JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[Khafee]

I felt this was aggressive from your side, maybe you didn't intend as such and it's only my brain playing it up.
What I intended to say is that
1: The Gulf Arabs are rich, they will never compromise on quality to save a few bucks. They like top of the line products. For example: UAE purchased AESA equipped F-16s over a decade ago while the thunder is to be equipped with AESA on any future date, which could be in Block III or even later.
2: Than there is the argument of expertise in aircraft and subsystem design and manufacturing in which the Westerners are definitely more experienced than Pakistanis.
3: Another argument could be the introduction of a whole new range of systems to be introduced with the Thunder e.g Chinese weaponry, Russian engine.
4: Had the PAF worked on a proposal for western engine, radar and weapons for traditionally western equipped Air forces, the Gulf Arabs might have invested into such a development like the Emaritis did with the Desert Falcon.

I agree it's not the Arabs fault. When PAF says that JF17 Thunder is made to the PAF requirements (sanctions free even if it means a slightly lower performance), than the PAF should realize, their requirements are not the requirements of Emaritis or Saudis.

Your humility is really appreciated, and you have raised very valid points. Let me see if @The Eagle can open up a PM, I will try to answer you there.

 

[ziaulislam]

I felt this was aggressive from your side, maybe you didn't intend as such and it's only my brain playing it up.
What I intended to say is that
1: The Gulf Arabs are rich, they will never compromise on quality to save a few bucks. They like top of the line products. For example: UAE purchased AESA equipped F-16s over a decade ago while the thunder is to be equipped with AESA on any future date, which could be in Block III or even later.
2: Than there is the argument of expertise in aircraft and subsystem design and manufacturing in which the Westerners are definitely more experienced than Pakistanis.
3: Another argument could be the introduction of a whole new range of systems to be introduced with the Thunder e.g Chinese weaponry, Russian engine.
4: Had the PAF worked on a proposal for western engine, radar and weapons for traditionally western equipped Air forces, the Gulf Arabs might have invested into such a development like the Emaritis did with the Desert Falcon.

I agree it's not the Arabs fault. When PAF says that JF17 Thunder is made to the PAF requirements (sanctions free even if it means a slightly lower performance), than the PAF should realize, their requirements are not the requirements of Emaritis or Saudis.

i believe the arabs primary reason to buy western equipment is not purely quality only but political backing that they will get in return

 

[CriticalThought]

Your humility is really appreciated, and you have raised very valid points. Let me see if @The Eagle can open up a PM, I will try to answer you there.

Hey don't forget us poor souls!!!!

 

[krash]

There is nothing wrong with being Air Commodore, and he might have extraordinary skills in other areas, but like me, he doesn't seem to be a fluent speaker, hence a poor choice for the job. If you can't sell a bad product, it's understandable but if you can't sell an otherwise excellent product because of a bad salesman, that is just unfortunate.

Such examples of selecting wrong people for a highly public job tell a different story than all the talk of "merit" based system.

Never said there was. My uncle is a distinguished Air Commodore (R). The point instead was that a man trained and built throughout his life to be a fighter pilot, one of the most specialised functions in all of history, is suddenly standing in front of you as a marketing rep. Not a guy who spent his life gearing up to be a marketing rep, I mean all those proffs and degrees obviously hold nothing over the PAF. It gets even worse when you give them administrative powers outside of the military apparatus, e.g. manufacturing i.e. the JF-17, HIT, AWC, etc. This mentality of our military where they actually believe that they are the all in alls of/for everything needs to be booted. They need to be shown that out of their element they are completely useless, as is everyone else. And that these bloody civilians can teach them a thing or two. After all, jis ka kaam, usi ko sanjhay.

Isnt Air Commodore = Army Brig ?

Guy of that rank cant even speak english?

Well more like the colonial legacy English. Tbh, most of our personnel have a pretty funny command over the language. It's only natural, they aren't educated for it (most of our people aren't), but then they're only exposed to that half eaten stagnated colonial military English, passed down over generations, which they pick up and use. While that angraizi is now probably a perfect fit within the military, it however is not outside of it. The problem is their pride in their angraizi prowess, after all whatever they do they do it best.

Can't forget those bloody chaps and their continuous future tenses.

Have you heard French Rafael guys or Swedish Gripen. Then you would understand. English is not our mother tongue. Let it be that way. Speaking fluent English doesn't qualify for anything. Your work leaves a mark.

It is not about his pronunciation. It is about his marketing skills. This is not a 5th grade classroom where whenever you find a job that needs to be done you look around in the same room and select the first kid who you think might be ok for it. A kid who in this case obviously lacked preparation. Those Rafael and Saab guys are fed their products. Heck, they would put a lot more effort in marketing a chewing gum than what our people are doing with a multi-million dollar product.

This officer would be perfectly fine in an administrative role within Pakistan, however not so in a marketing role outside of Pakistan trying to sell our wares.

Beg to differ here. Musharraf did not do well by appointing retired officers every which where. But that's a debate for elsewhere, I guess.

 

[Khafee]

Never said there was. My uncle is a distinguished Air Commodore (R). The point instead was that a man trained and built throughout his life to be a fighter pilot, one of the most specialised functions in all of history, is suddenly standing in front of you as a marketing rep. Not a guy who spent his life gearing up to be a marketing rep, I mean all those proffs and degrees obviously hold nothing over the PAF. It gets even worse when you give them administrative powers outside of the military apparatus, e.g. manufacturing i.e. the JF-17, HIT, AWC, etc. This mentality of our military where they actually believe that they are the all in alls of/for everything needs to be booted. They need to be shown that out of their element they are completely useless, as is everyone else. And that these bloody civilians can teach them a thing or two. After all, jis ka kaam, usi ko sanjhay.

When I speak to a sales rep, and a uniformed officer (who is in civil clothes), it takes 2 seconds to figure out where he is coming from. The idiot has never felt his balls in his mouth at 9g, and here he is trying to blow sunshine up my behind.

A fighter pilot, conversing with another, will be a straight no-BS conv, over in 10mins. That is what military men want, not the song and dance, 2.5~3hr "film al hindi." Get to the point, and get out.

Your uncle may have "ZERO" marketing skills, but the potential market that the JFT caters to, requires men like him.

Nobody, on this forum might agree with me, but that is just fine by me.

 

[ziaulislam]

there is nothing wrong in marketing skills of anyone when it comes to thunder
they probably just need to keep their website updated and make a good videos with updated stats, both of which i doubt will matter directly

the problem is market is very tough, there are over dozen different options each of them come with credit backing and politicalpush, even the thunder has many chinese competition which will have more credit backing, so honestly i will be surprised if we get more exports and it will mean exceptional good performance

the important niche countries are those who kept large number of mig21, as smaller air forces are moving towards basic/advance trainers, i was very hopeful for Egypt but i guess it will not happen

 

[Khafee]

there is nothing wrong in marketing skills of anyone when it comes to thunder
they probably just need to keep their website updated and make a good videos with updated stats, both of which i doubt will matter directly

the problem is market is very tough, there are over dozen different options each of them come with credit backing and politicalpush, even the thunder has many chinese competition which will have more credit backing, so honestly i will be surprised if we get more exports and it will mean exceptional good performance

the important niche countries are those who kept large number of mig21, as smaller air forces are moving towards basic/advance trainers, i was very hopeful for Egypt but i guess it will not happen

A Dual seater, is the best marketing tool. One should have been made, right from day one. Anyone interested in buying the JFT, throw them in it, and take it for a two hour spin.

 

[Raider 21]

When I speak to a sales rep, and a uniformed officer (who is in civil clothes), it takes 2 seconds to figure out where he is coming from. The idiot has never felt his balls in his mouth at 9g, and here he is trying to blow sunshine up my behind.

A fighter pilot, conversing with another, will be a straight no-BS conv, over in 10mins. That is what military men want, not the song and dance, 2.5~3hr "film al hindi." Get to the point, and get out.

Your uncle may have "ZERO" marketing skills, but the potential market that the JFT caters to, requires men like him.

Nobody, on this forum might agree with me, but that is just fine by me.

And incredibly weird to have an air force officer selling a product, PAC should have their own man doing sales (a bloody civilian)....not an Air Commodore who is on a rotational duty, but I'm sure the man would rather prefer commanding a base at that rank and flying occasionally with the guys.

 

[araz]

Your humility is really appreciated, and you have raised very valid points. Let me see if @The Eagle can open up a PM, I will try to answer you there.

If I may interject. The following is my opinion on the matter.
The Arab nations do have a process of consideration and evaluations of their products. I know of this sort of second hand from some one who was in the UAE armed forces and had close connetions with the decision makers.
However there remains an element of support which is sought from the foreign buyers in return for arms. There is also a certain amount of mistrust amongst the UAE from both Iran and even the House of Saud and UAE decision makers take developments in those countries as a guide line to formulate theor decisions.
However these foreign powers are now becoming a hinderance and the decision makers themselves are weary of their influence. The problem is in finding alternative sources as well as trying to establish local industry to gain independence from foreigners. There are significant hurdles due to lack of sufficiently trianed man power and infrastructure building. The Arabs for obvious reasons want the best for their forces but the best is far too complex to replicate and produce locally.
I think Khafee can take over from here to state what has been done by UAE armed forces as they do have a lot of work on going which I am not aware of. I know of their forays into MALE building as well as manufacturing of Corvettes. The issue is what does the UAE armed forces perceive as their goal and what limits are there on those aspirations.
We have to understand what JFT is to be able to unserstand the lack of interest from Mid Eastern buyers. Essentially we have a work in progress mainly to fulfill our needs and develop an industrial setup. We did not have a twin seater and these forces would definitely require a twin seater. Secondly the UAE would want a product which can be married to their current arsenal which we will not be allowed to do. We will therefore have to provide them with Chinese arsenal which will further complicate their acquisition process. Plus there have been quality issues with the Chinese and to assure them of a sustained certifiable produce we still have some way to go. I underatand the utility of JFT as a budget fighter but perhaps block 3 may be where we will get interest from Mid eastern buyers. PAC has slowly developed a footprint in the mid eastern countries. Whether we establish it on a more sound basis with block 3 or with a subsequrnt product remains to be seen
A

 

[fatman17]

Alan Warnes
Nice to catch up with Sqn Ldr Yasir and Zeeshan the JF-17 demo pilots during last display day on Thursday. Both fly with the Tail Choppers Sqn during normal working hours. https://t.co/F89ZFRY87Z

 

[Maxpane]

class

 

[VCheng]

a product which can be married to their current arsenal which we will not be allowed to do.

This will be a key factor in the future as warfare is increasingly networked.

 

[BATMAN]

Pakistan have strained diplomatic relations with Arabs.. why everyone is ignoring that issue?
Pakistan have made its choices... its game over, chapter closed, now move on!

 

[Mrc]

Pakistan have strained diplomatic relations with Arabs.. why everyone is ignoring that issue?
Pakistan have made its choices... its game over, chapter closed, now move on!

Saudis are coming to invest 20 billion in cpec... army chief and prime minister are due in saudia on 21st... stained??

 

[BATMAN]

Saudis are coming to invest 20 billion in cpec... army chief and prime minister are due in saudia on 21st... stained??

Seems unbelievable, but even if Saudis come back, those forces who did sabotage once, they would surely surface back.