JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

[alimobin memon]

kia baat hai ap ki aqal e saleem ki
when did usa give LGUs / LGBs to pakistan

Yaar yea GBU series laser guided hai na ?

 

[nomi007]

I believe the Mirage/F-7 used Aim-9 Sidewinders on them.

But yes, you are right. For that reason, Pakistan is moving away from USA towards China.

The only option left in the west is Europe. But they have limited offering and at times, expensive.

before 1989 chines start joint ventures with usa &west to manufacture different variants of j-21b Q-5 and lot more i will share detail soon with detail
aim-9 integration was started at that time

 

[Bilal.]

Yaar yea GBU series laser guided hai na ?

GBU = guided bomb unit

It can be laser or some other guidance.

 

[TaimiKhan]

kia baat hai ap ki aqal e saleem ki
when did usa give LGUs / LGBs to pakistan

@nomi007

If you don't know about something or about history then atleast ask respecfully or before telling me about my aqal, get yours checked up by googling up. We got the Laser Guided Bombs / Kits way back in eighties. Some even say we got them soon after we inducted the first batch of F-16s. Do remember we integrated the Thomson ALTIS pod for nothing way back in 1986. Its integration meant we had laser guided weaponry in 1986 or even before that.

Below are two very old pictures of PAF F-16s with LGBs being loaded up and one which is fully loaded up with LGBs & ALTIS targeting pod. Do see the uniforms being wore by the PAF personnel, this is something which they wore decades back. And both these pictures are very very old. I remember very clearly of having gone to PAF Lahore base in late eighties on the Defence Day and seeing these bombs beside the F-16s.

So enjoy and next time do some research work before you tell someone about their aqals.

And yeah, we use these American LGBs on Chinese F-7P / PGs. No big science is required. Its the laser designation part which is done by the F-16s or other platform which has such system. It was done inhouse.

And as for integration of AIM-9s on F-7s, F-6s, A-5s & Mirages, we did not take anyone's permission nor we asked the Americans for help. It was done inhouse and off course Chinese helped where required. But it was PAF initiative, brain child and they did it nearly on their own.

 

[nomi007]

@nomi007

If you don't know about something or about history then atleast ask respecfully or before telling me about my aqal, get yours checked up by googling up. We got the Laser Guided Bombs / Kits way back in eighties. Some even say we got them soon after we inducted the first batch of F-16s. Do remember we integrated the Thomson ALTIS pod for nothing way back in 1986. Its integration meant we had laser guided weaponry in 1986 or even before that.

Below are two very old pictures of PAF F-16s with LGBs being loaded up and one which is fully loaded up with LGBs & ALTIS targeting pod. Do see the uniforms being wore by the PAF personnel, this is something which they wore decades back. And both these pictures are very very old. I remember very clearly of having gone to PAF Lahore base in late eighties on the Defence Day and seeing these bombs beside the F-16s.

So enjoy and next time do some research work before you tell someone about their aqals.

And yeah, we use these American LGBs on Chinese F-7P / PGs. No big science is required. Its the laser designation part which is done by the F-16s or other platform which has such system. It was done inhouse.

And as for integration of AIM-9s on F-7s, F-6s, A-5s & Mirages, we did not take anyone's permission nor we asked the Americans for help. It was done inhouse and off course Chinese helped where required. But it was PAF initiative, brain child and they did it nearly on their own.

bhai jan Thomson ALTIS pod pakistan ne jis waqt yeh jets lehe the us waqt select ki thi

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Must have something to do with technical aspects. As chinese are using laser proximity fuze in their PL-9 missiles as well as in the latest Pl-5E series missiles which is already in service with PAF and used on JF-17s. A very technical guy may answer that why is one system used on one missile and another system on others.

@gambit

Little help Sir.

Tech bottle neck? cost? complexity?

on positive side
maybe not needed

 

[SQ8]

Must have something to do with technical aspects. As chinese are using laser proximity fuze in their PL-9 missiles as well as in the latest Pl-5E series missiles which is already in service with PAF and used on JF-17s. A very technical guy may answer that why is one system used on one missile and another system on others.

@gambit

Little help Sir.

Why SD-10 uses RF proximity fuze instead of modern laser prox fuze ????

The R-77 Radar seeker variant and the AIM-120 both use RF proximity fuses. The PAC-3 missile and the S-400 SAM also use RF proximity fuzing.The HAL Astra will use RF fusing as well..is it outdated?.

There is no modern or outdated about it. Laser fuzes are possible on Radar missiles as well but it depends on the costs tradeoff vs accuracy.
This little link shows how fuzing works and what accuracy is enough. If a RF fuze provides amble accuracy for the needs...why would you add a Laser fuze for the heck of it?
Chapter 14 Fuzing

Early IR missiles used IR proximity fusing and switched to laser for increased accuracy.

 

[Donatello]

@nomi007

If you don't know about something or about history then atleast ask respecfully or before telling me about my aqal, get yours checked up by googling up. We got the Laser Guided Bombs / Kits way back in eighties. Some even say we got them soon after we inducted the first batch of F-16s. Do remember we integrated the Thomson ALTIS pod for nothing way back in 1986. Its integration meant we had laser guided weaponry in 1986 or even before that.

Below are two very old pictures of PAF F-16s with LGBs being loaded up and one which is fully loaded up with LGBs & ALTIS targeting pod. Do see the uniforms being wore by the PAF personnel, this is something which they wore decades back. And both these pictures are very very old. I remember very clearly of having gone to PAF Lahore base in late eighties on the Defence Day and seeing these bombs beside the F-16s.

So enjoy and next time do some research work before you tell someone about their aqals.

And yeah, we use these American LGBs on Chinese F-7P / PGs. No big science is required. Its the laser designation part which is done by the F-16s or other platform which has such system. It was done inhouse.

And as for integration of AIM-9s on F-7s, F-6s, A-5s & Mirages, we did not take anyone's permission nor we asked the Americans for help. It was done inhouse and off course Chinese helped where required. But it was PAF initiative, brain child and they did it nearly on their own.

Hmm, those were the eighties, Taimi, when F-16 was by far the most potent fighter anywhere in South-Asia.

I wonder if Americans would let us integrate the AIM9L/P versions on the JF-17?

But there seems no need as PL5 and PL5 II are both potent enough IR engagements.

 

[Tempest II]

Why SD-10 uses RF proximity fuze instead of modern laser prox fuze ????

It uses a laser proximity fuse

JDW: China SD-10 Missile Technology
February 8 2004 at 2:18 AM

From Jane's Air Launched Weapons 2003
SD-10 (PL-12)

Type: Active-radar guided beyond-visual range air-to-air missile.

Development:

The SD-10 active-radar BVR air-to-air missile is now the highest priority air-to-air weapons programme for China's military industry, and has supplanted several previous developmental projects (such as the PL-10 and PL-11) in terms of effort and importance. When, and if, it enters service, it should provide the People's Liberation Army Air Force with a sophisticated, indigenous airborne weapon that will complement, to some degree the Russian-supplied R-27/R-77 missiles that equip the PLAAF's Sukhoi Su-27 and Su-30 force.
The SD-10 (perhaps known also as the PL-12) is evolving under aegis of the Beijing-based China National Aero Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC), while work on various aspects of the programme is underway at a number of different technical centres around the country. The SD-10 is listed as part of CATIC's current 'Thunder-Lightning' family of air-to-air missiles, that includes the PL-5E, PL- 9C and TY-90 systems (all developed by the Luoyang Electro-Optical Technology Development Center). However, confusion surrounds the provenance, and even the designation, of the SD-10 programme. 'SD- 10' is the export designation of a national programme that may, or may not be, the PL-12.



The PL-12 designation has also been associated with a notional air-to-air development of China's LY-60 surface-to-air missile, but the actual status of this development effort is unclear. The SD-10 on the other hand is a very real programme.



Prior to the emergence of the SD-10, China's active radar seeker AAM development programme was sometimes identified as the 'AMR-1'. During Air Show China 1996, held during November in Zhuhai, the China Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute/No 607 Research Institute exhibited a newly-developed active radar seeker, the AMR-1. This seeker was, in turn, believed to have been applied to a new air- to-air missile design, derived from the LY-60 surface-to-air missile, and dubbed the 'PL-12'. This active radar missile, and the earlier semi-active radar homing PL-11, seemed to have a common design heritage with the Italian Aspide missile, supplied to China during the late 1980s. The status of the PL-11 and 'LY-60/PL-12' development programmes is unclear, but sources within CATIC say these earlier programmes have all been abandoned in favour of the SD-10.



The existence of the SD-10 programme was acknowledged by Chinese officials for the first time in early 2002 (the first pictures of the new missile appeared from Chinese sources during 2001). According to CATIC sources the missile has a range of 80 km. Earlier speculation around the AMR-1/LY-60 programme suggested that a ramjet engine was being developed for it, and such a powerplant would allow a missile to be effective at such long ranges. All available models and artist's impressions of the SD-10 released to date clearly show a rocket-powered missile with a conventional airframe configuration. However, unidentified models of a notional ramjet-powered air-to-air missile have been shown in China and so an enhanced propulsion solution may be under consideration, or even under development, for the SD-10. According to a CATIC engineer, speaking in February 2002, several SD-10 test firings have already been undertaken, and most of the SD-10's subsystems testing had been completed (although the missile was not yet ready for service).

Description

The SD-10 is outwardly very similar to the US-designed AIM-120 AMRAAM. The two share a comparable aerodynamic configuration, although with a length of 3.85m, a diameter of 20.3 cm and a weight of 180 kg the SD-10 is a little longer, wider and heavier than the AMRAAM. The SD-10 has four rear-mounted control fins that each have a very distinctive notch cut into their base. These fins are longer and more prominent than those of the AMRAAM and are cropped at an angle (rather than in line with the missile body). Four larger triangular fins are fixed to the mid-section of the missile. Internally, the leading edge of the centrebody fins is in line with the start of the missile's rocket motor. That motor is a variable-thrust sold rocket booster, that offers two levels of motive power for different sections of the flight envelope.
CATIC is known to be developing X-band and Ku-band active radar seekers, which may be intended for the SD-10. However the latest reports confirm that China has been co-operating closely with Russia's AGAT Research Institute, based in Moscow, and that AGAT is the source of the SD-10's essential active seeker. This joint development effort (perhaps with the name 'Project 129') has reportedly seen the supply of AGAT's 9B-1348 active-radar seeker (developed for the Vympel R-77, AA-12 'Adder') to China for integration with a Chinese-developed missile, the SD-10. Alternatively, technology from AGAT's 9B-1103M seeker family may be offered to China. Russia is also the source for the missile's inertial navigation system and datalink.
The SD-10 has four engagement modes. To take the greatest advantage of its maximum range it will use a mix of command guidance (via a datalink) plus its own inertial guidance before entering the active radar terminal guidance phase. The missile can also be launched to a pre-selected point, using its strap-down inertial system, before switching on its own seeker for a terminal search. Over short ranges the missile can be launched in a 'fire-and-forget' mode using its own active seeker from the outset. Finally, the SD-10 has a 'home-on-jam' mode that allows it to passively track and engage an emitting target, without ever using its own active radar or a radar from the launch aircraft. The seeker is connected to a digital flight control system that uses signal processing techniques to track a target. The missile's warhead is linked to a laser proximity fuse.
The SD-10 is claimed to have an operational ceiling of 20 km, with a maximum effective range of 70 km and a minimum engagement range of 1,000 m. The missile has a 40 g manoeuvring limit and, according to CATIC, it has been tested for a 100-hour captive 'live flight' life.

Operational status

The SD-10 is not yet believed to be in PLAAF service, but is in an advanced stage of development and may have been released for operational test and evaluation with the air force. According to CATIC, the SD- 10 can be carried by a range of aircraft including the J-7 (F-7), J-8 (F- and MiG-series fighters, or any Western aircraft that have been fitted with the missile's PF95 launcher and pylon. The obvious radar limitations of these aircraft make it clear that they will probably never be fitted with the SD-10, at least in Chinese service. While trials firings have probably been conducted using Shenyang J-8 testbeds, it is believed that the SD-10/PL-12 programme is intended, initially, to equip China's fleet of Su-27 (J-11) 'Flankers' as part of a wider nationally-sourced capability enhancement for the PLAAF's 'Flanker' force.
The other potential applications for the SD-10/PL-12 in Chinese service are on the Chengdu J-10 next-generation combat aircraft now under development, perhaps the upgraded Shenyang J-8M 'Finback' and the CATIC FC-1/Super 7 lightweight multirole combat aircraft being developed jointly by China and Pakistan. During 2001 officials at Pakistan's National Development Complex confirmed that the NDC was conducting study/development work on a new active-radar missile programme, a possible reference to the SD-10. Certainly the most prominent 'public appearance' of the SD-10 to date has been on the full-size mock-up of the FC-1/Super 7. Pakistan has established a national production line for the Italian Galileo Avionica (formerly FIAR) Grifo 7 multimode fire-control radar at its Kamra Avionics and Radar Facility. A version of the Grifo radar (Grifo S7) is being developed for the FC-1/Super 7, and the Grifo is already fitted to Pakistan's Chengdu F-7PGs. In July 2002 Galileo Avionica confirmed that it would be offering the latest development of the Grifo radar, the Grifo 2000/16, as a candidate radar for the J-10 once its entered the production phase. Galileo Avionics describes the Grifo 2000/16 (originally designed as a radar for F-16 upgrades) as a modern, modular, multimode radar with enhanced air-to-air capabilities that is compatible with modern BVR missiles.



Specifications

Length: 3.85 m
Body diameter: 203 mm
Wing span: n/k
Launch weight: 180 kg
Warhead: HE fragmentation
Fuze: Active proximity fuse
Guidance: Inertial mid-course and /or datalink updates, with active radar terminal homing
Propulsion: Solid dual-thrust rocket motor
Range: 70 km (in a head on engagement)


Contractor

China National Aero Technology Import & Export Corp (CATIC), Beijing.


Read more: http://www.***************/forums/air-force-aviation/jdw-article-sd-10-a-1159/#ixzz2oKt3rybn

 

[Dazzler]

thanks for correction (y)

 

[BATMAN]

In Russian:

Пакистан запускает в производство новую версию боевого самолета Block-II JF-17 — ОРУЖИЕ РОССИИ, Информационное агентство

 

[razgriz19]

@nomi007

If you don't know about something or about history then atleast ask respecfully or before telling me about my aqal, get yours checked up by googling up. We got the Laser Guided Bombs / Kits way back in eighties. Some even say we got them soon after we inducted the first batch of F-16s. Do remember we integrated the Thomson ALTIS pod for nothing way back in 1986. Its integration meant we had laser guided weaponry in 1986 or even before that.

Below are two very old pictures of PAF F-16s with LGBs being loaded up and one which is fully loaded up with LGBs & ALTIS targeting pod. Do see the uniforms being wore by the PAF personnel, this is something which they wore decades back. And both these pictures are very very old. I remember very clearly of having gone to PAF Lahore base in late eighties on the Defence Day and seeing these bombs beside the F-16s.

So enjoy and next time do some research work before you tell someone about their aqals.

And yeah, we use these American LGBs on Chinese F-7P / PGs. No big science is required. Its the laser designation part which is done by the F-16s or other platform which has such system. It was done inhouse.

And as for integration of AIM-9s on F-7s, F-6s, A-5s & Mirages, we did not take anyone's permission nor we asked the Americans for help. It was done inhouse and off course Chinese helped where required. But it was PAF initiative, brain child and they did it nearly on their own.

Since ATLIS II are limited to daylight, will they be replaced by any other Pod in near future? considering our falcons have already been upgraded. They should be able to use Sniper XR pods, which we already posses for block 52s.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

blk 2 will have a fixed IFR, there is not enough room for a retrectable IFR, no light/medium fighter can accommodate it hence the fixed IFR.

thanks for correction (y)

Even a fuel tank can have a retractable probe.

 

[S.U.R.B.]

Fellows ,i may be missing something the way i see it.So, i've a question to clarify any doubts.

As the condition is that we have to use the technique of probe and drogue refueling.

Can we not put a retractable probe in the fuselage on the center line right opposite the central fuel tank at the spine?

One can presume that the majority of the electronics will occupy the space in a dual seater,but can it not be done in the current version?


Edited images to present the case:


1-Retracted state

2- Refueling state.

The tip of the refueling probe will reach almost over the canopy: the pilot can easily see it or can use a mirror to visualize it.

 

[gambit]

The R-77 Radar seeker variant and the AIM-120 both use RF proximity fuses. The PAC-3 missile and the S-400 SAM also use RF proximity fuzing.The HAL Astra will use RF fusing as well..is it outdated?.

There is no modern or outdated about it. Laser fuzes are possible on Radar missiles as well but it depends on the costs tradeoff vs accuracy.
This little link shows how fuzing works and what accuracy is enough. If a RF fuze provides amble accuracy for the needs...why would you add a Laser fuze for the heck of it?
Chapter 14 Fuzing

Early IR missiles used IR proximity fusing and switched to laser for increased accuracy.

On the surface, the use of laser proximity fusing may sound 'advanced' and give the quick impression that a particular missile design is superior to its competitors. But the truth may not be very kind.

Yes, the use of laser proximity fusing would take advantage of greater accuracy in calculating the optimal detonation distance, but that greater accuracy could be more because the missile itself is not as advanced in the flight controls department as its competitors.

Pure pursuit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pure pursuit is a type of pursuit curve used in aerial combat in which an aircraft pursues another aircraft by pointing its nose directly towards it.[1] This is in contrast with lead pursuit, in which the chasing aircraft points ahead of the aircraft it is following (typically used when attempting a gun attack) and lag pursuit, in which the chasing aircraft points behind the aircraft it is following (typically used when attempting a rear-aspect missileattack).

Scitation: Missile Guidance by Three‐Dimensional Proportional Navigation

Following a brief comparison of three collision‐seeking types of navigation—pure pursuit, constant‐bearing collision, and proportional navigation—the usual definition of planar proportional navigation is extended to three dimensions.

In air-air combat, the pure pursuit (PP) situation is the ideal situation for any weapon, be it guns or missile. PP navigation laws are the most simple to write and implement. The negative for any missile with only PPN laws is that the missile must be launched in the tail chase situation, severely limiting the pilot's air combat options, even worse than WW II because back then, at least the pilot have the head-on engagement option with the guns.

When there are more complex engagement situations, proportional navigation (PN) are employed and this requires sophisticated sensor to better track the highly maneuverable target and matching sophistication in PN laws to exploit accurate target locations provided by the sensor.

If the sensor/PN integration and the laws are sophisticated enough, and there are great variations among them, radar based proximity fusing will be adequate. Otherwise, you want to detonate as close to the target as you can based upon the best available sensor target data you have and laser proximity fusing is the best.