JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[araz]

I understand that. It is one of the most agile air-frames of its time. Which is why I am asking, why did PAF not consider putting KLJ radar on it and use SD-10's? That would give it a huge benefit in terms of force multiplication. With PL=5's, you are still limited to 20-22 KM's I think. While with SD-10's, you can increase the coverage distance by 4 times.



I understand that. But I am talking about now, like 2010 and beyond with the JFT in the picture with the KLJ-7 radar, which is supposedly much better than the Grifo's. So why not upgrade these jets with KLJ-7 radar, to intercept at 60-80 KM's through SD-10's, vs. keeping the Grifo on?

By staying with Grifo, F-7PG's will always be a PD interceptor with like 20 km range, while the IAF jet's can fire onto it from like 50-80 KM's away. If there were KLJ-7 radars on the PG, you could do the same and increase your real BVR force by 100 or more F-7 PG's...

The time for doing so was the 90s.The effort was called the Super 7. It did not materialize due to Northop Grumen pulling outof the deal after embargo was imposed on the Paks by US.PAF did not have much of an option as there was no suitable engine to support all the remedial work which would be required . As the JFT came on line PAF thought it better to invest more of its money into JFT rather than dividing attention over a fighter which was very little gain with a lot of effort .
There were other factors like air frame life, and overall cost benefit. The Chinese also advertised a similar programme with the J7MF( I think) but shelved it due to lack of interest.
A

 

[DJ_Viper]

The time for doing so was the 90s.The effort was called the Super 7. It did not materialize due to Northop Grumen pulling outof the deal after embargo was imposed on the Paks by US.PAF did not have much of an option as there was no suitable engine to support all the remedial work which would be required . As the JFT came on line PAF thought it better to invest more of its money into JFT rather than dividing attention over a fighter which was very little gain with a lot of effort .
There were other factors like air frame life, and overall cost benefit. The Chinese also advertised a similar programme with the J7MF( I think) but shelved it due to lack of interest.
A

That makes sense. May be I think too much cost effectiveness. I still think that for 100 odd F-7PG's, a million dollar worth of investment per plane makes perfect sense to enable them to become true BVR-able. It would add a huge punch for the PAF and will add 100 jet's to 130 some BVR jets available in the form of F-16's and JF-17's block II's. So you go from 130 to almost 250 true BVR jets in a short span of time. These air-frames will remain in the PAF past 2020 I'd assume. And when all newer platform replace them, they can always work as a reserve force. That is a huge force-multiplier through KLJ-7 and SD-10 integration. In fact. the same should happen to K-8's also, IMO. Make every platform strong enough to pose a long distance threat to your enemy. I believe in that.

 

[salman-1]

Firstly KLG-7 type radars were not built in 90's, we replaced the British version sky bolt in few years of its use because sky bolt was the only option available in that size that could fit into F-7 aircraft, it also had clutter problem but range was the main problem, grifo according to PAF offered "miniaturisation at its best". F-7pg had 57km max range in clear weather and F-7p is reported max 50-52 as far as I remember. It was mated with a western May by also Italian fire control system to use Aim-9 series missiles and PAC made HUD. At that time chinese version were not even a simple match for a system termed for fighter aircraft

 

[nomi007]

which aesa radar is install in j-10b any info about that

 

[Rocky rock]

which aesa radar is install in j-10b any info about that

Phazotron RP-35 "Zhemchug," which is an X-band radar with digital fire-control sensors and an electronically scanning phased-array antenna. The radar features a liquid-cooled travelling wave tube transmitter; an exciter; a three channel microwave receiver and programmable signal and data processors. All critical radar controls for "Zemchug" are integrated into the aircraft's throttle grip and stick controller, and radar data is displayed via the head-up and head-down displays allowing for one-man operation.

 

[volatile]

Hi Only BVR can't save or make a aeroplane face 4++ Gen fighters of today ,Advance sensor fusion and jamming also IRST ,HOBS ,RCS and many other factors play an important role ,For many countries even upgradations are considered not viable i do wonder what else we plan to take out from F7 PG`s ,all money has to funnel to JF17 and Im sure JF17 is much more in capability than F7 p/PGS regarding numbers there is always operational cost which are associated with old platforms and risks

 

[Basel]

That makes sense. May be I think too much cost effectiveness. I still think that for 100 odd F-7PG's, a million dollar worth of investment per plane makes perfect sense to enable them to become true BVR-able. It would add a huge punch for the PAF and will add 100 jet's to 130 some BVR jets available in the form of F-16's and JF-17's block II's. So you go from 130 to almost 250 true BVR jets in a short span of time. These air-frames will remain in the PAF past 2020 I'd assume. And when all newer platform replace them, they can always work as a reserve force. That is a huge force-multiplier through KLJ-7 and SD-10 integration. In fact. the same should happen to K-8's also, IMO. Make every platform strong enough to pose a long distance threat to your enemy. I believe in that.

Its not necessary that PGs have Radar upgrade to fire a BVR missile, it can be done by data linking them with other birds like JFT & F-16 in NCW environment.

 

[messiach]

Block-B completed static test & eval. last week.

 

[salman-1]

I don't know why people bring in F-7pg in comparison to 4 or 4.5 gen aircraft. It's not meant to compete such catogory. It's role is to intercept large numbers of Mig-21,23,27 and jaguar type aircraft invading our air space. In war first pawns are sent to spread out and test the battle field, find out their strength and weaknesses , F-7 and F-7pg are our pawns, even Mirage too, then next comes the horses like Jf-17 and F-16s, then later elephants like su-30. But unfortunately we don't have elephants now.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well in term of size and structure the F7PG , is same size as F16 plane

However what gadgets it may carry inside its body is what makes it different or the weapon's load

Size wise the plane pretty decent , however remains to be seen how the internal avionics package or radar or weapon's package hold out

We really did miss out on the J10B induction in 2014 , 36 Brand new Jets would have been fantastic addition. Had we taken that route we would have been now ordering a refill order or extention of agreement

PAF is still searching for their Stealth plane or Fighter Jet it can pair with JF17 Long term goals

 

[ghazi768]

I don't know why people bring in F-7pg in comparison to 4 or 4.5 gen aircraft. It's not meant to compete such catogory. It's role is to intercept large numbers of Mig-21,23,27 and jaguar type aircraft invading our air space. In war first pawns are sent to spread out and test the battle field, find out their strength and weaknesses , F-7 and F-7pg are our pawns, even Mirage too, then next comes the horses like Jf-17 and F-16s, then later elephants like su-30. But unfortunately we don't have elephants now.

well, in actual combat in history where elephants, horses were involved.. elephants and light infantry behind them went first, while cavalry (if available) was used for flanking/mopping up operations. If we can somehow put this analogy on modern air combat, than F-7s, and Mirages are the cavalry doing the flanking, opportunistic manoeuvres.

But looking at history, I never liked elephants excessive use in India although Greeks were mesmerised by them. There food requirements were horrendous resulting in no significant development of cavalry in Indian subcontinent, also use of elephants negated any benefits of developing heavy infantry. This is most probably one of the reasons Indian kingdoms failed when they ended up facing first Turks, than Mongols and Mughals. I wonder if Sus and Rafales have ended up playing the role of 'elephants' for IAF.

 

[salman-1]

Still there is no harm in inducting J-10, if it's really a 4.5 gen aircraft with Aesa, irst and 4.5gen gadgets, then along with India inducting rafael fighter we can add up J-10b/c type with further upgrading. I personally don't trust Chinese stealth technology yet as it's more like a freek or a Frankenstein inChinese aviation. Still need time and real Air in that balloon to be a real stealth. As no special baked paint coating, old tech engine, no real stealth moves on it yet. Seems like a lohar made a ghauri missile dud for its front chowk.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

well, in actual combat in history where elephants, horses were involved.. elephants and light infantry behind them went first, while cavalry (if available) was used for flanking/mopping up operations. If we can somehow put this analogy on modern air combat, than F-7s, and Mirages are the cavalry doing the flanking, opportunistic manoeuvres.

But looking at history, I never liked elephants excessive use in India although Greeks were mesmerised by them. There food requirements were horrendous resulting in no significant development of cavalry in Indian subcontinent, also use of elephants negated any benefits of developing heavy infantry. This is most probably one of the reasons Indian kingdoms failed when they ended up facing first Turks, than Mongols and Mughals. I wonder if Sus and Rafales have ended up playing the role of 'elephants' for IAF.

With advance Generation jets, the Missile silos are all emptied 5 clicks , there is hardly time for lesser capable plane to even know if a missile was even fired till the missiles comes with in range.

The pilots can't do their "Magic" becasue they are up against a missile approaching them rapid pace

It is becoming more and more rare to see Dog fights , most the battles start and end rather quickly with fire and forget auto lock missiles

If the "Cavilary unit" as you stated can't survive the first assault of incoming missiles , it is just metal heap . All planes need some Superior level of protection EW / Missile evade tech


Cavilary units , were used in war to pierce the strong hold of enemy Units in half and spreading confusion and chaos on battle field. Elephants were protected by Armor and generally these creatures were hard to kill they would tremple any other enemy unit and cause panic in positions of enemy troops

Pilot Magic only becomes a factor once the fight becomes Low ammo 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2
or may be both groups have low missiles availability


For Air to Ground Ops: Cavilary Unit would be a good nice Bomber Stealth
For Air to Air : Mobile SAM systems from ground have same effect

 

[DJ_Viper]

Its not necessary that PGs have Radar upgrade to fire a BVR missile, it can be done by data linking them with other birds like JFT & F-16 in NCW environment.

You can't fire SD-10 by current PG's. Wiring and fairings, etc, need to be upgraded and with a heavier rail too. There is more to it than what I am saying. But the ideal situation would be to spend a million or so and do the upgrade. These are very agile fighters and many with PG configuration can remain in service for a while.

The sole purpose for designing the F-16 initially, was to counter the Mig-21 initially. Tells you a lot about the Mig-21.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Technology has evolved 50 times since the Mig was created , and as thus the fighter jet needs necessary upgrades in order to survive a BVR based world and arrival of many fire and forget missile technologies.

Simply having "Agility" is not the only parameter for sucess

Also a short range missile is faster and more agile in adjusting direction which creates a dangerous sitiation for F-7 level fighter.

Obviously the Jets need Radar / Avionics package and some level of Jamming tech in order to do well in today's air security role