JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 6]

[Kompromat]

Like fire, one can only ignite a war, but then war takes its own course. 1965, an operation in MJK led to a war on international border. This is only an assumption that we will have a confined conflict henceforth. When chips are down, people can get really desperate.

Well a clash with Iran is inevitable. Iran is no longer the Iran it used to be in Shah's time. Now Iran has its own regional agenda and if you don't fit in, they wont do you any favors. The only non-hostile border of Pakistan today is China.

Again you're seriously underestimating Afghanis. The way I see it, ISAF will maintain some air assets in Afghanistan because the ISIS epidemic is sure to reach Afghanistan sooner or later and ISAF can't risk a Iraq type collapse of Afghan army to ISIS+Talibans. Plus Afghanistan was discussing a purchase of Block 50/52 F-16s a while ago. that factor cant be simply shrugged off because US will adequately (Not to the teeth but still) arm Afghan air force with some good assets and F-16 would be the weapon of choice because of its versatility.

Then you shouldn't have been jumping up and down on Saudis showing interest in JFT (Which was more of another of their favor to Pakistan)


BVR has now become a standard weapon, days of BVR being a tech edge are long gone. Now henceforth every platform flying will be a BVR capable platform.

All of your points are valid and certainly i agree with them. I would just like to mention that the Americans will not be giving any F-16s let alone Block52s to the Afghanis. First reason is that the F-16 production line is about to be shut with no new orders coming in. Secondly operating an advance weapon system like the F-16 takes decades of training. The Iraqis are being trained since 2006-7. It would need a full scale buildup of infrastructure and training for Afghanis to be able to operate such complex machines. Most of their officers corps is illiterate and not acquainted with airpower at all. They would need all levels of trainer aircrafts before they can start training in an F-16 - so, don't think so.

 

[nomi007]

Chief of the Air Staff, Nigerian Air Force, Air Marshal, Adesola Nunayon Amosu visited the JF-17 Thunder factory at PAC, Kamra. !!

 

[LonE_WolF]

This pic shows more than 2 thunders being manufactured.
we knew that only 2 are under construction. @Horus

 

[SBD-3]

All of your points are valid and certainly i agree with them. I would just like to mention that the Americans will not be giving any F-16s let alone Block52s to the Afghanis. First reason is that the F-16 production line is about to be shut with no new orders coming in. Secondly operating an advance weapon system like the F-16 takes decades of training. The Iraqis are being trained since 2006-7. It would need a full scale buildup of infrastructure and training for Afghanis to be able to operate such complex machines. Most of their officers corps is illiterate and not acquainted with airpower at all. They would need all levels of trainer aircrafts before they can start training in an F-16 - so, don't think so.

1-US doesnt need to give them falcons fresh from production lines. They have a lot of stock in EDA they can just take out a dozen or more, refurbish them and sell them to Afghanistan as military assistance.
2- Airbases like Bagram have been opeating ISAF JETs for more than a decade now. So these bases would already have sufficient infrastructure in place.

 

[MastanKhan]

One thing, most of the people on this forum are agreed is that
1-PAF must raise its squarden strength to lower the numerical gap
2-Must work on to procure some heavys J-11s, or J-10Cs

What is the major difference in J-11B & J-16s I have seen most of the recommendations r in favor of J-11s

@Munir sahib i read ur post few weaks back u mentioned some thing about radar signature that radar signature has thousands of lines and americans r not happy, can u plz put some more.light on this sentencs
Thanks

Hi,

J 16 is the newest version of the J11----. Our BLK 52's are superior to the J10C's. We need heavies----.

Afghanistan is not going to get the F16's----and neither is Iraq---.

There is news in yahoo.com today---it is about Russian planning of taking out u s aircraft carriers---the strike would have atleast 100 plus aircraft and some of these aircraft would be expected to comitt kamikaze strikes on the carrier if everything else failed.

Today's strategy for warfare is to annihilate the enemy's main assets between day 1 today 3. The striking aircrafts would be massive in numbers---to overwhelm----.

I made those similar comments on pakdef.org some 11 years ago----that idiot HKHAN was not happy and none of his cronies---.

The basic fundamentals of cold start are a strike on Pakistani assets with a 75 to a 100 aircraft strike force and it may NOT include ground forces at all but may also include naval assets.

That is the reason that paf needs 450 + aircraft in its arsenal----at least 2 sqdrn's of heavies------. It will have to launch a similar number of aircraft to intercept---it would need to force 60--70 % losses to the enemy and while doing that---it also needs to counter strike at the same time---paf will also suffer heavy casualties---but the most important thing for it is to take out the pride of IAF in massive numbers eve at the rate of 1 to 1----. Once that happens---IAF will not be able to operate without a serious concern.

 

[Bratva]

"F-18 early LERX Problems"

During flight testing, the snag on the leading edge of the stabilators was filled in, and the gap between the Leading edge extensions (LEX) and the fuselage mostly filled in. The gaps, called the boundary layer air discharge (BLAD) slots, controlled the vortices generated by the LEX and presented clean air to the vertical stabilizers at high angles of attack, but they also generated a great deal of parasitic drag, worsening the problem of the F/A-18's inadequate range.

McDonnell filled in 80% of the gap, leaving a small slot to bleed air from the engine intake. This may have contributed to early problems with fatigue cracks appearing on the vertical stabilizers due to extreme aerodynamic loads, resulting in a short grounding in 1984 until the stabilizers were strengthened"

. Starting in May 1988, a small vertical fence was added to the top of each LEX to broaden the vortices and direct them away from the vertical stabilizers. This also provided a minor increase in controllability as a side effect.[11] F/A-18s of early versions had a problem with insufficient rate of roll, exacerbated by the insufficient wing stiffness, especially with heavy underwing ordnance loads.

I wonder If JF-17 B-1 faced such problems !

 

[AFlover]

Hi,

J 16 is the newest version of the J11----. Our BLK 52's are superior to the J10C's. We need heavies

The basic fundamentals of cold start are a strike on Pakistani assets with a 75 to a 100 aircraft strike force and it may NOT include ground forces at all but may also include naval assets.

That is the reason that paf needs 450 + aircraft in its arsenal----at least 2 sqdrn's of heavies------. It will have to launch a similar number of aircraft to intercept---it would need to force 60--70 % losses to the enemy and while doing that---it also needs to counter strike at the same time-

Mastan sahib ur analysis is realistic. I also think massive attack with 100s of top line and mix of fighters would be difficult to defend. The concepts is if in such an attack lets suppose both sides suffer 60-70% assets loss, india will still be able to do 2nd strike and thats bcaz of numerical advantage but we might not be able to due to
remaining assests. this situation would escalate a full war. Thats why i m in favor of heavys preferrably J-16s. I know block 52 is better than J-10s but i dont like over dependency on us as it will definately twist our arms as always in such a situation Thats why chinese and local made stuff is better. Increase block-52s to 40s is ok but then 4-5 sqrdns heays r imperative for PAF and PN.

 

[Viper0011.]

The Americans will not be giving any F-16s let alone Block52s to the Afghanis.
It would need a full scale buildup of infrastructure and training for Afghanis to be able to operate such complex machines. They would need all levels of trainer aircrafts before they can start training in an F-16 - so, don't think so.

Again, some seriously dangerous assumptions.......the US will probably not give the Block 52 as there is no need to.....but how about surplus Block 40s we got in tons and many just parked. We know with the JSF increasing, more -16's block 40's (from ANG) will be parking soon. -16' block 52 is a notch below the block 52, but still offers the same agility and BVR options.
For training.....Simulators my man, Simulators!!! These can train anyone on a -16's in a month. The rest, you can learn by actual flying.

Last but not least, your worry shouldn't JUST be the -16's. The real worry is a leased base to India with SU-30's being flown by the Indian and Afghani pilots!!! in addition to whatever the Afghanistan gets like the -16's block 25 or 40 or even SU-27 or used Mirages. Even if they get MALE drones, it would STILL turn the border into an enemy one.

Please do consider Iran hostile for all intensive purposes in the next 5 years. Combine with India, Iran wants to turn into a regional power. Which is why they'll make peace with the US so that they are let to live and be a "big man" in the neighborhood against the Saudi's and anyone supporting the Saudis.

At this time, the Pakistani civilian leadership and the air force need to prepare for 4 hostile borders out of 5. The Indian side, the Iranian, the Afghani side and the Ocean. The 5th one is the most peaceful one (with China of course). So if you think about it.....that's significant force needed right there. About 500-600 all BVR ones 4th gen+. Plus even this is an older solution. Add Stealthy 4 -5 squadrons to the mix as without it, you'll be vulnerable to PakFa.

A LOT to think about for the Pakistani civilian leadership and the military. The days of when the military somehow got these sophisticated weapons on their own are gone. The civilian elected government is the ONLY solution to this issue.....that is, if they are allowed to actually work with rock solid focus on JUST the economy (like how Modi is doing it, just getting business, business and more business from the day he came into power). If you notice, the entire India, whether they hate or like Modi, have cleared the way for him to run his agenda. Not sure why the Pakistanis can't do that and allow elected people to fulfill their 5 years and focus on growth. With so many dangers facing such a small sized country, I'd expect the political leadership to be singing the same song. Turns out, they are singing songs for violence and to hamper the economy, which is against the poor people and the country's national security.

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastan sahib ur analysis is realistic. I also think massive attack with 100s of top line and mix of fighters would be difficult to defend. The concepts is if in such an attack lets suppose both sides suffer 60-70% assets loss, india will still be able to do 2nd strike and thats bcaz of numerical advantage but we might not be able to due to
remaining assests. this situation would escalate a full war. Thats why i m in favor of heavys preferrably J-16s. I know block 52 is better than J-10s but i dont like over dependency on us as it will definately twist our arms as always in such a situation Thats why chinese and local made stuff is better. Increase block-52s to 40s is ok but then 4-5 sqrdns heays r imperative for PAF and PN.

Hi,

60-70% losses were meant to be from the major strike and not the whole of the air force----. With an air force of 500---paf can sustain even if losing 50 + aircraft---. OTOH iaf will not be able to continue----it cannot put up all its fighters on one front----at least 50% will stay on the Chinese border---.

For J 10--it is going backwards-----. You need aesa better electronics and more potent BVR

 

[AFlover]

Again, some seriously dangerous assumptions.......the US will probably not give the Block 52 as there is no need to.....but how about surplus Block 40s we got in tons and many just parked. We know with the JSF increasing, more -16's block 40's (from ANG) will be parking soon. -16' block 52 is a notch below the block 52, but still offers the same agility and BVR options.
For training.....Simulators my man, Simulators!!! These can train anyone on a -16's in a month. The rest, you can learn by actual flying.

Last but not least, your worry shouldn't JUST be the -16's. The real worry is a leased base to India with SU-30's being flown by the Indian and Afghani pilots!!! in addition to whatever the Afghanistan gets like the -16's block 25 or 40 or even SU-27 or used Mirages. Even if they get MALE drones, it would STILL turn the border into an enemy one.

Please do consider Iran hostile for all intensive purposes in the next 5 years. Combine with India, Iran wants to turn into a regional power. Which is why they'll make peace with the US so that they are let to live and be a "big man" in the neighborhood against the Saudi's and anyone supporting the Saudis.

At this time, the Pakistani civilian leadership and the air force need to prepare for 4 hostile borders out of 5. The Indian side, the Iranian, the Afghani side and the Ocean. The 5th one is the most peaceful one (with China of course). So if you think about it.....that's significant force needed right there. About 500-600 all BVR ones 4th gen+. Plus even this is an older solution. Add Stealthy 4 -5 squadrons to the mix as without it, you'll be vulnerable to PakFa.

A LOT to think about for the Pakistani civilian leadership and the military. The days of when the military somehow got these sophisticated weapons on their own are gone. The civilian elected government is the ONLY solution to this issue.....that is, if they are allowed to actually work with rock solid focus on JUST the economy (like how Modi is doing it, just getting business, business and more business from the day he came into power). If you notice, the entire India, whether they hate or like Modi, have cleared the way for him to run his agenda. Not sure why the Pakistanis can't do that and allow elected people to fulfill their 5 years and focus on growth. With so many dangers facing such a small sized country, I'd expect the political leadership to be singing the same song. Turns out, they are singing songs for violence and to hamper the economy, which is against the poor people and the country's national security.

A very sensible post
A true threat perception analysis. We should not look wat others will not get but make our home correct within the political paramete,r infact army should drag govt to seriously think on these fronts and force them to deliver

 

[Donatello]

Again, some seriously dangerous assumptions.......the US will probably not give the Block 52 as there is no need to.....but how about surplus Block 40s we got in tons and many just parked. We know with the JSF increasing, more -16's block 40's (from ANG) will be parking soon. -16' block 52 is a notch below the block 52, but still offers the same agility and BVR options.
For training.....Simulators my man, Simulators!!! These can train anyone on a -16's in a month. The rest, you can learn by actual flying.

Last but not least, your worry shouldn't JUST be the -16's. The real worry is a leased base to India with SU-30's being flown by the Indian and Afghani pilots!!! in addition to whatever the Afghanistan gets like the -16's block 25 or 40 or even SU-27 or used Mirages. Even if they get MALE drones, it would STILL turn the border into an enemy one.

Please do consider Iran hostile for all intensive purposes in the next 5 years. Combine with India, Iran wants to turn into a regional power. Which is why they'll make peace with the US so that they are let to live and be a "big man" in the neighborhood against the Saudi's and anyone supporting the Saudis.

At this time, the Pakistani civilian leadership and the air force need to prepare for 4 hostile borders out of 5. The Indian side, the Iranian, the Afghani side and the Ocean. The 5th one is the most peaceful one (with China of course). So if you think about it.....that's significant force needed right there. About 500-600 all BVR ones 4th gen+. Plus even this is an older solution. Add Stealthy 4 -5 squadrons to the mix as without it, you'll be vulnerable to PakFa.

A LOT to think about for the Pakistani civilian leadership and the military. The days of when the military somehow got these sophisticated weapons on their own are gone. The civilian elected government is the ONLY solution to this issue.....that is, if they are allowed to actually work with rock solid focus on JUST the economy (like how Modi is doing it, just getting business, business and more business from the day he came into power). If you notice, the entire India, whether they hate or like Modi, have cleared the way for him to run his agenda. Not sure why the Pakistanis can't do that and allow elected people to fulfill their 5 years and focus on growth. With so many dangers facing such a small sized country, I'd expect the political leadership to be singing the same song. Turns out, they are singing songs for violence and to hamper the economy, which is against the poor people and the country's national security.

Sir, while the Afghans may be able to get F-16s, what is their Air force background? When was the last time they operated such a sophisticated machine? (Never) two squadrons would be a threat, but not something we can't deal with. PAF can destory them on the ground if required. Look at their overall picture. No SAMs, no AD network. Plus, Americans are desperate to get out of Afghanistan, why would they want their equipment falling in un-reliable hands? What's the guarantee that Chinese won't be able to look inside. So there are multitode of reasons. For the foreseeable future it is the IAF that is the threat. PAF placed JF-17s at Peshawar for a reason.

 

[HRK]

Sir, while the Afghans may be able to get F-16s, what is their Air force background? When was the last time they operated such a sophisticated machine? (Never) two squadrons would be a threat, but not something we can't deal with. PAF can destory them on the ground if required. Look at their overall picture. No SAMs, no AD network. Plus, Americans are desperate to get out of Afghanistan, why would they want their equipment falling in un-reliable hands? What's the guarantee that Chinese won't be able to look inside. So there are multitode of reasons. For the foreseeable future it is the IAF that is the threat. PAF placed JF-17s at Peshawar for a reason.

There is a famous saying "Hope for the best and prepare for the worst"

@orangzaib is just pointing the worst case scenario in this case, which in my opinion hold its ground in the context of the regional strategic situation, specially becauase of the alingment of Afghan government and its security apparatus with regional players other then Pakistan.

Just imagine 2 squadrons of SU-30 stationed at Camp Marmal threatening whole of the region all the way from Peshwar to Gilgit Baltistan, or imagine Shindand Air Base threatening Samungli Air Base Quetta, and Shahbaz Air Base Jacobabad.

So in this 'worst case scenario' plan force structure of just '350' BVR capable jets for PAF is not enough.

 

[rockstar08]

@MastanKhan @orangzaib both guys put some serious issues here ... but i think you both are escalating things a bit more than it really are ..... why on the first hand you guys believe that PAF dont want to equip themselves with some high class heavy fighters ?? the problem is that where is the funds ?
when PAF gets 13 f-16 from Jordan i support that decision and said that we should ask Americans to give us remaining blk 52 F-16s , 18 more blk52 will be a huge boost to our defense capabiities in both air superiority and BVR ... now we can not just fully relay on Fighters or are we ?? what about a proper 3 layer Air defense system ?? do we even have a proper defense system ?? the only potent SAMS we have are Spada 2000 ... but what about med and long range ?
Mastan you are keep talking about releasing of Shakil afridi and get whatever you want from US . man its not that simple .. you know that US give goodies with many string attached to it .... heavy fighter are need of the time but how and from where ?? Chinese are the emerging Weapon industry .. and what make you even think that they will give you j-11 or 16's on lease or loans ..
arnt we getting a lot from them already ??? look at the navy getting subs , who is going to pay for the 6 subs of undisclosed type ?!

if you see that even today we are not allowed to use the f-16's as we want or to hanger them in the base of our likes ...why ??
US is leaving the region and for now they dont really give a Damn about Pakistan, India on the other side is emerging economy and a possible market for thousands of american products .. they are simply stand with them in case of any future conflict .. US today sell anything lethal to Pak , tomorrow you will see a possible reaction from India in USA ...

back on topic the best bet for pak is to gather used F-16 and mled them ... another option can be UAE ex mirage 2ks , but again will it be possible ?? and what about the funds ?? if we ask for our favors to our arab brother they will want something in return ... and for Orangzaib , as you mentioned that PAF should try to get aging f-15s ...man common seriously ... dont you even know your own GOVT ??? and how you even think that USA will allow such fighter to sell in PAF .

Jf is a project which may seems a bit weak for now but it has potential to absorb certain tech from world .. and eventually by time it will get better ... the only thing we require is to make them in numbers as fast as we can ...PAF has today very limited options to buy ....for example have a look at our navy ... in any possible full scale war, our navy cant stand 24 hours in front of IN ... and not to mentioned the Air wing of IN based on Mig29k's and mirage ..

wish list for PAf is long , they might even understand the danger emerges from out eastern border but the problem is that their hands are empty ... they dont have much resources.. even if they have ..i would prefer to go for some SAMS from China ..they re much more needed for the time .. and also get some F-16s upgrade them to MLU , if uncle sam is ready to give ...or else we have no option but to use words to scare the Indians off

 

[Kompromat]

@orangzaib

* Dear Sir, Afghanis can't operate sixteens, plain and simple fact being that they don't even fly a jet trainer as of now. Simulators are highly overrated and cannot replace the tri layered flight training programs. You can't just put a guy who was riding a donkey until now through simulators to pop inside an F-16 cockpit at the other end...its an oxymoron.

* India will not be leasing their widow making Mig-21s to Afghanis let alone Sukhois, Mirages and so on...that too with Afghani Pilots.. IAF is grossly outnumbered and outgunned as per its own two front war doctrine against China and Pakistan.

They need their widow makers and every other asset for homeland defense.

* When Tajikistan had leased a base to Indian Air Force in 2002, Musharraf had made it clear to Tajiks that if it posed a threat to us, we will strike!

Same analogy applies to Afghanistan too. We can wipe out their bases if and when we feel like it.

* Iran is not stupid. The GCC put together has the 2nd most advanced air fleet in the world. Iran was, is and will remain nothing but target practice for the GCC air forces unless rhe sanctuons are lifted and they buy a whole new air force. Last thing they want un this situation is to piss off PAF.

* I agree again that almost 400 or so 4th Gen fightes will cut it for Pakistan.

 

[Dazzler]

ROSE upgraded mirages should be included into bvr launching platforms.