JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[Windjammer]

Smoke can bee seen in certain environments much more than in others. If you look at the previous air shows in Zuhai there will be smoke as well.
A

Yes i agree ,Does it impact on overall characteristic of jet means more smokey means more chances of getting locked down or subject to SAM`s .
IMO as an Engineer i believe the engine is burning too much unburnt fuel or consuming Lubrication during certain performances .It will be interesting to know if we know something about fuel mix for JF17 as i imagine higher Octane numbers can solve some of the problem also ECU unit needs tune up/ settings at certain throttle modes . Bear with my ignorance for Jet Engines but still it depends upon compression and basic rule for ignition remains .Fuel /Air /Ignition .

Guys, don't read too much into it, this is the next generation Russian T-50 having a bad day,

 

[monitor]

Myanmar Air Force confirms purchase of JF-17 «Thunder» fighter jets
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Nov 7, 2016
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Photo by Patrick Hoeveler / flugrevue.de
The officers of the Myanmar Air Force confirmed that the purchase of a JF-17 «Thunder» fighter jets was approved. They said the order was part of a deal signed by China, Pakistan , and Myanmar.

That was reported by East Pendulum.

Earlier it was reported that Myanmar Air Force will seek to purchase 16 JF-17 Thunder multi-role plane. The JF-17 could be positioned as a viable replacement for Myanmar’s MiG-29, J-7M or Q-5 ground-attack aircraft.

The Joint Fighter-17 (JF-17) Thunder (also named FC-1 Xiaolong ) multi-role fighter was jointly developed by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) of China and is jointly manufactured by Pakistan and China.

The JF-17 / FC-1 is armed with GSh-23 dual-barrel 23mm cannon or GSh-30 dual-30mm cannon. The aircraft has seven hardpoints of which four are located under the wings, one under the fuselage and two mounted on the wingtips. It can carry up to 3,700kg payload.

 

[DJ_Viper]

Guys, don't read too much into it, this is the next generation Russian T-50 having a bad day,

View attachment 350102

Did they start to build this thing right after the WWII? Looking at the Carbon emission, it seems so. The smoke would attract heat seeking missiles from dozens of miles away, in addition to the sensors. I expected better from the Russians. This is like a modified air-frame called "stealthy". One of the main features of any Stealth aircraft is to reduce or hide its heat signature. The -22 and the -35, don't have heat "leaking" like here in the shape of smoke and they also cool off air before it exits the jet's nozzle.

 

[MastanKhan]

Did they start to build this thing right after the WWII? Looking at the Carbon emission, it seems so. The smoke would attract heat seeking missiles from dozens of miles away, in addition to the sensors. I expected better from the Russians. This is like a modified air-frame called "stealthy". One of the main features of any Stealth aircraft is to reduce or hide its heat signature. The -22 and the -35, don't have heat "leaking" like here in the shape of smoke and they also cool off air before it exits the jet's nozzle.

Hi,

Smoke is not a 'heat signature'---.

The invisible exhaust in itself is has a higher heat signature. Just remember your high school chemistry class experiment.

The invisible part of the benson burner flame is the hottest---.

Oh I am sorry---american schools---chemistry / physics is optional.

 

[aliyusuf]

Hi,

Smoke is not a 'heat signature'---.

The invisible exhaust in itself is has a higher heat signature. Just remember your high school chemistry class experiment.

The invisible part of the benson burner flame is the hottest---.

Oh I am sorry---american schools---chemistry / physics is optional.

Sir you are right. But if a fighter is leaving smoke trail like that ... wouldn't it be easier to visually spot such a target from miles away? Wouldn't that be some sort of a disadvantage?

 

[DJ_Viper]

Smoke is not a 'heat signature'---.

Oh I am sorry---american schools---chemistry / physics is optional.

Sir, I don't know where did you go for Pilot training school and how much "real" experience you have building advance sensors and understanding how they work. I don't have to publish my resume on here, but I can guarantee it, hot air has a heat signature (aka, the gas, Chemistry, Americans, and yes, we run the most advanced military industrial complex even when Chemistry and Physics is optional). Making stupid statements make no sense on here as you live in this country too and have benefited from the same system where Chemistry and Physics is optional. Thanks

 

[khanasifm]

For rd93 its in certain profiles smoky and others it not like f4 engines but its better than older rd-33

http://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/32630/why-do-jet-engines-smoke

high bass ratio is good for rd93 almost 50% but $3-4 million 2000/2400 hours life rd cannot be compared with $10-15 million latest p&W f100 on blk 52s with 4-5000 hours life
may be newer rd will address some short coming like like life up to 4k

 

[CHI RULES]

Sir, I said this in my first post. That the RD-93 version the Chinese bought per the PAF's requirements, came in with tweaks to increase MTBF and MTBO. The PAF told the Chinese the same thing the Malaysians told the Russians, that their requirements were 1.4* the MTBF vs. what it had been. So from the beginning, the PAF like the Malaysians, got a better engine. And I wouldn't say "zero" engine failures, there have been two JFTs crashed, primarily due to engine failures. But regardless, the RD-93 in PAF's possession is a different RD-93 that they put on Mig-29's initially over two decades ago. RD-93 MA, even though still an RD family engine, masks a lot of characteristics from Pratt & Whitney engines and should be a much better choice going forward for the PAF.

Sir as per my personal knowledge one crash was occurred due to design issues which were later on resolved and issues were proved as per inquiry. Further cause of second crash perhaps still not clear.

 

[DJ_Viper]

For rd93 its in certain profiles smoky and others it not like f4 engines but its better than older rd-33

Sir, your comparison of F-4 engines with RD-93 is correct. As the RD-93 was the first version of the Soviet military complex trying to follow American jet engine tech from the early 60's (F-4 is a good example as those were the engines the Russians tried to copy). The modular design was adapted by the Russians with two compartment engine, higher spool, and reduced combustion channels, resulting is what's known as 1990's RD-93.

But in reality, the first thousands or so of these engines sold till 2000, were really a 1960's tech. Today's engine (GE F404, P&W F-100 and high thrust, variable geometry engines used on the JFS and on the -35 are way ahead of any other engine out there (besides some French and British variants).

Sir as per my personal knowledge one crash was occurred due to design issues which were later on resolved and issues were proved as per inquiry. Further cause of second crash perhaps still not clear.

Sir, I don't have a reason to argue with you as I wasn't piloting either of these jets that crashed. However, I will share this with you, sort of basic engine / flight characteristics. If an engine is working, and the plane's avionics or other equipment fails, the plane's flight doesn't alter in a matter of a few seconds. In other words, the flight continues but its like a car without brakes. So there is more than enough time for a pilot to code in the ATC about a problem, that his throttle is jammed, or the aircraft is losing control, etc.

But if the engine fails and a jet gets into a jet wash, the pilot has no time. The flight control computers in advance aircraft like the F-18, F-15, the JSF and the -22 can overcome a jet wash. The remainder of the world is behind. Horizontally spinning at the rate of 2-3 swings with high gravity and high speed per second, would knockout the pilot in just a few seconds if he or she didn't eject and the plane will crash in just a matter of a few seconds, more than likely with an unconscious pilot. So if you keep this in mind, you would come to a conclusion that there was primary or secondary engine failure involved. Thanks

 

[TaimiKhan]

Dj viper, plz dont make assumptions if u dont have facts correctly. 1st crash had nothing to do with engine, there was prb with the wing which resulted in the crash. 2nd supposed crash has not even been confirmed yet, so we cant say wht it led to.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir, I don't know where did you go for Pilot training school and how much "real" experience you have building advance sensors and understanding how they work. I don't have to publish my resume on here, but I can guarantee it, hot air has a heat signature (aka, the gas, Chemistry, Americans, and yes, we run the most advanced military industrial complex even when Chemistry and Physics is optional). Making stupid statements make no sense on here as you live in this country too and have benefited from the same system where Chemistry and Physics is optional. Thanks

Hi,

Talk technical---and stop the B S---tell me what does the smoke has that would have the heat seeker get attracted to it---.

And what does the invisible exhaust has that would not attract the heat seeker missile.

Heat is heat---the seeker does not have an eye to see the smoke trail---it just senses the heat signature---.

And just because some aircraft don't have smoke---what do you thin---the invisible exhasut does not have any heat?

Sir you are right. But if a fighter is leaving smoke trail like that ... wouldn't it be easier to visually spot such a target from miles away? Wouldn't that be some sort of a disadvantage?

Hi,

It won't be visible to another pilot's naked eye---. You SA batteries have electronic eyes that look at the aircraft far out.

The question would be---if you are standing on the ground---and you see a smoke trail---do you think that somone on the ground can wave at his air force pilot in that direction---udhar jaa raha hai---.

 

[DJ_Viper]

Hi,

Talk technical---and stop the B S---tell me what does the smoke has that would have the heat seeker get attracted to it---.

And what does the invisible exhaust has that would not attract the heat seeker missile.

Heat is heat---the seeker does not have an eye to see the smoke trail---it just senses the heat signature---.

And just because some aircraft don't have smoke---what do you thin---the invisible exhasut does not have any heat?
.

Sir, I think you need to watch how you address people. I've read your posts, you are old and grumpy. I'd like to give you the respect a Sr. Citizen deserves but you got to control your mood swings. I don't know about you, but I do know I've earned a lot of respect through hard work and taking various risks in life.

Now I am going to address you with respect. If you lose control in the next message, you'll be taking to yourself when you address me, as I won't respond.

Common question, what is Carbon made out of when its released through Combustion?

Chemistry wise, it is a by product of the burnt fuel particles. When you do a BBQ, and fire up the grill, after cooking, what's left? Burnt Coal, aka, the Carbon. This is why the "Black Smoke" gets out also.

Black Smoke, means it has hot Carbon particles just like burnt hot Coal after the BBQ. So what does hot gas, supported by the black Coal particles does? The Coal adds more (and longer lasting) hot particles to the air behind the jet. Which in turn, helps a missile seeker looking for the Heat by keeping the hot air trail hotter..

The Heat Seeker missile tracks and targets a jet's exhaust heat. The Heat is the Heat (and I am not sure if you've ever flown a Jet, may be you have), the air up there is pretty cold. So the gas that comes out of a jet, loses its heat pretty quickly, due to outside air being close to, or in the minus Celsius depending on the altitude.

But if you added Coal/Carbon particles with "extended release heat capability", the missile even at a BVR distance could follow the trail of hot smoke with hot Carbon particles in it. There are also new sensors that allow a missile to not only look for the exhaust's hot air, but also various emissions too (including Carbon). These new techs are being tested at the Skunk Works with many more new tech. Thanks

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir, I think you need to watch how you address people. I've read your posts, you are old and grumpy. I'd like to give you the respect a Sr. Citizen deserves but you got to control your mood swings. I don't know about you, but I do know I've earned a lot of respect through hard work and taking various risks in life.

Now I am going to address you with respect. If you lose control in the next message, you'll be taking to yourself when you address me, as I won't respond.

Common question, what is Carbon made out of when its released through Combustion?

Chemistry wise, it is a by product of the burnt fuel particles. When you do a BBQ, and fire up the grill, after cooking, what's left? Burnt Coal, aka, the Carbon. This is why the "Black Smoke" gets out also.

Black Smoke, means it has hot Carbon particles just like burnt hot Coal after the BBQ. So what does hot gas, supported by the black Coal particles does? The Coal adds more (and longer lasting) hot particles to the air behind the jet. Which in turn, helps a missile seeker looking for the Heat by keeping the hot air trail hotter..

The Heat Seeker missile tracks and targets a jet's exhaust heat. The Heat is the Heat (and I am not sure if you've ever flown a Jet, may be you have), the air up there is pretty cold. So the gas that comes out of a jet, loses its heat pretty quickly, due to outside air being close to, or in the minus Celsius depending on the altitude.

But if you added Coal/Carbon particles with "extended release heat capability", the missile even at a BVR distance could follow the trail of hot smoke with hot Carbon particles in it. There are also new sensors that allow a missile to not only look for the exhaust's hot air, but also various emissions too (including Carbon). These new techs are being tested at the Skunk Works with many more new tech. Thanks

Hi,

Okay---that is understandable---you are bringing out the technical aspect---basically---then the seeker will be lost somewhere in the "hot smoke trail " .

So---according to what you are saying---the missile will follow the path of the smoke trail---so when does it lock its target---or is it just riding the smoke trail---like surfing on the ocean waves---?

Or is it like a long rope---that the missile grabs onto---and keeps climbing that trail.

There are also new sensors that allow a missile to not only look for the exhaust's hot air, but also various emissions too (including Carbon). These new techs are being tested at the Skunk Works with many more new tech. Thanks

Hi,

Those sniffers sensors are very old technology---. If you had read Tom Clancy in 1980's---you would would have known that they have existed for a long time now.

 

[DJ_Viper]

Okay---that is understandable---you are bringing out the technical aspect---basically---then the seeker will be lost somewhere in the "hot smoke trail " .

So---according to what you are saying---the missile will follow the path of the smoke trail---so when does it lock its target---or is it just riding the smoke trail---like surfing on the ocean waves---?

Sir, missiles take a lot of money to build during R&D. If an AIM or AMRAAM type of a missile's seeker is so weak that it gets lost in the trail, then that's not a missile. It should be called "fire works" instead. Just saying.

A missile knows the trail as part of its guidance system following the direction towards the Heat source. When it comes close to a certain distance, the Warhead becomes active and either a LASER based (new missiles) or a Proximity Fuse based lock is updated (older missiles, run on a timer) factored in by the missiles internal computer, estimating distance to the heat source. Its called "missile armed and ready for explosion". Within a certain distance (let's say, 10 feet for discussion's sake), the warhead is boosted and detonated.

The armor piercing shrapnel with HE hits the target and puts a major and various secondary small holes into the air-frame, either flat out destroying the engine and the air frame through the exhaust, or, putting many holes into the air frame and damaging the entire aircraft and other systems, resulting in a damaged plane without flight control and a crash, or flat-out blow up of the target fully, or partially, either way the jet is history. Thanks

Those sniffers sensors are very old technology---. If you had read Tom Clancy in 1980's---you would would have known that they have existed for a long time now.

Sir, there is no "sniffing" into the advance tech. You can continue on with your understanding. Both, Mr. Clancy and you, are about 4 decades behind. Thanks

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir, missiles take a lot of money to build during R&D. If an AIM or AMRAAM type of a missile's seeker is so weak that it gets lost in the trail, then that's not a missile. It should be called "fire works" instead. Just saying.

A missile knows the trail as part of its guidance system following the direction towards the Heat source. When it comes close to a certain distance, the Warhead becomes active and either a LASER based (new missiles) or a Proximity Fuse based lock is updated (older missiles, run on a timer) factored in by the missiles internal computer, estimating distance to the heat source. Its called "missile armed and ready for explosion". Within a certain distance (let's say, 10 feet for discussion's sake), the warhead is boosted and detonated.

The armor piercing shrapnel with HE hits the target and puts a major and various secondary small holes into the air-frame, either flat out destroying the engine and the air frame through the exhaust, or, putting many holes into the air frame and damaging the entire aircraft and other systems, resulting in a damaged plane without flight control and a crash, or flat-out blow up of the target fully, or partially, either way the jet is history. Thanks



Sir, there is no "sniffing" into the advance tech. You can continue on with your understanding. Both, Mr. Clancy and you, are about 4 decades behind. Thanks

Hi,

So---the missile is following the path of the HOT EXHAUST PARTICLES that were emitted in the smoke.

Damn---had not heard that definition of a missile launch and lock definition prior to this---.