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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

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If networking all fighter planes through satellite. America would have not develop Link-16 for their F-16's, F-15's or F-22. Satellite networking is optional in every aircraft because it's not reliable as well as feasible due to the strength of signals which are weak and can easily be jammed in Hi tech EW environment

ok i an unaware on what type of data is transmitted on link 16.
they my be used to transmit all sorts of data and i dont know about that..
but position awareness between aircrafts was not available in GPS as it was 1980s technology..Unlike Beidou which is current era technology.
 
www.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_16#_

ok had a read on wiki (oh what will we do without wiki).
it looks like Link 16 is a network comprising of terrestrial radio wave communication...and stations cannot communicate beyond horizon..and have to be within line of sight..
it gives text message and voice com fascility in addition to position awareness between stations.

now beidou has text message fascility but not vioce com.
but stations can comminicate with each other by sending each other short messages and positions..anywhere on earth and dont need to be withing line of sight of each other...
and thats where beidou is better than link 16.
 
www.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_16#_

ok had a read on wiki (oh what will we do without wiki).
it looks like Link 16 is a network comprising of terrestrial radio wave communication...and stations cannot communicate beyond horizon..and have to be within line of sight..
it gives text message and voice com fascility in addition to position awareness between stations.

now beidou has text message fascility but not vioce com.
but stations can comminicate with each other by sending each other short messages and positions..anywhere on earth and dont need to be withing line of sight of each other...
and thats where beidou is better than link 16.

There is a big down-side to that as well. The Beidou Central System will be able to monitor the location of every Beidou device.
Will the PAF be comfortable with that?
 
Beidou Chips in JF 17 ? :what:

Not yet, Beidou is not yet mature.

www.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_16#_

ok had a read on wiki (oh what will we do without wiki).
it looks like Link 16 is a network comprising of terrestrial radio wave communication...and stations cannot communicate beyond horizon..and have to be within line of sight..
it gives text message and voice com fascility in addition to position awareness between stations.

now beidou has text message fascility but not vioce com.
but stations can comminicate with each other by sending each other short messages and positions..anywhere on earth and dont need to be withing line of sight of each other...
and thats where beidou is better than link 16.

You are confusing software with hardware..
Beidou is a GPS system, comprised of hardware(sats) and software(comm protocols..etc) .
Link-16 is a communications protocol which runs on multiple types of equipment.
Its like saying that Video on Macs is better than skype.. You dont know what the Macs are running for video.. and Skype is not limited to one platform or one medium.

Link-16 is simple a standard on how communication should be done between two or more parties, it is hardware independent.
Now, Link-16 is sold commercially by other vendors(as they see it) or can be implemented inhouse by anyone who has access to the standards(its like Gulab jamun.. you can buy it off the shelf.. or try to make your own from the recipe). And the thing with many of these NATO recipes is that they are freely available.
How you make the recipe, how you code it.. is up to you.
Beidou for eg.. may be running a convolutional encoder.. just as GPS does..
here is a US company's implementation of one.. available freely on the net.
/* CONVOLUTIONAL ENCODER */
/* Copyright (c) 1999, Spectrum Applications, Derwood, MD, USA */
/* All rights reserved */
/* Version 2.0 Last Modified 1999.02.17 */

//#include <alloc.h>
//#include <conio.h>
#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>

#include "vdsim.h"

void cnv_encd(int g[2][K], short input_len, short *in_array, short *out_array) {

int m; /* K - 1 */
int t, tt; /* bit time, symbol time */
int j, k; /* loop variables */
//short *unencoded_data; /* pointer to data array */
int shift_reg[K]; /* the encoder shift register */
int sr_head; /* index to the first elt in the sr */
int p, q; /* the upper and lower xor gate outputs */
.
.
.
/* Now start the encoding process */
/* compute the upper and lower mod-two adder outputs, one bit at a time */
for (t = 0; t < input_len + m; t++) {
shift_reg[sr_head] = *( unencoded_data + t );
p = 0;
q = 0;
for (j = 0; j < K; j++) {
k = (j + sr_head) % K;
p ^= shift_reg[k] & g[0][j];
q ^= shift_reg[k] & g[1][j];
}

/* write the upper and lower xor gate outputs as channel symbols */
*(out_array + tt) = p;
tt = tt + 1;
*(out_array + tt) = q;
tt = tt + 1;
.
.
.
}

Any smart coder would decide not to reinvent the wheel.. instead would look for something pre-existing.. and try to adapt, improve or emulate it for their own use. The same goes for Link-16.. "recipes" were already available. So all that had to be done was to cook it.. which has been done locally(with improvements).
So the Jf-17 uses Link-16 as its datalink system(which may or may not be used to communicate via Beidou as well).. and will in the future.. use a GPS/Beidou hybrid for positioning and targeting data.
 
There is a big down-side to that as well. The Beidou Central System will be able to monitor the location of every Beidou device.
Will the PAF be comfortable with that?

thats was true for Beidou-1 which had a a handful of geostationery satellites and was "active" positioning system...and any station that needed a position update HAD to transmit a signal to the satellite which inturn transferred the data to ground station in china where the position was calculated an then transmitted back to whoever was asking a position update..
that way the chinese ground station knew pisition of each and every Beidou-1 receiving station..Not because they were spying..but due to the position calculation mechanism used in that system..
May be thats why we dont see any Beidou-1 receivers in chinese export weaponry..including JF-17.
However Beidou-2 is passive navigation system..same as GPS..and no signal is required to be transmitted to the satellite and possition is calculated at tge receiver...notat the chinese ground station.....so unlike Beidou-1..in Beidou-2 the chinese ground station wont know the receiving station position.

The communication between receiving stations is via a command module..which can be bought and installed inside pakistan abd isnt expensive at all ... via The command module ..the stations communicate with the satellite abd each other..and chinese ground master station or any other station has no involvement in that.
 
@Oscar..
ok..so its just a set of standars for radio communications.

thanks for the info..i will have a read about it.
 
Hi,

I will say something---that will shock some of you----maybe not---whomsoever says Allah is protecting pakistan----is totally clueless as to what he is saying---it is a normal comment by the pakistanis----they simply are degrading and disrespecting their LORD GOD---.

What it comes down to in meaning---that the God of pakistanis is technically so bad that in his best capacity He is running such a miserable and pathetic and poorly managed country----. If you look at the Lord of this universe---you will see that millions and billions of stars are moving in rhythm and synchronicity---our solar system----the God of our solar system had created a perfection----.

So when you look at the God of pakistan and the God of this univers---they don't look to be the same----neither their actions are the same---nor their management is the same---one is perfection and the other!!!!!!!!

Or----there is no GOD left in pakistan----the almighty has taken its leave and let the paks on their own.

It is not a miralce that pakistan is safe----nations once formed---don't die like people----during bad times---they go into their 'death throws'-----the deaths of nations takes a very long time just like a dying star----but sometimes in nation---there lights a spark to re-invigorate the energy.

Mr Farooqi----you lost it so early my boy----this race is not a sprint----but rather a marathon----.

You know why the pakistanis won't learn----because the pakistani men and boys and girls and women don't have the learning abilities----.

When you talk to young people here in america---they are eager to learn and understand---their minds are always opme---on the other hand---pakistanis over here and at home----even young kids---are mentally so thick---even educated class----. You know how people get to that place---where they cannot or need not learn----that is when their Gods have left them to live in their own ***** and disgust.

Mr. Khan

what choice had I left with almost every body on this forum was making fun of me for suggesting what I suggested. I had to revert back to God for protection of Pakistan since nobody seems to understood what I was saying. We refuse to admit our mistakes and refuse to take the corrective path.
 
Mr. Khan

what choice had I left with almost every body on this forum was making fun of me for suggesting what I suggested. I had to revert back to God for protection of Pakistan since nobody seems to understood what I was saying. We refuse to admit our mistakes and refuse to take the corrective path.
suggestion must have some sense brother u are suggesting us to have an elephant when we have nothing to eat for our self....... j 11 gripen euro fighters all are good and we also need it but were the hell $$$ came from ?????? as for now jf 17 is the latest and best we can have an afford so why call it a junk and down morals of our nation ????????? Jf 17 is developing we all know and with world finest pilots we can do the job to defend our self ...... j 10 is in progress and suppose to have best chines can offer us now so why not wait for it and see what it is capable of ... it is one of the finest chines fighter and world still not fully know about its full capabilities so just wait and prey for our economical situation to get better then we will have the best that world can offer Insha Allah
 
suggestion must have some sense brother u are suggesting us to have an elephant when we have nothing to eat for our self....... j 11 gripen euro fighters all are good and we also need it but were the hell $$$ came from ?????? as for now jf 17 is the latest and best we can have an afford so why call it a junk and down morals of our nation ????????? Jf 17 is developing we all know and with world finest pilots we can do the job to defend our self ...... j 10 is in progress and suppose to have best chines can offer us now so why not wait for it and see what it is capable of ... it is one of the finest chines fighter and world still not fully know about its full capabilities so just wait and prey for our economical situation to get better then we will have the best that world can offer Insha Allah

Horses would not be able to fight against elephants. To fight 300+ elephants you got to have at lest 50 elephants. As per PAF Falcon website we are planning to spent $3 billion to $5 billion on JFT program. Couldn't we use one Billion from that to acquire 50+ J11B? Would have solved the problem. It is the policy of single engine planes which I have a problem with. I have read many times on this forum that money may not be the issue. But I do believe money is the issue and we did not use the available funds wisely.

I am a believer of my faith. But God helps those who help themselves. I do believe our economy will get better but still it is the thinking of PAF which I have serious doubts about
 
suggestion must have some sense brother u are suggesting us to have an elephant when we have nothing to eat for our self....... j 11 gripen euro fighters all are good and we also need it but were the hell $$$ came from ?????? as for now jf 17 is the latest and best we can have an afford so why call it a junk and down morals of our nation ????????? Jf 17 is developing we all know and with world finest pilots we can do the job to defend our self ...... j 10 is in progress and suppose to have best chines can offer us now so why not wait for it and see what it is capable of ... it is one of the finest chines fighter and world still not fully know about its full capabilities so just wait and prey for our economical situation to get better then we will have the best that world can offer Insha Allah

Sir,

Stop burning your trains---stop burning railway stations---stop burning trucks and buses and stop burning your industry---you burnt everything to the ground---now you and others claim that there is no money for JF17 / J10 / J11's---obviuosly----but none of you are admitting to the fire bombs that you have thrown on your own infra structure----.

Untill and unless you don't admit to be your own worst enemies---you cannot change---. This nation needs to be insulted and degraded and humiliated so much that they really really feel ashamed and embarrassed of themselves---One of these days---this degradation will light a spark in one of you---which will light a fire---a fire that will start the cleansing process.

Settling for less is not the answer----it shows a lack of character and strength----. Right now the situation is to maintain the status quo---which means that everyday you go backwards----when you get a little push here a little shove there---.

Instead of 250 Jf17's---you would rather have 100 rafales or 100 eurofighters ---instead of 125 jf 17's---you would rather have 40-50 eurofighters or rafales----instead of 250 jf17's---you would rather have a 100 to 125 J11's---.

Your focus needs to be to have some sqdrn's that take the enemy one on one and come out ahead---you always prepare to fight from a position of strength----over here the PAF has totally changed that mentality to fighting from a position of weakness---. PAF is an organization that has been a massive failure in preparing an offencive strike capability for the nation in due time.

Bottomline again----your major weapons systems must bring you and your enemy closer to the peace table. Your enemy will not make peace if he sees that he will suffer massive amounts of damage in return.


You people keep arguing with me all the time---and I keep telling you people to read your history---read the history of successful leaders and campaigners---.

Why did Salah ud Din stop the attack on the crusader armies entrenched in the fort during his final victory and let the christians escape----only for the reason that he understood that he would suffer massive losses himself and his army would be weakened and will not be able to defend its position from other muslim Sultans and Emirs---.

Read----read---and read some more---open the parachute---catch some wind in it---it will take you to places---amazing places.
 
Sir,

Stop burning your trains---stop burning railway stations---stop burning trucks and buses and stop burning your industry---you burnt everything to the ground---now you and others claim that there is no money for JF17 / J10 / J11's---obviuosly----but none of you are admitting to the fire bombs that you have thrown on your own infra structure----.

Untill and unless you don't admit to be your own worst enemies---you cannot change---. This nation needs to be insulted and degraded and humiliated so much that they really really feel ashamed and embarrassed of themselves---One of these days---this degradation will light a spark in one of you---which will light a fire---a fire that will start the cleansing process.

Settling for less is not the answer----it shows a lack of character and strength----. Right now the situation is to maintain the status quo---which means that everyday you go backwards----when you get a little push here a little shove there---.

Instead of 250 Jf17's---you would rather have 100 rafales or 100 eurofighters ---instead of 125 jf 17's---you would rather have 40-50 eurofighters or rafales----instead of 250 jf17's---you would rather have a 100 to 125 J11's---.

Your focus needs to be to have some sqdrn's that take the enemy one on one and come out ahead---you always prepare to fight from a position of strength----over here the PAF has totally changed that mentality to fighting from a position of weakness---. PAF is an organization that has been a massive failure in preparing an offencive strike capability for the nation in due time.

Bottomline again----your major weapons systems must bring you and your enemy closer to the peace table. Your enemy will not make peace if he sees that he will suffer massive amounts of damage in return.


You people keep arguing with me all the time---and I keep telling you people to read your history---read the history of successful leaders and campaigners---.

Why did Salah ud Din stop the attack on the crusader armies entrenched in the fort during his final victory and let the christians escape----only for the reason that he understood that he would suffer massive losses himself and his army would be weakened and will not be able to defend its position from other muslim Sultans and Emirs---.

Read----read---and read some more---open the parachute---catch some wind in it---it will take you to places---amazing places.

Spot on Mr. Khan. But I don't believe they would admit. Their ego is far above then the best interest of nation. They would not admit that it is not the numbers game anymore. But we should keep on trying.
 
The point being missed here is that JF-17 wasnt all about cost..
it was about being able to get an aircrat free of embargoes....
Rafale/Gripen were prone to embargoes..same as any weatern aircraft.
and j-10 was started by china later than jf-17 and by then Pakstan had already invested in the project...
 
The point being missed here is that JF-17 wasnt all about cost..
it was about being able to get an aircrat free of embargoes....
Rafale/Gripen were prone to embargoes..same as any weatern aircraft.
and j-10 was started by china later than jf-17 and by then Pakstan had already invested in the project...

Safriz

No western weapons. I agree with you on that. But what I have read so far about JFT almost every read ends on cost effectiveness. Let their be no doubt that JFT is a great project but my point is we are expecting too much out of it. Either we have plans to make it as effective as those elephants (as per Hani above) which I have serious doubts or we have just given up against our enemies and decided to settle for less. Otherwise we are in a horrible situation as far as defending our nation and there is nothing wrong admitting it and finding a solution for the dire situation we are in.
 
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