JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[Amigator]

that means 50+47 = 97 ..... 17-247 and made this year in feb

Not in Feb. It's block 2.

 

[araz]

Why are we stuck here? Why not we want to have better technology? We are satisfied with 3.5 generation jf-17. No body wants to have a better engine, better ew suit, better hmds .we are just satisfied with older technology.everyone is saying jf-17 is the best aircraft in the world. No it is not. Why we cannot add systems which are above 4th genereation to our aircraft.everything we buy is older technology.we are not producing better things the things about we can say these are worlds best.

1. We are stuck here for a few reasons.
A; We dont have money to buy better tech.
B; Our industry is not advanced enough to produce it and the powers that have the tech are either not giving it or asking for a high price which we can not afford.
C; The proare going to dont have the relevant technology in a sufficiently reliable state to be incorporated into the JFT.
2. JF17 is a 4th generation aircraft. The generation game is tricky as the chinese nomenclature starts from the Western second generation(ie their 1st gen is the world's second generation). The progress made in block 3 will bring it in the ball park of 4.5 generation which would be a reasonably good achievement from a cash deprived AF.
3. The reasons for not having a better engine and EW suits and HMDS are the same as the reasons given in No1. We have been stung badly by the West and the US and as such they have become unreliable as partners. There is therefore a certain reluctance in getting Western goodies which may be sanction prone and Western providers will restrict where and to whom we sell our planes which is another reason to not look towards the West.The Chinese have been progressing but their progress has been slow as they have been playing catch up with the West. The Russians also eithershow reluctance in dealing with us due to our finances, or do not have the products which we seek or they are not of sufficiently good quality for us to buy it .
3. When your sources are not sharing the same vision as you and your interests do not coincide you have to indulge in commercial ventures from second tier providers. These and even Western providers will say to you "We will let you have this product which you want but first you have to buy X amounts of the earlier product. You sometimes find that the earlier product is essentially right for the job and the next iteration will be really good therefore it seems like a good deal for you. So you buy it to have the option of upgrading to the later productan the provider having an excuse to supply you with products which the world powers do not want you to have on ground of upgrading the existing system. It is part of the politics of buying and selling weapons. But mostly it is what is available to you at a price which you can afford.
4. JFT will have the bells and whistles which we need when the technology becomes available to us. We have limited suppliers who ar ewilling to share technology with us so we have to wait till their technology gets upto a standard we find acceptable and then buy it. It may not be the best but it is what is amongst the best and we can have the luxury to make it better and sub assemble it as well.
The JFT is a blessing in disguise for us. it will open so many avenues. What PAF faces is a problem with many of the developing countries and JFT is an escape route from the clutches of the defence mafia.
A

Kindly share a leap or bound made by that nation....

Handouts from US tax payers (including weapons) don't count

US is super power today.... tomorrow it may not b ....

We will be here... and they will be here... don't worry

That is a bad post because it underestimates the opponent. You have to know that the Israeli defence establishment produces many high class products which even the US buys from them. For instance the CFTs for the Bl 50/52 are Israeli manufactured as are the wings of the 15s. They have been producing an aircraft(And the Lavi would have rivalled the 16s if given half a chance) and have access to the best that the US has to offer. They have top notch AESA radars, ABM systems and many other systems to boost. They would have put their own Radars and electronics into their Soufas if it had not been for US restrictions. I think underestimating your opponent is a grave error and you should never do it. I am certainly not enamoured with them but respect the Israeli setup for achieving what they have achieved through sheer hard work and good working ethos which we could well emulate instead of our lazy "oh sab kuch chalta hai yaar" attitude. We will only get there if we start working really hard and with dedication.
A

 

[fatman17]

@araz sb, actually the technology is being made available, Turkey, Italy, Russia, and remember China is catching up very very fast v. The west. Just bcuz it dosnt say made in the USA, it dosnt mean that other countries are producing inferior material. Our military planners still haven't given up their love for USA products.

 

[fatman17]

The JFT is a very successful multi lateral program, China, Russia, Pakistan, Brazil, Ukraine etc have contributed in different ways to this program.

 

[The Accountant]

1. We are stuck here for 3 reasons.
A; We dont have money to buy better tech.
B; Our industry is not advanced enough to produce it and the powers that have the tech are either not giving it or asking for a high price which we can not afford.
2. JF17 is a 4th generation aircraft. The generation game is tricky as the chinese nomenclature starts from the Western second generation(ie their 1st gen is the world's second generation). The progress made in block 3 will bring it in the ball park of 4.5 generation which would be a reasonably good achievement from a cash deprived AF.
3. The reasons for not having a better engine and EW suits and HMDS are the same as the reasons given in No1. We have been stung badly by the West and the US and as such they have become unreliable as partners. There is therefore a certain reluctance in getting Western goodies which may be sanction prone and Western providers will restrict where and to whom we sell our planes which is another reason to not look towards the West.The Chinese have been progressing but their progress has been slow as they have been playing catch up with the West. The Russians also either do not have the products which we seek or they are not of sufficiently good quality for us to buy it.
3. When your sources are not sharing the same vision as you and your interests do not coincide you have to indulge in commercial ventures from second tier providers. These and even Western providers will say to you "We will let you have this product which you want but first you have to buy X amounts of the earlier product. You sometimes find that the earlier product is essentially right for the job and the next iteration will be really good therefore it seems like a good deal for you. So you buy it to have the option of upgrading to the later productan the provider having an excuse to supply you with products which the world powers do not want you to have on ground of upgrading the existing system. It is part of the politics of buying and selling weapons. But mostly it is what is available to you at a price which you can afford.
4. JFT will have the bells and whistles which we need when the technology becomes available to us. We have limited suppliers who ar ewilling to share technology with us so we have to wait till their technology gets upto a standard we find acceptable and then buy it. It may not be the best but it is what is amongst the best and we can have the luxury to make it better and sub assemble it as well.
The JFT is a blessing in disguise for us. it will open so many avenues. What PAF faces is a problem with many of the developing countries and JFT is an escape route from the clutches of the defence mafia.
A


That is a bad post because it underestimates the opponent. You have to know that the Israeli defence establishment produces many high class products which even the US buys from them. For instance the CFTs for the Bl 50/52 are Israeli manufactured as are the wings of the 15s. They have been producing an aircraft(And the Lavi would have rivalled the 16s if given half a chance) and have access to the best that the US has to offer. They have top notch AESA radars, ABM systems and many other systems to boost. They would have put their own Radars and electronics into their Soufas if it had not been for US restrictions. I think underestimating your opponent is a grave error and you should never do it. I am certainly not enamoured with them but respect the Israeli setup for achieving what they have achieved through sheer hard work and good working ethos which we could well emulate instead of our lazy "oh sab kuch chalta hai yaar" attitude. We will only get there if we start working really hard and with dedication.
A

I feel your post is slightly incomplete ...

I would like to highlight that while US had F15s they manufactured F16s, while they had F22, rather than giving it strike capability they manufactured F35 so it is always a mixture of high and low end aircrafts ...

Thunder was never meant to be the front-end or high-end air superiority fighter of Pakistan, it was never meant to be Grippen for Pakistan ... Grippen is multi-role plus air superiority fighter for Sweden whereas for Pakistan the role is assigned to F16s ...

For Pakistan we had 3 objectives for Thunder :

1) a low cost fighter we can field in numbers.
2) Fighter should be BVR capable, Night strike capability and Networking capability
3) Fighter should have high availability rates
4) It should be free from foreign clutches and it should be owned by us
5) It should be true multi role to give Pakistan capabilities not available earlier such as advance antiship operations (messages are absolute), anti radiation role and air defence role

Within all above parameters THunder has performed very well and now we have the base from where we can inch forward to more advance fighter aircraft maunfacturing ...

JF17 was concieved from the financial limitations we had but within that financial limitations thunders has performed beyond expectations ...

I think with the passage of time it will open other options for us for example we are planning to have AESA in blk 3 whereas our vipers are still without AESA and same is the case with anti radiation missiles, anti ship missiles and many other such capabilties which we got from thunder only ...

 

[araz]

I feel your post is slightly incomplete ...

I would like to highlight that while US had F15s they manufactured F16s, while they had F22, rather than giving it strike capability they manufactured F35 so it is always a mixture of high and low end aircrafts ...

Thunder was never meant to be the front-end or high-end air superiority fighter of Pakistan, it was never meant to be Grippen for Pakistan ... Grippen is multi-role plus air superiority fighter for Sweden whereas for Pakistan the role is assigned to F16s ...

For Pakistan we had 3 objectives for Thunder :

1) a low cost fighter we can field in numbers.
2) Fighter should be BVR capable, Night strike capability and Networking capability
3) Fighter should have high availability rates
4) It should be free from foreign clutches and it should be owned by us
5) It should be true multi role to give Pakistan capabilities not available earlier such as advance antiship operations (messages are absolute), anti radiation role and air defence role

Within all above parameters THunder has performed very well and now we have the base from where we can inch forward to more advance fighter aircraft maunfacturing ...

JF17 was concieved from the financial limitations we had but within that financial limitations thunders has performed beyond expectations ...

I think with the passage of time it will open other options for us for example we are planning to have AESA in blk 3 whereas our vipers are still without AESA and same is the case with anti radiation missiles, anti ship missiles and many other such capabilties which we got from thunder only ...

I thought my post was in response to something the other poster had asked. Thank you anyways for your addendum.
A

 

[Chak Bamu]

JF 17 BLK 3 ???View attachment 445188

Disregard the silhouette. It can not be taken as an indication of JF-17 Block III design. At least not yet.

 

[araz]

@araz sb, actually the technology is being made available, Turkey, Italy, Russia, and remember China is catching up very very fast v. The west. Just bcuz it dosnt say made in the USA, it dosnt mean that other countries are producing inferior material. Our military planners still haven't given up their love for USA products.

Sir Fatman17 saheb.
I think my point was in relation to the limitations we have with our buying power and also sometimes the providers limitations. I fully agree we have seen significant progress in certain fields from China and indeed Turkey , but our financial limitations still hamper us. Secondly, for certain technologies like HMD we currently to the best of my knowledge have no reliable source for provisions.
Our military planners love for all products US is dictated in part at least from the PAFperspective because it gives the biggest bang for the buck. We have also gotten tied in on account of having bought products and developed infrastructure for them. For instance if we had procured M2ks instead we would normally have carried on and probably still stuck to the M2k development plan or bought the Rafale. I am well aware of all the "incentives" that have been given for buying US products as well, but the fact is that this remains the case in any procurement from any foreign buyers. It is not without reason that one of our politicians at one time went around with 6-10 Chinese girls in his entourage courtesy of people who invited him.
A

 

[CriticalThought]

Sir Fatman17 saheb.
I think my point was in relation to the limitations we have with our buying power and also sometimes the providers limitations. I fully agree we have seen significant progress in certain fields from China and indeed Turkey , but our financial limitations still hamper us. Secondly, for certain technologies like HMD we currently to the best of my knowledge have no reliable source for provisions.
Our military planners love for all products US is dictated in part at least from the PAFperspective because it gives the biggest bang for the buck. We have also gotten tied in on account of having bought products and developed infrastructure for them. For instance if we had procured M2ks instead we would normally have carried on and probably still stuck to the M2k development plan or bought the Rafale. I am well aware of all the "incentives" that have been given for buying US products as well, but the fact is that this remains the case in any procurement from any foreign buyers. It is not without reason that one of our politicians at one time went around with 6-10 Chinese girls in his entourage courtesy of people who invited him.
A

Sir HMD/S is being developed for Thunder in South Africa. Insha Allah Block 3 will have it along with HOBS WVR. @denel @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

 

[araz]

Sir HMD/S is being developed for Thunder in South Africa. Insha Allah Block 3 will have it along with HOBS WVR. @denel @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

InshaaAllah. However lets wait and see where it comes from. As per BilalKhan 777 the South African product is not ready. So let us wait and see. We may have to look west wards again!!!
A

 

[Chak Bamu]

1. We are stuck here for 3 reasons.
A; We dont have money to buy better tech.
B; Our industry is not advanced enough to produce it and the powers that have the tech are either not giving it or asking for a high price which we can not afford.
2. JF17 is a 4th generation aircraft. The generation game is tricky as the chinese nomenclature starts from the Western second generation(ie their 1st gen is the world's second generation). The progress made in block 3 will bring it in the ball park of 4.5 generation which would be a reasonably good achievement from a cash deprived AF.
3. The reasons for not having a better engine and EW suits and HMDS are the same as the reasons given in No1. We have been stung badly by the West and the US and as such they have become unreliable as partners. There is therefore a certain reluctance in getting Western goodies which may be sanction prone and Western providers will restrict where and to whom we sell our planes which is another reason to not look towards the West.The Chinese have been progressing but their progress has been slow as they have been playing catch up with the West. The Russians also either do not have the products which we seek or they are not of sufficiently good quality for us to buy it.
3. When your sources are not sharing the same vision as you and your interests do not coincide you have to indulge in commercial ventures from second tier providers. These and even Western providers will say to you "We will let you have this product which you want but first you have to buy X amounts of the earlier product. You sometimes find that the earlier product is essentially right for the job and the next iteration will be really good therefore it seems like a good deal for you. So you buy it to have the option of upgrading to the later productan the provider having an excuse to supply you with products which the world powers do not want you to have on ground of upgrading the existing system. It is part of the politics of buying and selling weapons. But mostly it is what is available to you at a price which you can afford.
4. JFT will have the bells and whistles which we need when the technology becomes available to us. We have limited suppliers who ar ewilling to share technology with us so we have to wait till their technology gets upto a standard we find acceptable and then buy it. It may not be the best but it is what is amongst the best and we can have the luxury to make it better and sub assemble it as well.
The JFT is a blessing in disguise for us. it will open so many avenues. What PAF faces is a problem with many of the developing countries and JFT is an escape route from the clutches of the defence mafia.
A


That is a bad post because it underestimates the opponent. You have to know that the Israeli defence establishment produces many high class products which even the US buys from them. For instance the CFTs for the Bl 50/52 are Israeli manufactured as are the wings of the 15s. They have been producing an aircraft(And the Lavi would have rivalled the 16s if given half a chance) and have access to the best that the US has to offer. They have top notch AESA radars, ABM systems and many other systems to boost. They would have put their own Radars and electronics into their Soufas if it had not been for US restrictions. I think underestimating your opponent is a grave error and you should never do it. I am certainly not enamoured with them but respect the Israeli setup for achieving what they have achieved through sheer hard work and good working ethos which we could well emulate instead of our lazy "oh sab kuch chalta hai yaar" attitude. We will only get there if we start working really hard and with dedication.
A

Thanks for enunciating these points so very well Araz sb. Posts of this quality are becoming more infrequent.

May I use this post to remind enthusiasts that in the end analysis, it all boils down to our own economy. If we are bent on competing with Indian defense spending, our economy must grow faster than the Indian economy. This can not happen unless our institutions function aligned with our constitution, and each of those does its own job instead of others'. Growth comes from investment in Human Resources, infrastructure, and business growth. These in turn drive foreign investments. But it all falls down if stability (political & hence policy) is lacking or perceived to be lacking. This is principally why India has out-grown Pakistan for the past 23-24 years. We can do it better, but only if we have cooler head.

JF-17 is a success and it shall drive our defense industry growth for many years to come by fulfilling our needs and also earn export earnings. This is the only way we can afford to compete with India, at least in terms of number of decent (or half-decent, as some think) aircraft that we can put up in the air.

 

[CriticalThought]

Thanks for enunciating these points so very well Araz sb. Posts of this quality are becoming more infrequent.

May I use this post to remind enthusiasts that in the end analysis, it all boils down to our own economy. If we are bent on competing with Indian defense spending, our economy must grow faster than the Indian economy. This can not happen unless our institutions function aligned with our constitution, and each of those does its own job instead of others'. Growth comes from investment in Human Resources, infrastructure, and business growth. These in turn drive foreign investments. But it all falls down if stability (political & hence policy) is lacking or perceived to be lacking. This is principally why India has out-grown Pakistan for the past 23-24 years. We can do it better, but only if we have cooler head.

JF-17 is a success and it shall drive our defense industry growth for many years to come by fulfilling our needs and also earn export earnings. This is the only way we can afford to compete with India, at least in terms of number of decent (or half-decent, as some think) aircraft that we can put up in the air.

There is nothing wrong with destabilizing India and bringing down their economy either.

 

[Awan68]

Thanks for enunciating these points so very well Araz sb. Posts of this quality are becoming more infrequent.

May I use this post to remind enthusiasts that in the end analysis, it all boils down to our own economy. If we are bent on competing with Indian defense spending, our economy must grow faster than the Indian economy. This can not happen unless our institutions function aligned with our constitution, and each of those does its own job instead of others'. Growth comes from investment in Human Resources, infrastructure, and business growth. These in turn drive foreign investments. But it all falls down if stability (political & hence policy) is lacking or perceived to be lacking. This is principally why India has out-grown Pakistan for the past 23-24 years. We can do it better, but only if we have cooler head.

JF-17 is a success and it shall drive our defense industry growth for many years to come by fulfilling our needs and also earn export earnings. This is the only way we can afford to compete with India, at least in terms of number of decent (or half-decent, as some think) aircraft that we can put up in the air.

Your comparison between Pakistan and India seems to ignore several ground facts due to which our institution cannot remain in their own domains.
1) several major international players have been after us since the 70's and they didnt let us have a moment of peace, just that we have existed uptill now as a free nation is a miracle in itself when u analyze the number and level of our enemies.
2) one cannot feign stability out of thin air, economic stability goes to the back of the list when the very existance of one's country is always under threat.
3) trillons are invested by those international players to make sure the dirt of the nation ends up in most of the civil sectors which propells the army to intervene when they can.
4) India has had no major power ever lust after its blood and due to that they practically have had stability since their conception while we have been subject to ill intent of major powers due to the islamic ideology of the conception of our nation, just as Quaid said " hamien ais mulk ko qaim rakhne ke liye abhi aur bht qurbanian dena honge". When someone like Quaid says some thing like this he was probably not just orating.

 

[araz]

There is nothing wrong with destabilizing India and bringing down their economy either.

Hello!!! where did this come from? You dont destroy someone else's house if you dont have the capacity to deal with your own. There are so many flaws in your argument I dont even know where to start.
Needless to say when your own house is in tatters you sort it out first. Even to destroy someone else's house(I dont condone this even for a secondand find it abhorrent!!!!!!) you need internal stability and control.
If you read indian history they have dealt with the Kashmir insurgency, the Sikh insurgency, The Problems with the marxists, Trouble with the harijans and Hindu muslim problems while advancing to their current state which is enviable. Is that not enough?
On Pakistan's part we were indisciplined and resorted to looting and rape instead of concerted efforts to liberate kashmir resulting in Indian rallying around in 48. Bought big cars with the 500million excess in our budget instead of a steel mill from Germany in the 50s, failed to understand the need for having basic ammunation and even tanks being built in house in 50s and 60s resulting in running out of ammunition in 65. Went to sleep when the Chinese offered us a joint attack relying on Kennedy to solve our problems for us. And usurped power from East pakistan when they had electoral majority and resulted in losing half the country. Can we not see the shameful attitude of our own countrymen in our own woes.
TODAY I STAND TRUELY ASHAMED THAT MY COUNTRY MAN AND YOUNGER BROTHER HAS FILED SUCH A DISPICABLE POST.
A

 

[CriticalThought]

Hello!!! where did this come from? You dont destroy someone else's house if you dont have the capacity to deal with your own. There are so many flaws in your argument I dont even know where to start.
Needless to say when your own house is in tatters you sort it out first. Even to destroy someone else's house(I dont condone this even for a secondand find it abhorrent!!!!!!) you need internal stability and control.
If you read indian history they have dealt with the Kashmir insurgency, the Sikh insurgency, The Problems with the marxists, Trouble with the harijans and Hindu muslim problems while advancing to their current state which is enviable. Is that not enough?
On Pakistan's part we were indisciplined and resorted to looting and rape instead of concerted efforts to liberate kashmir resulting in Indian rallying around in 48. Bought big cars with the 500million excess in our budget instead of a steel mill from Germany in the 50s, failed to understand the need for having basic ammunation and even tanks being built in house in 50s and 60s resulting in running out of ammunition in 65. Went to sleep when the Chinese offered us a joint attack relying on Kennedy to solve our problems for us. And usurped power from East pakistan when they had electoral majority and resulted in losing half the country. Can we not see the shameful attitude of our own countrymen in our own woes.
TODAY I STAND TRUELY ASHAMED THAT MY COUNTRY MAN AND YOUNGER BROTHER HAS FILED SUCH A DISPICABLE POST.
A

Nothing despicable about it. Think about why Badr started. When the enemy is trying to raise funds explicitly with the aim of buying weapons and threatening us, then it is our job to destroy it.