JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[krash]

3- We are not able to finance even a full squadron of Gen 4, who in his right mind thinks we will be able to buy more than 24 Gen 5's?

Or maybe we aren't financing a full squadron of gen 4 because we want to finance more gen 5s?

Could be a very simple cost/benefit analysis.

4- Gen 5 (in Pakistan's case due to limited numbers) will only provide a psychological advantage and act as a force multiplier, real war would still be fought by Gen 4 and Gen 3 fighters that we can afford in relatively large numbers.

Remember the way those handful of F-104s shaped the 1965 war?

6 - We can't use F-16 to launch any stand-off munitions like Raad or CM-400, with J10 we get deep strike capability.

Enter JF-17 with extra fuel-cells and rumoured CFTs. Not saying that the JF-17 would fix it all but that it would suffice for now.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Exactly my point, they mostly work as force multipliers and psychological moral boosters, actual war is fought with lower-end work horses

Remember the way those handful of F-104s shaped the 1965 war?.

That would just add a few hundred miles of range, not increase the load carrying capacity, on the contrary adding more fuel will reduce weapons carrying capacity

Enter JF-17 with extra fuel-cells and rumoured CFTs. Not saying that the JF-17 would fix it all but that it would suffice for now.

 

[ghazi768]

That would just add a few hundred miles of range, not increase the load carrying capacity, on the contrary adding more fuel will reduce weapons carrying capacity

How will adding more fuel reduce weapons carrying capacity?

 

[ziaulislam]

you are thinking about a conventional full fledged war.... that's not happening unless its nuclear... and in that case even having a 1000 gen 4 fighters is not going to make much of difference as a meagre cruise missile will be carrying more destructive power your 1000 gen 4s combined....

in a limited war, you don't need 100s of first line fighters....we have 140 plus... that's sufficient for now...

my concerns ... what ever they are,,,, are not viz via india at all.....

sufficient for now as su 30 has low serviceability but when by 2025-27 IAF gets its house in order than even in limited war 3-4 days we will be in trouble, as cold start doctrine dictates rapid attrition of PAF (600-700 vs 150-200) followed with powerful thrust into Pakistan key regions with help of IAF. This will be followed immediately by a cease fire and talks from the place of strength before a nuclear escalation happens

If this happens because of limited strength PAF there would be incalculable loss to country moral, economics and future will to resist any diplomatic aggression or we will be constant fear of war, something that happened in 1970s

The only done side to this whole theory is when will it trigger a N war? the flaw here on Pakistani side is,
we think that India will take our bluff/threat for real, but imagine if they dont, will MAD be triggered so quickly within a few days, i doubt that, and problem is that Indians are starting to doubt that as well, hence emergence of cold start, but they realized that there IAF and troop mobility is not strong enough, hence recent surge in investment in these two key areas

The only way to prevent such an event is a "STRONG" air force. Look at Israel for example, they have nukes but they always emphasize on a very strong air force, disproportional strong from their non existing naval and rather limited land forces, even though they require more of the later two operationally of recent

I understand the fact that we have limited resources, what I dont understand is why those limited resources are disproportional spent on Army rather than air force, I am an amateur but still it makes me wonder, whether army is stuck in 90s and 80s when precision based ammunition were not present in our threat scenario and air force capabilities were kinda limited in destruction capabilities they had. we should learn from Iraq war.

 

[CriticalThought]

sufficient for now as su 30 has low serviceability but when by 2025-27 IAF gets its house in order than even in limited war 3-4 days we will be in trouble, as cold start doctrine dictates rapid attrition of PAF (600-700 vs 150-200) followed with powerful thrust into Pakistan key regions with help of IAF. This will be followed immediately by a cease fire and talks from the place of strength before a nuclear escalation happens

If this happens because of limited strength PAF there would be incalculable loss to country moral, economics and future will to resist any diplomatic aggression or we will be constant fear of war, something that happened in 1970s

The only done side to this whole theory is when will it trigger a N war? the flaw here on Pakistani side is,
we think that India will take our bluff/threat for real, but imagine if they dont, will MAD be triggered so quickly within a few days, i doubt that, and problem is that Indians are starting to doubt that as well, hence emergence of cold start, but they realized that there IAF and troop mobility is not strong enough, hence recent surge in investment in these two key areas

The only way to prevent such an event is a "STRONG" air force. Look at Israel for example, they have nukes but they always emphasize on a very strong air force, disproportional strong from their non existing naval and rather limited land forces, even though they require more of the later two operationally of recent

I understand the fact that we have limited resources, what I dont understand is why those limited resources are disproportional spent on Army rather than air force, I am an amateur but still it makes me wonder, whether army is stuck in 90s and 80s when precision based ammunition were not present in our threat scenario and air force capabilities were kinda limited in destruction capabilities they had. we should learn from Iraq war.

By 2025-27 we will have at least 200 JF-17s armed with latest tech, fifth gen planes, and on our way to indigenous production of 5+ gen. Fifth gen isn't just some feel good morale booster. The F-22 eats F-15s as appetizer. It has come out on top in 1:5 scenarios. Fifth gen is the equivalent of Nasr in the air. Acquiring these assets is going to need money and in the coming 5-8 years we will see how much truth the ACM's words hold.

Finally, I am quite sure the PAF has contingency plans for extreme events but I don't expect to ever find out what they are.

One more thing. A view of Indian CSD that is limited to Kargil like escalations is myopic and retrogressive. After recent statements, CSD has evolved to outright aerial assault via missiles and aircraft to deliver preemptive strikes on our nuclear delivery arsenal. This proves we aren't merely calling a bluff and the Indians take Nasr very seriously. In this context, BMD and AD is as much of a priority as a powerful airforce. And those systems also cost a LOT.

 

[The Accountant]

By 2025-27 we will have at least 200 JF-17s armed with latest tech, fifth gen planes, and on our way to indigenous production of 5+ gen. Fifth gen isn't just some feel good morale booster. The F-22 eats F-15s as appetizer. It has come out on top in 1:5 scenarios. Fifth gen is the equivalent of Nasr in the air. Acquiring these assets is going to need money and in the coming 5-8 years we will see how much truth the ACM's words hold.

Finally, I am quite sure the PAF has contingency plans for extreme events but I don't expect to ever find out what they are.

One more thing. A view of Indian CSD that is limited to Kargil like escalations is myopic and retrogressive. After recent statements, CSD has evolved to outright aerial assault via missiles and aircraft to deliver preemptive strikes on our nuclear delivery arsenal. This proves we aren't merely calling a bluff and the Indians take Nasr very seriously. In this context, BMD and AD is as much of a priority as a powerful airforce. And those systems also cost a LOT.

Slightly off topic but guys we have some extremly huge resources to finance our defense purchases ... just grab few high profile criminals and size there assets (you understand what i mean) ... Pakistan will not only settle their debt but will become a wealthy country ...

 

[ziaulislam]

By 2025-27 we will have at least 200 JF-17s armed with latest tech, fifth gen planes, and on our way to indigenous production of 5+ gen. Fifth gen isn't just some feel good morale booster. The F-22 eats F-15s as appetizer. It has come out on top in 1:5 scenarios. Fifth gen is the equivalent of Nasr in the air. Acquiring these assets is going to need money and in the coming 5-8 years we will see how much truth the ACM's words hold.

Finally, I am quite sure the PAF has contingency plans for extreme events but I don't expect to ever find out what they are.

One more thing. A view of Indian CSD that is limited to Kargil like escalations is myopic and retrogressive. After recent statements, CSD has evolved to outright aerial assault via missiles and aircraft to deliver preemptive strikes on our nuclear delivery arsenal. This proves we aren't merely calling a bluff and the Indians take Nasr very seriously. In this context, BMD and AD is as much of a priority as a powerful airforce. And those systems also cost a LOT.

everything PAF got was in brief period when Mushi was in power, his thinking let PAF get the funding it deserves for AWECS, Air tankers, Thunders, F-16s, SPADAs and J 10s, since than PAF had limited funding, if any, for new allocations

with current resource allocation, i doubt PAF will field more than 150 thunders or get fifth gen any time soon. I even suspect that issue with used f-16 fighters is more financial than USA objections. Looking at recent trend I doubt PAF will get any thing apart from thunders upto 150.

Apparently chief of staff and strategic planners thinks PAF is good with 70-80 f-16s, 150 thunders and 50 PGs till 2025 while nuke role will be handled by 30-40 mirages till 2025.
The other list including improved tanks, new rifles, more SAMS for strike core, more gunships for eastern front takes priority

I doubt india will do preemptive strikes on nuclear facilitates now, in wake of Sub launched cruise missiles, that thought process is no longer valid and thus great outcry on Sub launched cruise missile, with upcoming induction of 8 such systems, it would be impossible to take them out all and too risk to relay purely on SAMs to take the CM out, a single sub can carry dozen of such missiles

 

[The Accountant]

everything PAF got was in brief period when Mushi was in power, his thinking let PAF get the funding it deserves for AWECS, Air tankers, Thunders, F-16s, SPADAs and J 10s, since than PAF had limited funding, if any, for new allocations

with current resource allocation, i doubt PAF will field more than 150 thunders or get fifth gen any time soon. I even suspect that issue with used f-16 fighters is more financial than USA objections. Looking at recent trend I doubt PAF will get any thing apart from thunders upto 150.

Apparently chief of staff and strategic planners thinks PAF is good with 70-80 f-16s, 150 thunders and 50 PGs till 2025 while nuke role will be handled by 30-40 mirages till 2025.
The other list including improved tanks, new rifles, more SAMS for strike core, more gunships for eastern front takes priority

I doubt india will do preemptive strikes on nuclear facilitates now, in wake of Sub launched cruise missiles, that thought process is no longer valid and thus great outcry on Sub launched cruise missile, with upcoming induction of 8 such systems, it would be impossible to take them out all and too risk to relay purely on SAMs to take the CM out, a single sub can carry dozen of such missiles

If PAF strategy is this then its equivalent to suicide ... We are relying too much on nukes ... Minimum credible conventional deterrence is our dire need ... With arrival of Rafael and f16 with no AIM 9X it will be shooting practice for IAF given they are not only technologically advance but double in numbers too ...

We need to understand a capable 5th generation of 4.5++ generation is need of the day ... otherwise PAF will not survive and with insane people like modi Indian attitude is going to be even worst ... BJP will remain in power for next terms as well and they will be getting more agressive .. You can expect any madness from them ...

 

[ziaulislam]

If PAF strategy is this then its equivalent to suicide ... We are relying too much on nukes ... Minimum credible conventional deterrence is our dire need ... With arrival of Rafael and f16 with no AIM 9X it will be shooting practice for IAF given they are not only technologically advance but double in numbers too ...

We need to understand a capable 5th generation of 4.5++ generation is need of the day ... otherwise PAF will not survive and with insane people like modi Indian attitude is going to be even worst ... BJP will remain in power for next terms as well and they will be getting more agressive .. You can expect any madness from them ...

PAF has to make it strategy with available funds, if you are not giving them anything than its not their fault.

Funds are scare, arm services with greater lobbying will get the funds, this is true everywhere from USA to poorest country

 

[The Accountant]

PAF has to make it strategy with available funds, if you are not giving them anything than its not their fault.

Funds are scare, arm services with greater lobbying will get the funds, this is true everywhere from USA to poorest country

Sir i cant agree more but what i am highlighting that it is our primary and as of now most important need aand if we need to delay some other programs then we should ... secure air space by potent sam and high end fighter is a do or die situation ...

If we loose air superiority than our army and navy will be at mercy of IAF which do not only have numeric superiority but have heavy fighter bombers with percision strike capability ...

 

[ziaulislam]

let see what does block 3 brings to table along with known Pod and Aesa update
will we see an IRST or HMD and fifth gen AAM?

 

[Arsalan]

let see what does block 3 brings to table along with known Pod and Aesa update
will we see an IRST or HMD and fifth gen AAM?

It appears that Blk-III might not have an AESA from the beginning. Much like the IFR probe on Blk-II that was first installed somewhere around the 26 aircraft and all the previous planes are to be fitted with the same later on. Same may be the case with AESA. IRST is also unlikely (though i am quite mad about this but frankly, this do not matters to them). Weapons integration is a step by step process and eventually we will get next generation weapons for JF17

 

[Army research]

It appears that Blk-III might not have an AESA from the beginning. Much like the IFR probe on Blk-II that was first installed somewhere around the 26 aircraft and all the previous planes are to be fitted with the same later on. Same may be the case with AESA. IRST is also unlikely (though i am quite mad about this but frankly, this do not matters to them). Weapons integration is a step by step process and eventually we will get next generation weapons for JF17

Sir what would be the point of a blk III if not any signs major upgrade like an AESA from the onset ?

 

[Arsalan]

Sir what would be the point of a blk III if not any signs major upgrade like an AESA from the onset ?

The point is the aircraft is going to get all this stuff. It is being worked upon. However i do not think we will delay the production just to get all systems in place. This is one of the advantages of having your OWN aircraft. You can fit it with anything you deem suitable whenever you want.

 

[CriticalThought]

There is a lot to be proven in Block 3 other than AESA and IRST. If there is a new FADEC based engine, and the aerodynamics have change, it is better to get it into the hands of pilots so they can start familiarizing themselves. Likewise with maintenance crews. Work on weapons and electronics can proceed in parallel. A very good move by PAF.

PAF has to make it strategy with available funds, if you are not giving them anything than its not their fault.

Funds are scare, arm services with greater lobbying will get the funds, this is true everywhere from USA to poorest country

Just this year, PAF's budget has been increased by 1.5 billion dollars. That is a lot of money.