JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 6]

[LonE_WolF]

View attachment 143582
now with triple racket

Is this real or PS??

 

[Donatello]

You started out making excellent points but then the above sort of changed that strategic impression IMO. 18 or 45 or 70 -16's is a good force. But you need to start looking around, you are going to be facing 150-200 MKI's, about 40 Mirage 2000's, Mig 21's and then strike platforms like Jags, Mig 27's, etc. ALL BVR ready (add LCA and Rafale later with PakFa).

Do you think 70 -16's are a good cut to defend an entire country? If the JFT B-II were operational, I could see some change, 70 -16's with 100 JFT's Block II so really a defending force of 170 BVR ready jets backed up by F-7's and older Mirages, etc for point defense role.
The PAF needs to double up the number of its -16's sort of immediately and those have to be ready for BVR. Many options exist. Or get a few squadrons from the Chinese (J-11) or even J-10B (BVR ready). What you are missing is the numbers of 4th gen platforms. The 4th gen platform need to really be around 400 jets within the PAF, no matter how you look at it, if you want a decent air force able to deter and counter the above scenario. Plus, add 3-4 squadrons of Stealth jets. So really around 400 4th+ Gen and 60-100 5th Gen. The PAF needs to invest into SAM's, sort of last year and its late. SAM systems (credible ones) in numbers and defense tiers throughout the country is another major need. In the future, you could have a hostile Iran and Afghanistan to watch out for as well.
I know you are financially unstable but the country need to unite and run after whoever is selected to run the country and let them bring about economic changes, many large projects are pending. That could if completed, give you a few billions to go buy these necessities. But your political system (specially oppositions) have no care or respect for the national security of the country. Seems like everyone just wants to kick out whoever is in the seat without giving them the change to fulfill their agenda and let the system cleanup for you.
Btw, Saudi's are forming good economic ties with India. They won't give you -15's. At the max, may be some UAV's, munitions, AWACS / Recon support but that's it.

1-China doesn't have any J-11s or any Flankers in spare. They need each one of them, and their own production is awfully slowed
2-We can make all the lists we want, but hey, it's the PAF AHQ that comes up with decisions.

 

[Kompromat]

You started out making excellent points but then the above sort of changed that strategic impression IMO. 18 or 45 or 70 -16's is a good force. But you need to start looking around, you are going to be facing 150-200 MKI's, about 40 Mirage 2000's, Mig 21's and then strike platforms like Jags, Mig 27's, etc. ALL BVR ready (add LCA and Rafale later with PakFa).

Do you think 70 -16's are a good cut to defend an entire country? If the JFT B-II were operational, I could see some change, 70 -16's with 100 JFT's Block II so really a defending force of 170 BVR ready jets backed up by F-7's and older Mirages, etc for point defense role.
The PAF needs to double up the number of its -16's sort of immediately and those have to be ready for BVR. Many options exist. Or get a few squadrons from the Chinese (J-11) or even J-10B (BVR ready). What you are missing is the numbers of 4th gen platforms. The 4th gen platform need to really be around 400 jets within the PAF, no matter how you look at it, if you want a decent air force able to deter and counter the above scenario. Plus, add 3-4 squadrons of Stealth jets. So really around 400 4th+ Gen and 60-100 5th Gen. The PAF needs to invest into SAM's, sort of last year and its late. SAM systems (credible ones) in numbers and defense tiers throughout the country is another major need. In the future, you could have a hostile Iran and Afghanistan to watch out for as well.
I know you are financially unstable but the country need to unite and run after whoever is selected to run the country and let them bring about economic changes, many large projects are pending. That could if completed, give you a few billions to go buy these necessities. But your political system (specially oppositions) have no care or respect for the national security of the country. Seems like everyone just wants to kick out whoever is in the seat without giving them the change to fulfill their agenda and let the system cleanup for you.
Btw, Saudi's are forming good economic ties with India. They won't give you -15's. At the max, may be some UAV's, munitions, AWACS / Recon support but that's it.

* We won't be having a full scale war with India. It will escelate beyond control.

* Iran will not become an enemy.

* We can take care of Afghanistan with a squadron of F-7PGs alone.

* We need no help from the Saudis. Its actually good. If they don't fight for us, we wont fight for them.

* I agree that PAF needs a healthy fleet for 400 BVR fighters.

 

[AFlover]

I think the PAF needs to lease or purchase either J-11's or -15's, I think they can obtain either. Both China and the KSA influence can help if financial backing can exist, armed by AMRAAMS or in J-11s case, SD-10 (or black market Archer?), these can serve as a good option for now.

JFT needs to come up to speed rather quickly with IFR probe, better avionics and multi-hard point racks for SD-10's. That's very critical. Also, its sad to see that Pakistan doesn't have indigenous built SAM system yet? A medium to long range SAM system proliferated in layers across the border would definitely help.

The PN is a different story all together. I think they need a total of 3-4 squadrons but due to money issues, they are asking for 30 jets. A better situation would be 4 squadrons. 2 can be JFT's and the other 2 can be either used Mirage 2000's or J-10's or J-15's if the PN can get them. Even in PN's case, you still need a hi-lo as you'll be facing Mig-29 MK's with Harriers, Jags supported by Mirages from the land based IN stations.
I think the least the PAF can do, is to go shopping for used -15's or J-11/15's. If these don't become a reality than sizable number of -16's ADF or used Block 40 or more for immediate BVR engagement capability. With the -16's. you'll need 200 of these, supported by 250 advance JFT could do the trick but still single engine platform without the ability to be a missile truck.

One thing, most of the people on this forum are agreed is that
1-PAF must raise its squarden strength to lower the numerical gap
2-Must work on to procure some heavys J-11s, or J-10Cs

What is the major difference in J-11B & J-16s I have seen most of the recommendations r in favor of J-11s

@Munir sahib i read ur post few weaks back u mentioned some thing about radar signature that radar signature has thousands of lines and americans r not happy, can u plz put some more.light on this sentencs
Thanks

 

[Reichmarshal]

India
For the last 3 weeks PAF is on high alert. Just yesterday it did three hot scrambles as iaf ac violated the 30 km no fly zone ( jointly agreed by both nations).
Iaf ac have been carrying out recon on our positions.

We need to understand modi is in trouble in India, as the Eco agenda that he was elected is not in sight. Cooperate India is distancing it self from him n he had calculated on all out support of u.s has not be forthcoming to the extent that he was banking upon as the U.s is not in a position economicly to support it.
India Eco is going down at a fast pace, with its current gdp of 4 some percent is simply not good enough to sustain it.
So to hide it all as a fail safe he is stirring trouble with Pakistan n the Indian govt along with a media is adapting a gingoistic attitude towards Pakistan. Plus it's preparing its population mentally for war with Pakistan. Just read n watch their media n u will know wt I am talking about.
As a last resort when all else is lost, I think India will stage A false flag opp in India n will blame it on Pak, n will launch limited opp/air strikes in Pakistan. This will go too far n will result in a response from Pakistan n will lead to a full scale war.

It is weakness n non existence response from both a military n diplomatic stand point that is making India bolder by the day n weak in their n their allies eyes.

 

[BMKhan]

Well I am new on this forum.
Can anyone tell me the real comparison of jf 17 blk 2.

 

[Basel]

Pianrha B chances are more then A darter
however Prianha B is also developed from A darter

Which one is better?

 

[SBD-3]

You have conveniently ignored the fact that JF-17 is not being inducted as a supplement but rather as replacement for the likes of F-7 and Mirages...... it's naive to assume that all of India's missions will be carried out by MKI.....since that's allegedly your best platform.

Around a year or two ago, I happened to stumble upon an article on IAF. The article mentioned that Indian Pilots had more positive view on Mirages than MKI. I didn't believe it at first hand but when I listened to the views of IdAF pilots about their Mirage IIIs and Vs, I was fairly convinced that how great a platform mirage really is. If IAF is to conduct a strike, Mirage will be the weapon of choice IMHO, because the way Mirage plays into the hand of a pilot, no other aircraft really comes close. MKI, well I think they will more be used as escorts and interceptors. But the most capable strike platform in IAF's arsenal is Mirage (IMHO).

 

[Sulman Badshah]

Which one is better?

Both are almost same A darter have better range ... So Better to go of with the one which bring TOT

 

[Basel]

@The SC I also believe that JF-17 should be evolved as F-16 and now F-18 has evolved, A JF-17 version similar to Advance Super Hornet will be very effective even if 5th gen is introduced in sub continent by IAF.

 

[MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n]

Not really. During the sanctions saga of 1990s, they were more than happy to supply Agostas, refit/support for older Agostas/Daphne, and take on the ROSE project. So much so, that after their 11 men were killed in that brutal bus bombing, they did not leave, but rather continued to work. Even if today, Pakistan grabbed those Mirages, French would still supply. Hey, India has not even signed the Rafale deal yet. If they had sold the avionics, they would have made 1.5 billion USD already......I am sure they are having second thoughts about the decision.



Agreed, but Mirage2000-9 still cuts it very close, not to mention in the ground attack/anti ship role.



Unless the Government releases 4-5 billion USD today, that is not going to happen. There are some privatizations coming up to beef up government coffers, you may never know though. My bet is, keep the F-16s as it is, go after the UAE Mirages as they become available, and get J-11 for Maritime role, based in Karachi/Gwader. JF-17 can continue to evolve. But it is much easier said than done.

best roadmap for future bro. ... i just wish somebody in P.a.f. just read that somehow ...

 

[Viper0011.]

* We won't be having a full scale war with India. It will escelate beyond control.
* Iran will not become an enemy.
* We can take care of Afghanistan with a squadron of F-7PGs alone.
* We need no help from the Saudis. Its actually good. If they don't fight for us, we wont fight for them..

Do you think Pakistan will press the nuclear button that easily, in case of a large air strike by over a 100 SU-30's on targeted areas? The risks are high, but trust me, survival doesn't only exist on India's part. Pakistan wants to survive too. So you can't let the conventional gap grow so big that even one large scale offense (still MUCH shorter of a full scale war), can inflict serious damages to Pakistan's strategic points. I believe that's where Modi is headed with this. And the PAF needs to take that into account more than anything. Can't be hoping for the so called peace and doing limited stuff.

If you asked Talibans or the Pak Army or the Afghan leadership just 16 years ago that could they ever be enemies.......they'd all have said "Hell No". The reality is that today, the Pak Army is not only fighting the Talibans.....its fighting its own citizens inside its borders with one of the largest civilian population based military operations in the history of Pakistan. Iran just killed a few Pakistani soldiers.....and Afghanistan sends Talibans all day long to attack the PA.....you still want to live in the dream world Aero? Threat perception should be taken very seriously. India's influence on Iran will ONLY grow once the US will make peace with Iran and that's probably coming as both hate ISIS so they'll become partners against the ISIS terrorists. Think about it again.

Today's Afghanistan isn't tomorrow's. They are working on selling their minerals and all.....affording a couple of squadrons of SU-30's (specially if India supports them) or even F-16's, won't be that big of a deal. Today you can tell me "one squadron of F-7's can take care of them", tomorrow when they'll field 4 squadrons of SU's or the -16's.....then what would the answer be?? Again, negative threat perception doesn't change the reality. It's just delusion IMO.

Saudis will do the same that others are doing, getting into business with India. The oil will only last so long and the US (the biggest customer of Saudi oil) has now become the biggest competitor in many respects. So Saudi's will have Indian influence too, to a degree where they won't militarily support Pakistan. Time for Pakistan to stand up independently and decide how it wants to go forward for itself and its people. For a baseline air force and other technology and weapons level to be maintained against India.......the political drama has to end and the rulers have to be given a free chance to grow the economy. If they don't, people should never vote for them. Violent protesting, political instability in a country that's dealing with so many high risk situations like I mentioned above....is very dangerous and against its national security. Your politicians need to work together to let your military parity come true through supporting each other and growing the economy with a stable political system. Otherwise, money doesn't grow on trees if you keep stabbing your economy and the international commitments!

 

[sathya]

We need to understand modi is in trouble in India, as the Eco agenda that he was elected is not in sight. Cooperate India is distancing it self from him n he had calculated on all out support of u.s has not be forthcoming to the extent that he was banking upon as the U.s is not in a position economicly to support it.
India Eco is going down at a fast pace, with its current gdp of 4 some percent is simply not good enough to sustain it.
So to hide it all as a fail safe he is stirring trouble with Pakistan n the Indian govt along with a media is adapting a gingoistic attitude towards Pakistan. Plus it's preparing its population mentally for war with Pakistan. Just read n watch their media n u will know wt I am talking about.
As a last resort when all else is lost, I think India will stage A false flag opp in India n will blame it on Pak, n will launch limited opp/air strikes in Pakistan. This will go too far n will result in a response from Pakistan n will lead to a full scale war.

It is weakness n non existence response from both a military n diplomatic stand point that is making India bolder by the day n weak in their n their allies eyes.

Essentially we were feeling the same about Pakistan all along..
Why would Musharraf talk about India now ?

 

[SBD-3]

* We won't be having a full scale war with India. It will escelate beyond control.

Like fire, one can only ignite a war, but then war takes its own course. 1965, an operation in MJK led to a war on international border. This is only an assumption that we will have a confined conflict henceforth. When chips are down, people can get really desperate.

* Iran will not become an enemy.

Well a clash with Iran is inevitable. Iran is no longer the Iran it used to be in Shah's time. Now Iran has its own regional agenda and if you don't fit in, they wont do you any favors. The only non-hostile border of Pakistan today is China.

* We can take care of Afghanistan with a squadron of F-7PGs alone.

Again you're seriously underestimating Afghanis. The way I see it, ISAF will maintain some air assets in Afghanistan because the ISIS epidemic is sure to reach Afghanistan sooner or later and ISAF can't risk a Iraq type collapse of Afghan army to ISIS+Talibans. Plus Afghanistan was discussing a purchase of Block 50/52 F-16s a while ago. that factor cant be simply shrugged off because US will adequately (Not to the teeth but still) arm Afghan air force with some good assets and F-16 would be the weapon of choice because of its versatility.

* We need no help from the Saudis. Its actually good. If they don't fight for us, we wont fight for them.

Then you shouldn't have been jumping up and down on Saudis showing interest in JFT (Which was more of another of their favor to Pakistan)

* I agree that PAF needs a healthy fleet for 400 BVR fighters.

BVR has now become a standard weapon, days of BVR being a tech edge are long gone. Now henceforth every platform flying will be a BVR capable platform.

 

[fatman17]

Zhuhai Airshow - 2014.

"There is also no listing for the Pakistan-built JF-17 fighter, which was at the 2012 airshow. However, Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) will exhibit the FC-1 fighter, which is a Chinese variant of the JF-17. The fighter is a joint program by Chengdu Aircraft and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex."