. Your work leaves a mark.

A critical error. European accents are considered wonderfully different whereas Indian accent is incomprehensible. We don't do any favors to ourselves speaking like desis.

 

[Khadim e Darul Ehsaan]

Jf17 with IFR probe

 

[Khafee]

they would still not have brought it, lets not kid ourselves

There was serious interest from our side, and now we are waiting for Blk3 as well as the dual seater "B" version/

This happened, when the Current MajGen was NOT Chief of the UAE AF

Which lead to an evaluation team being dispatched:

But the JFT was found lacking, some I mentioned in my earlier post, others I won't.

lets not kid ourselves
why qatar brought three different planes in single day
its all about political backing, with purge going on in saudi Arabia this is all but more important

I have no love for the Qataris, but they did not buy 3 aircrafts in one day. They had been negotiating for quite some time, as is the norm.

I have said this on the forum before, multi million / billion dollar contracts don't happen at the drop of a dime, months, even years of negotiations and communications go into it.

Please see this link, from last year:
September 29, 2016
http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/us-clears-fighter-jet-sales-to-gulf-states-1.1904008

 

[Khafee]

The real question is, should uniformed personnel be selling and marketing? The answer is clearly no, but perhaps there is a dearth of sales and marketing talent for the defence industries.
More fundamentally, had someone from Western Europe been doing this talk, they would have stuck to their native language and perhaps the Air Commodore should have done the same. Zia-ul-Haq'a urdu medium idiocy left us neither here nor there (as in Urdu "na iddher ka, no uddher ka). The angraizi standards went down drastically and the urdu side of it never caught up. So now you have Pakistanis who neither speak good English nor Urdu with proper pronunciation (the latest trend to ape Americanized English is even worse!). Sometime back, in Islamabad, I saw on one of the street boards "Supreme Court of Pakistan" written out in urdu and I was dumbstruck by the silliness.

There is nothing wrong with being Air Commodore, and he might have extraordinary skills in other areas, but like me, he doesn't seem to be a fluent speaker, hence a poor choice for the job. If you can't sell a bad product, it's understandable but if you can't sell an otherwise excellent product because of a bad salesman, that is just unfortunate.

Such examples of selecting wrong people for a highly public job tell a different story than all the talk of "merit" based system.

Should hire some experienced civilian guy or even a marketing firm for sales n promotions.

Same goes for HIT...If you remember Army recognitions interview - ideas.

i think our armed forces think that they are jack of all trades

MY Personal Opinion - The way the AC can explain the aircraft to Air Force personnel, break the ice, a civilian would not be up to that level.

Military men, communicate on a different wavelength, something most civilians dont understand. So an AC, communicating in the same wave length, is just fine.

 

[Army research]

MY Personal Opinion - The way the AC can explain the aircraft to Air Force personnel, break the ice, a civilian would not be up to that level.

Military men, communicate on a different wavelength, something most civilians dont understand. So an AC, communicating in the same wave length, is just fine.

Look he should get a translator, but when your trying to buy a craft the norm is to talk to the highest ranking official of the manufacturer, be it a military officer or civilian. Our military officers especially old ones are really lacking in terms of English , thus they should have translators with them

 

[Khafee]

Look he should get a translator, but when your trying to buy a craft the norm is to talk to the highest ranking official of the manufacturer, be it a military officer or civilian. Our military officers especially old ones are really lacking in terms of English , thus they should have translators with them

Don't be silly! His English is just fine.

When senior officers, from potential air forces, talk to a military person, it carries weight, because the AC is a pilot, he has flown aircrafts, he knows what he is talking about. HE is not a civilian who might have a PPL or CPL at best, AND who has memorized a script and is parroting from it.

PAF despite its follies, is respected the world over, so when a senior PAF officer is used to "break the ice," nothing like it.

 

[ziaulislam]

A critical error. European accents are considered wonderfully different whereas Indian accent is incomprehensible. We don't do any favors to ourselves speaking like desis.

Nope
Here in America . People complained that they don't understand the english of a European guy.
Their accent is more difficult to understand than ours.

Now this may be different in Europe of course....

Bottom line is that we shouldnt worry abt this ..
any one who thinks otherwise is not logical..
look at china,France,Germany or japan

 

[Advocate Pakistan]

Yes it is the Arabs fault, that initially the JFT didn't have an OBOG, or a dual seater. Somebody should wake them up.

I felt this was aggressive from your side, maybe you didn't intend as such and it's only my brain playing it up.
What I intended to say is that
1: The Gulf Arabs are rich, they will never compromise on quality to save a few bucks. They like top of the line products. For example: UAE purchased AESA equipped F-16s over a decade ago while the thunder is to be equipped with AESA on any future date, which could be in Block III or even later.
2: Than there is the argument of expertise in aircraft and subsystem design and manufacturing in which the Westerners are definitely more experienced than Pakistanis.
3: Another argument could be the introduction of a whole new range of systems to be introduced with the Thunder e.g Chinese weaponry, Russian engine.
4: Had the PAF worked on a proposal for western engine, radar and weapons for traditionally western equipped Air forces, the Gulf Arabs might have invested into such a development like the Emaritis did with the Desert Falcon.

I agree it's not the Arabs fault. When PAF says that JF17 Thunder is made to the PAF requirements (sanctions free even if it means a slightly lower performance), than the PAF should realize, their requirements are not the requirements of Emaritis or Saudis.