JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Storm Force]

Orangzieb re your post

And what makes you think SU-30 isn't detectable? The thing shines like a light house on a radar screen man. You're talking and arguing to the wrong people here. I won't expect F-14 to be Stealty or hard to detect. It's a massive plane. It's BOUND to be detected. Similarly, versions of F-15 and F-18 that haven't been upgraded recently with certain things, are also light houses for radar waves.



Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...ole-fighter-thread-4-a-499.html#ixzz23KhncFT8

Any fighter once its loaded with weapons fuel tanks etc EXPOSES itself and shines like a LIGHT HOUSE

4th generation fighters have NOT BEEN BUILT to be undectable THEY ARE ALL SHINE lound and clear

WHAT seperates the BEST 4th generation fighters from the worst is the following

Engines & TWR performance = 2 ENGINES better than one TVC = better AOA
Range & payload ......MORE = BETTER
Radars & EW suites .....(THE BIGGER THE BETTER ) = HARDER to jam & better processors bigger range
Weapons performance ........western weapons better then eastern ie meterore mica and amraam better reliability than R77 R27 and most likely sd10

Small planes are cheaper to buy cheaper to maintain and CARRY less combat threaty as their mission profiles are limited by

range. power and load and SEL;F PROTECTION jammers.

BEST MULTI ROLE PLATFORMS in 4th generation world are 2 engined expensive fighters

Euro fighter , rafale , F18 super hornets, Flankers su30/35 , F15E

in the single engined catagory when you compare the 4 principle 4th fighters ie F16 J10 MIRAGE2000 & GRIPEN

They all out perform JF17 in the 4 ciritical areas i have suggested ie

Engines & TWR performance = 2 ENGINES better than one TVC = better AOA
Range & payload ......MORE = BETTER
Radars & EW suites .....(THE BIGGER THE BETTER ) = HARDER to jam & better processors bigger range
Weapons performance ........western weapons better then eastern ie meterore mica and amraam better reliability than R77 R27 and most likely sd10

 

[gambit]

Hi,

Is it like the hole in the ocean for submarines----which means the ocean has certain sounds in it----so if you detect no sounds in a certain area of the ocean---or if the sounds are abnormal---it would mean that there is a submarine over there---or something of concern!

The analogy is appropriate only up to a certain point for radar.

What you are saying is that the passive sensor establishes an average and low levels of background noise over an expanse. Then it tracks the entire field for any abrupt drop.

For a sub, the method must be directional mic...

Hydrophones, Sonar, and Other Listening Gear

Hydrophones are extremely simple in concept. In the most basic form, a microphone is extended through the bottom of the vessel. By rotating the microphone, the sound operator is able to listen for propeller and machinery noises that might indicate the presence of a submarine.

It didn't take long for the engineers to realise that a pair of highly directional microphones, separated by a few feet and able to be rotated at the centre of the connecting bar, would be more efficient than a single microphone. With each microphone feeding into the operator's corresponding earphone, a skilled operator could get a more accurate bearing on the sound source.

But this tactic depends on the target generating some amount of noise itself and that noise must be and usually is non-natural. It does not have to rise above background noise. It just need to have different characteristics.

But the ocean deep is not atmosphere above. Like the ocean, the atmosphere does have layers of different air density and ionization that will affect radar signals travels. Likewise, there are layers in the ocean that will affect sonar waves and will create 'holes' or 'shadow zones'...

The difference is that for ocean, these 'shadow zones' are not fixed like mountains or buildings. Salinity can and will change. Storms and seasonal temperature changes do occurs. These things will affect and move these 'holes' and 'shadow zones'.

What sonarmen do is listens to movements OTHER THAN the target sub. In any area that is teeming with sea life, a sub is a most non-natural object and sea life will avoid this object. They can tell when a school of fish is moving normally and if there is a sudden rise in cavitation when the school move as a unit, the sonarman can actually tell if the cause of that sudden movement is from the sub's screw or from the bow, in other words, the sub's screw is more frightening than its bow, so if the screw starts to spin, the school of fish will be startled more than if the sub's bow starts to change position. But if the sonarman is looking for a sub in an area where there are little or if no marine life at all to give him that baseline background noise, the enemy sub could be right next door and he would not know about it.

To complicate matters...

'Cloak of Silence' Tech Could Hide Submarines : Discovery News

"Our focus is not about dampening noise, but to guide sound waves around structures," said Nicholas Fang, a professor a the University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign and coauthor, along with Shu Zhang and Leilei Yin, on a paper that appears in the journal Physical Review Letters.

So the intention is to detect any background noise then to 'guide' or recreate that background noise on the other side of the sub?

This is the F-22 as a claimed 'antenna farm'. What make anyone think any or all of those antennas cannot mimic the background noise" ?

 

[Donatello]

For those interested in the passive systems, (Sentry in this case)

http://servv89pn0aj.sn.sourcedns.com/~gbpprorg/mil/radar/sentry.pdf

 

[Nishan_101]

I don't think so that with the Block-IIs we will going to be able to produce it on our own as we will require Chinese money with interest in it(which is 100% Haram in ISLAM) like the JF-17 we have now are also on loans with interest from China.

 

[Viper0011.]

Orangzieb re your post

Any fighter once its loaded with weapons fuel tanks etc EXPOSES itself and shines like a LIGHT HOUSE

4th generation fighters have NOT BEEN BUILT to be undectable THEY ARE ALL SHINE lound and clear

WHAT seperates the BEST 4th generation fighters from the worst is the following

Engines & TWR performance = 2 ENGINES better than one TVC = better AOA
Range & payload ......MORE = BETTER
Radars & EW suites .....(THE BIGGER THE BETTER ) = HARDER to jam & better processors bigger range
Weapons performance ........western weapons better then eastern ie meterore mica and amraam better reliability than R77 R27 and most likely sd10

Small planes are cheaper to buy cheaper to maintain and CARRY less combat threaty as their mission profiles are limited by

range. power and load and SEL;F PROTECTION jammers.

BEST MULTI ROLE PLATFORMS in 4th generation world are 2 engined expensive fighters

Euro fighter , rafale , F18 super hornets, Flankers su30/35 , F15E

in the single engined catagory when you compare the 4 principle 4th fighters ie F16 J10 MIRAGE2000 & GRIPEN

They all out perform JF17 in the 4 ciritical areas i have suggested ie

Engines & TWR performance = 2 ENGINES better than one TVC = better AOA
Range & payload ......MORE = BETTER
Radars & EW suites .....(THE BIGGER THE BETTER ) = HARDER to jam & better processors bigger range
Weapons performance ........western weapons better then eastern ie meterore mica and amraam better reliability than R77 R27 and most likely sd10

Ok, here we go yet AGAIN. Re-read my posts.You are saying what I've been saying all along. But wait. There is one thing different this time. The point that you are making about Eurofighter, F18, Rafale, etc being better than the JFT.
This wasn't the point of the discussion or the posts I was responding to. The topic was so far 'stealthy features' and we were discussing F-22 types of characteristics, training, radars, etc. Folks from your country kept suggesting how mighty, advanced and stealthy the SU-30 is......to which I disagreed and provided facts. It's a good plane. It's not the 'best of the best', period!

Now if you're going to twist all that nonesense written by the your countrymen and turn the discussion around how SU-30 is better than JFT.....again, you are wasting time. I've already said yes to that. It is a different class heavy air superiority fighter. No doubt about it. So I am not even sure why we are writing posts about it if we've all agreed that Su-30 is a better and heavier plane than JFT!!!!
It is SOOO HARD to have an object discussion with our Indian members here. SOO much fake ego and pride ends up causing pages of worthless posts!!! Wish the emotionality can ever be controlled when discussing objective factual aspects on things.

 

[Storm Force]

Orangzieb.

STEALTH or stealth features DONT EXIST on JF17 THUNDER or indeed any 4th generation. fighter.

No ppoint in you bringing this into equation.

THIS THREAD is abt THUNDER and to discuss THUNDER for wat it can DO today... AND wat can be improved we need to look at

TWR = engine
Radar = AESA or PESA technology
Jammers & EW suites = western technology mixed with chinease cockpit
Weapons= CAN THUNDER carry bigger western mix of amraams or mica to give it more LETHALITY

rcs & stealth in a THUNDER conversation or i ndeed SU30 topic is nonesense

THAT WAS MY POINT

 

[Viper0011.]

Orangzieb.

STEALTH or stealth features DONT EXIST on JF17 THUNDER or indeed any 4th generation. fighter.

No ppoint in you bringing this into equation.

THIS THREAD is abt THUNDER and to discuss THUNDER for wat it can DO today... AND wat can be improved we need to look at

TWR = engine
Radar = AESA or PESA technology
Jammers & EW suites = western technology mixed with chinease cockpit
Weapons= CAN THUNDER carry bigger western mix of amraams or mica to give it more LETHALITY

rcs & stealth in a THUNDER conversation or i ndeed SU30 topic is nonesense

THAT WAS MY POINT

My man, I agree with your points. BUT the post you responded to, wasn't about THESE points you mentioned above. Those posts were strictly how big SU-30's di*k is compared to the rest of the world. And that's what I was trying to explain that it wasn't true. But yes, I agree, this is a JFT thread, let's not talk about SU-30's strengths or weaknesses. At the end of the day, it is a mere plane like others. Not F-22!

 

[Viper0011.]

Well it begs the question that why were you actually telling how big the flanker's d*ick is when it doesn't matter since it wasn't made for d*ck measuring. It has other strengths and you refuse to talk about it. Why discussing about 5th gen features on a fourth gen plane?

I imagine you are 18 or about to turn 18? You've blown context out of proportion. The reason about SU-30's di*k statement was due to folks from your homeland constantly pushing it as 'SU-30' is the best thing since wrestling. Might of the flight, the crown jewl of the avaiation industry. Which it's not. So, I provided facts.

Then the discussion went towards Radars of Su-30 and JFT. I told the same to folks who were trying to detect F-22 from JFT's radar from 30 KM away that they were being silly to do such comparisons. So, again, I am NOT sure why the Indian members take stuff so personally. Propaganda is good but stupidity isn't propaganda...it's mere stupidity. That's what we wasted so many posts on, including this one.

Can we PLEASE get back to JFT? I am no longer responding to silly high school he said she said posts like the above!

Let's change the topic.

Does anyone has pictures of JFT BII? and info on the additional JFT's that weren't being put into the next squadron?

 

[Viper0011.]

Sadly Its not any Indian fanboy who is ranting Su30MKI is world's best... you 1st make silly statements like JF-17 can do wonders and and its radar is better than other radars which are superior both in Area, power and Technology... and there's no physics in comparing machines..... and when someone tries to correct you refuse to learn and talk of derailing the thread.... for once get a life and show me a single post made by an Indian on this thread which says that Su30MKI is world's best.

All 499 pages of it... and 7438 posts.. show me a single Indian post saying as such... and here I can show you 4-5 posts made by Pakistani posters in just the last 2 pages and numerous If I go further back.

You know i've already given credit to SU-30 over JFT in many posts right? But it is NOT an almighty plane. That's the point, I've provided a ton of facts that I can. The rest I can't and hope you understand that. Now, for the nth amount of time, SU-30 is a heavier class fighter with definitely a much larger and better radar than JFT. I am a fair guy, I'll give credit to where its deserved, and I won't give it where its unnecessary.

Su-30 has no comparison to EFT, F-15 ( blocks) and F-22. If this was better or similar, India wouldn't need to go to Rafale or anything else!!! If one platform works and is considered the best, you don't hop on to others. The US is not going to now look into F-24 for a while. The F-22 and JSF (specially for the Marines and the Navy) do what the US needs. So the next few decades will be focused on these two.

Let's stop this Nonsense topic and stick to JFT as the thread was for it. Not for the F-22 or JSF or ET or other planes.

Moderators, could we please stop the nonsense here about SU-30? It's wasting a lot of time and drive space on the servers!

 

[SQ8]

Any more discussion other than a the JF-17, or scratching cojonies in a vs post will be considered off topic and liable for infractions.

 

[FFlame87]

Man... these F22s, F35s and Typhoons are on every bloody thread. People seriously...

Let me quickly differentiate between the war machines and obviously I am talking about JF-17's POV.

F22s, F35s and Typhoons all three high tech and over priced war machines are heavily equipped with electronical systems and backup computers and the best of composite materials which helps in stealth (we can discuss that in different threads). Being honest I was also crazy about all the three planes about 2-3 years ago while I was studying BEng. However, as time passed by and I gained more knowledge and professional experience, I figured that all this BULLS*** is totally marketing and a nice try to instill fear into the enemies. Just because they are stealth, they are not invisible. Radar technology is also advancing at a good rate and sure there are high tech radars which can detect these so called stealth aircrafts not to mention over propagated F22. BTW I am not saying they are crap planes, undoubtedly they are pretty capable but they are not GOD.

JF-17 on the other hand is an aircraft with SIMILAR capabilities as these high tech fighters. Many improvements can take place in order to improve the designs and we can even make it stealth. If you expect a new born company to compete with NASA, is that possible? I don't think so. To develop such high tech things, a lot of resources and experience is required.

If Pakistan can produce JF-17 as their first ever home grown aircraft. Then just think what we will produce inshAllah within the coming 50 years. Every country has copied each other's design in fighter aircraft design race. Let me tell you guys a secret. F117 so called the stealth fighter is purely designed by and engineered by the German engineers but USA stopped their project by blackmailing and threats and stole their idea.

As for JF-17's technical abilities are concerned, well very simply we PAF's engineers need to integrate the avionics smartly that we already have into the cockpit. Electronical systems is all about perfect integration thats it. The circuit board in the aircraft is similar to the one in our desktop PC. Some smart S down the line thought of integrating it with planes and boom, now you have computer controlled surfaces.

I will be honest, F22s and F35s will only be used in very limited situations because of their costs. If Pakistan ever goes to war, we will be fighting same old F16s, Rafales and SUs and I do firmly believe JF-17 is more than capable in bringing these girls down.

Long live PAF!

 

[MastanKhan]

Man... these F22s, F35s and Typhoons are on every bloody thread. People seriously...

Let me quickly differentiate between the war machines and obviously I am talking about JF-17's POV.

F22s, F35s and Typhoons all three high tech and over priced war machines are heavily equipped with electronical systems and backup computers and the best of composite materials which helps in stealth (we can discuss that in different threads). Being honest I was also crazy about all the three planes about 2-3 years ago while I was studying BEng. However, as time passed by and I gained more knowledge and professional experience, I figured that all this BULLS*** is totally marketing and a nice try to instill fear into the enemies. Just because they are stealth, they are not invisible. Radar technology is also advancing at a good rate and sure there are high tech radars which can detect these so called stealth aircrafts not to mention over propagated F22. BTW I am not saying they are crap planes, undoubtedly they are pretty capable but they are not GOD.

JF-17 on the other hand is an aircraft with SIMILAR capabilities as these high tech fighters. Many improvements can take place in order to improve the designs and we can even make it stealth. If you expect a new born company to compete with NASA, is that possible? I don't think so. To develop such high tech things, a lot of resources and experience is required.

If Pakistan can produce JF-17 as their first ever home grown aircraft. Then just think what we will produce inshAllah within the coming 50 years. Every country has copied each other's design in fighter aircraft design race. Let me tell you guys a secret. F117 so called the stealth fighter is purely designed by and engineered by the German engineers but USA stopped their project by blackmailing and threats and stole their idea.

As for JF-17's technical abilities are concerned, well very simply we PAF's engineers need to integrate the avionics smartly that we already have into the cockpit. Electronical systems is all about perfect integration thats it. The circuit board in the aircraft is similar to the one in our desktop PC. Some smart S down the line thought of integrating it with planes and boom, now you have computer controlled surfaces.

I will be honest, F22s and F35s will only be used in very limited situations because of their costs. If Pakistan ever goes to war, we will be fighting same old F16s, Rafales and SUs and I do firmly believe JF-17 is more than capable in bringing these girls down.

Long live PAF!

Hi,

2--3 years ago you were studying engineering ---- and now you have the experience to talk here---. Kid what illusion do you prescribe to----is there a limit to pakistanis idiocy----where do these fools grow---.

Why do you youngmen like to make a fool of yourself in front of the world by speaking of things that you have no clue of. Your BSC or MSC degree from pakistan does not tell you sh-it about the capabilities of these aircraft---it only tells you what you want to believe in.

God almighty---what a fools paradise these young men of pakistan live in---.

Suddenly the JF17 will have similiar capabilites in electronics---don't you kids feel any shame when you lie so blantantly----don't you young men feel that you are cheating your country when you tell these lies---totally shocking.

 

[FFlame87]

Hi,

2--3 years ago you were studying engineering ---- and now you have the experience to talk here---. Kid what illusion do you prescribe to----is there a limit to pakistanis idiocy----where do these fools grow---.

Why do you youngmen like to make a fool of yourself in front of the world by speaking of things that you have no clue of. Your BSC or MSC degree from pakistan does not tell you sh-it about the capabilities of these aircraft---it only tells you what you want to believe in.

God almighty---what a fools paradise these young men of pakistan live in---.

Suddenly the JF17 will have similiar capabilites in electronics---don't you kids feel any shame when you lie so blantantly----don't you young men feel that you are cheating your country when you tell these lies---totally shocking.

Thank you sir. I am sure you have much more awareness than I have but please don't misunderstand things. I didn't say that JF-17 have similar capabilities in electronics, instead I said JF-17 have similar capabilities full stop. With my little knowledge and no experience, I believe that electronic capabilities of F22, F35 and Typhoons is undoubtedly the best in the world however having the best avionics doesn't mean you will win the war.

Aircraft's capabilities are measured by its overall performance such as speed, aerodynamics, stealth, thrust to weight ratio, range and also avionics and other stuff as well. JF-17 is a 4th generation fighter exactly as Typhoon, F22 and F35, it is missing two things, very high tech avionics and stealth, otherwise it is as good as the other aircrafts.

Also, I haven't studied in Pakistan but thank you for your comment. I can understand where you are coming from.

One more issue I would like to elaborate here, F22 and F35 are overpriced for what they give you, therefore, my well aware friend, USA has only a small squadron of them. One aircraft you can argue about if you want to is the Eurofighter because it's capabilities match its unit price.

I do apologize for being unclear but you shouldn't be so judgemental. Hope that helps.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Man... these F22s, F35s and Typhoons are on every bloody thread. People seriously...

Let me quickly differentiate between the war machines and obviously I am talking about JF-17's POV.

F22s, F35s and Typhoons all three high tech and over priced war machines are heavily equipped with electronical systems and backup computers and the best of composite materials which helps in stealth (we can discuss that in different threads). Being honest I was also crazy about all the three planes about 2-3 years ago while I was studying BEng. However, as time passed by and I gained more knowledge and professional experience, I figured that all this BULLS*** is totally marketing and a nice try to instill fear into the enemies. Just because they are stealth, they are not invisible. Radar technology is also advancing at a good rate and sure there are high tech radars which can detect these so called stealth aircrafts not to mention over propagated F22. BTW I am not saying they are crap planes, undoubtedly they are pretty capable but they are not GOD.

JF-17 on the other hand is an aircraft with SIMILAR capabilities as these high tech fighters. Many improvements can take place in order to improve the designs and we can even make it stealth. If you expect a new born company to compete with NASA, is that possible? I don't think so. To develop such high tech things, a lot of resources and experience is required.

If Pakistan can produce JF-17 as their first ever home grown aircraft. Then just think what we will produce inshAllah within the coming 50 years. Every country has copied each other's design in fighter aircraft design race. Let me tell you guys a secret. F117 so called the stealth fighter is purely designed by and engineered by the German engineers but USA stopped their project by blackmailing and threats and stole their idea.

As for JF-17's technical abilities are concerned, well very simply we PAF's engineers need to integrate the avionics smartly that we already have into the cockpit. Electronical systems is all about perfect integration thats it. The circuit board in the aircraft is similar to the one in our desktop PC. Some smart S down the line thought of integrating it with planes and boom, now you have computer controlled surfaces.

I will be honest, F22s and F35s will only be used in very limited situations because of their costs. If Pakistan ever goes to war, we will be fighting same old F16s, Rafales and SUs and I do firmly believe JF-17 is more than capable in bringing these girls down.

Long live PAF!

Well it is an open secret that F 117 wasn't an American design...it was a design formulated by Piotr Ufimtsev and he was smuggled into the US in the late 60s. He later worked in the University of California. What you are talking about is the flying wing design of the 1940s that was first seen in the HO-228 by the Horten brothers that was adopted by the North American Aviation in the design of the B2 Spirit.

The Americans pretty well knew that their Russian and European counterparts can develop weapons on par with them in design so they wanted to stay hidden till the last minute where they can see the enemy but enemy cannot see them. That is where the clause called stealth came into being. The rule of warfare from the start has been that 'if you can hit the enemy at a longer range why bother engaging in a fist fight with him'.

So Americans concentrated more on electronics for early detection of the enemy and perfecting their long ranged weapon systems to take out the enemy before he can get into a knife fight.

Same way the opponent created a shield for himself and to counter it he brought in anti-jamming systems and then electronic warfare evolved. This has been going on since the day of swords and bow and arrows. Right now the Americans are in the lead in spotting, categorizing and shooting the enemy before the enemy can do it.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=AD0733203

Just read this book and form and try to form an aircraft it will end up looking like something resembling the night hawk...being a Aeronautical engineer yourself you can easily do it.

And the policy of getting a more advanced aircraft is to make the aircraft do twice the workload as pposed to the previous generation.

Thank you sir. I am sure you have much more awareness than I have but please don't misunderstand things. I didn't say that JF-17 have similar capabilities in electronics, instead I said JF-17 have similar capabilities full stop. With my little knowledge and no experience, I believe that electronic capabilities of F22, F35 and Typhoons is undoubtedly the best in the world however having the best avionics doesn't mean you will win the war.

Aircraft's capabilities are measured by its overall performance such as speed, aerodynamics, stealth, thrust to weight ratio, range and also avionics and other stuff as well. JF-17 is a 4th generation fighter exactly as Typhoon, F22 and F35, it is missing two things, very high tech avionics and stealth, otherwise it is as good as the other aircrafts.

Also, I haven't studied in Pakistan but thank you for your comment. I can understand where you are coming from.

One more issue I would like to elaborate here, F22 and F35 are overpriced for what they give you, therefore, my well aware friend, USA has only a small squadron of them. One aircraft you can argue about if you want to is the Eurofighter because it's capabilities match its unit price.

I do apologize for being unclear but you shouldn't be so judgemental. Hope that helps.

Well the basic difference between the JF and the fighters you mentioned is the electrical output of the engine and the weight class. To put in a large mount of avionics and EW systems you need enough electrical output to spare. The Radar is the major factor that uses a large amount of the electrical power and next comes the Jamming and anti-jamming systems followed by the ECM ad ECCM. As you see the high end fighters have a large engine or twin engines that can deliver more electrical output compared to a smaller engine in the JF and it is single engine. So cramming up more advanced avionics which consumes more power is not possible.

So comparison with F-22, F 35 and the typhoon is futile.

 

[FFlame87]

Dear Satish Kumar,

You are correct in some way but what you said is the perception and story told by the US in the history books. When I was pursuing MSc in UK, I was friends with a German person who was pursuing PhD in Aero Eng. We book got into a discussion about aircrafts and F22s and F117 Nighthawks. He stopped me for a moment and digged out the old german book of aeronautics. I don't know if that was commercial book or may be some drawings of the first german stealth fighter aircraft. He told me the German perspective and he clearly stated that US blackmailed and threated Germany to abort the stealth project. But I guess you will believe what US will feed through its elaborate hard cover history books.

Another thing is, thanks for the link BTW, being an aero engineer doesn't make it easier to design an aircraft. You go and say to your MSc supervisor that you would like to design and build a UAV (not even an aircraft) for your dissertation project. He would laught at you. Even a tiny UAV has to be worked on by a team, one person dealing with aerodynamics, one with landing gear, one with avionics, one with wings (aerofoil mainly), one with tires, one with structure materials, blah blah blah....

You get the point...

I am not arguing with you or anyone else, I am a human and information that I have might be wrong, but you learn through time. And BTW you are a bit deviated in regards to twice the workload of the previous generation. I think you should check out the history of aviation. One example is A380 and B787, both were supposed to be competitors models however both represent completely different customers.

Hope the helps.