JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[fjavaid]

sir pshamim




The Chinese have also transformed the very old J-6 in UAV Air-Sol

these Converted UCAVs will prove to be very efficient for training of pilots .....specially when PAF is about to master the art of BVR combat skills ...

 

[PakShaheen79]

Hi,

Technically it is a small, very well equipped multi-purpose fighter aircraft. It all depends upon the final electronics and bvr missile package that this aircraft will come out with.

You have to take the size of this aircraft into account as well as the armament that it will carry---and also look at what this aircraft was designed to replace---the A5's---they are already gone---the next in line are the Mirage 3 / 5 and then the F7PG's---.

You also have to understand that just by default----that is---the timing of its production date---this aircraft will automatically have whatever is the best in the chinese weapons system and electronics packages. I mean to say---if you are designing a new car in this competitive market---you will not put a carburator in it---you will have the most advanced fuel injection system in it.

You have to understand----it is not for pakistan's sake---it is for china's sake----all the eyes are on china---even though pakistan is the end user---it is china's name and number that is at stake---it is china's product---. China is not going to put forward anything at this time that will be ordinary----neither in the form of radar or in the form of WVR or BVR missiles---.

The thing is---to justify its status---you have to give it enough time to develop and mature----you have to give it time to season---this aircraft had a major set-back in the recent past---when the french electronics and weapons package was cancelled in the recent past.

If you want to rush to judgement of making it what it is not----you will be utterly disappointed when the final product is delivered.

It better to PROMISE LESS AND DELIVER MORE. My pakistani colleagues---you have made it a habbit of delivering less---.

Yar Mastan, Let's keep children out of this but i cannot remember when any PAF or even PDF mature member compared Thunder with something say MKI or Rafale. It is a known fact that it is mid-tier jet of PAF and not the hi-tier. Next year, in 2013, it will be 10 years when this thing went air borne and good 4 years after initial batch was rolled out in China. We have moved ahead though i agree that a lot to do.

Real issue is economy and absence of J-11, Typhoons like planes in PAF. F-16's are there but numbers are real issue... But... I think LEADERSHIP at national level is biggest security risk for Pakistan right now

 

[Manticore]

sir mastan , generally is critical when pak members boast of jf-17's capabilities , however he comes to the rescue of jft with very valid points when indian members are over critical / sceptical about jft's capabilities .. just my observation and I understand and respect his POV -- it is better to downplay the capability of a fighter in front of the general public than to show all your cards and neither should the capability be blown out of proportion

I reckon in the long run , the coproduction of jft is one of the best things that has happened for paf aswell as pakistans aviation industry -- whatever maybe the reason e.g failure to get more f16s or m2ks

We had to start from the ground up sooner or later anyway.. better at this time , than 10 years from now ,when IAF would be fielding 5th gen fighters

However jft cant fill the slot for a fighter with better range/payload/radar ... and hopefully would not have to--- there are 2 schools of thought here ... some want paf to get a western fighter [rafale etc] which would be instant morale boosters -- while others think that one sanction prone fighter is enough and the other frontlinr fighter should be of chinese origin .... however its tougher to get a good fighter when your hands are tied behind your back due to crippling economy

 

[MastanKhan]

Hardly... JF-17 is not the only Chinese fighter jet it can export.. Presently, all military industries of china top priority is to fulfil domestic order as PLA tri service is well funded. They have the abilities to go for what is best available for them unlike 10 years ago. Any export is a bonus but meeting the demand of PLA is the important target.

Hi,

Thank you---we don't have any issue with china fulfilling its own needs---they can export whatever they can, but the JF 17 is in the limelight as of now.

 

[MastanKhan]

Yar Mastan, Let's keep children out of this but i cannot remember when any PAF or even PDF mature member compared Thunder with something say MKI or Rafale. It is a known fact that it is mid-tier jet of PAF and not the hi-tier. Next year, in 2013, it will be 10 years when this thing went air borne and good 4 years after initial batch was rolled out in China. We have moved ahead though i agree that a lot to do.

Real issue is economy and absence of J-11, Typhoons like planes in PAF. F-16's are there but numbers are real issue... But... I think LEADERSHIP at national level is biggest security risk for Pakistan right now

Hi,

The comparison comes into force BY DEFAULT---it is just a function of need, observation and situational analysis. When your enemy wants to double the number of its air dominance fighter---twin engine twin tail---a mega behemoth in comparison to the jf17---it gets you spinning when you see your air force going for just the opposite.

Self reliance is fine---but you can't lose focus from the real enemy---. That is who you have to fight with---a CHICKEN HAWK cannot defeat the GOLDEN EAGLE.

The jf17 project is wonderful---as long as the paf had targetted an aircraft to take on the enemy's number one fighter air craft.

PAF has deceived the nation so many times that it has become a habbit----. You tell a lie three times and people will start saying it is the truth----paf has lied to the pakistani public so often that it has made them believe that less is better than more---the purchase of Rafale by the indians---is a stab thru the heart of paf air chief marshalls----and all of you members who were bumbling that as Rafale has not sold a single order---it is somehow become worthless---remember that time.

Pakistanis---" you don't have to put your head into the bull's ar-se to see if the steak is good----you take the butcher's word for it"---.

Now if paf had procured 2 sqdrn's of aircraft capable to take on the su30---it would all have been good---paf does not have a SPEARHEAD at this time---they have aircraft that can fill in the flanks---but nothing to carry the main thrust of the attack.

When paf has to buy something---it has to understand----don't buy what you seem to be fit----buy something that worries and concerns india----. India is a different kind of enemy---their main product are bigger and right in your face kind of items---SU30---their new tank---aircraft carrier---.

I agree with your last para.

sir mastan , generally is critical when pak members boast of jf-17's capabilities , however he comes to the rescue of jft with very valid points when indian members are over critical / sceptical about jft's capabilities .. just my observation and I understand and respect his POV -- it is better to downplay the capability of a fighter in front of the general public than to show all your cards and neither should the capability be blown out of proportion

I reckon in the long run , the coproduction of jft is one of the best things that has happened for paf aswell as pakistans aviation industry -- whatever maybe the reason e.g failure to get more f16s or m2ks

We had to start from the ground up sooner or later anyway.. better at this time , than 10 years from now ,when IAF would be fielding 5th gen fighters

However jft cant fill the slot for a fighter with better range/payload/radar ... and hopefully would not have to--- there are 2 schools of thought here ... some want paf to get a western fighter [rafale etc] which would be instant morale boosters -- while others think that one sanction prone fighter is enough .... however its tougher to get a good fighter when your hands are tied behind your back due to crippling economy

Hi,

Well---on its own merits---you cannot fault this airplane---it is a wonderful multi role aircraft---. Just to bash it without reason---is rather stupid and ignorant---. This is indeed what the paf needed to replace the 300 odd A5's, mirage 3/5's F7pg's but not to face the might of the indian frontline aircraft.

 

[Storm Force]

Master Khan,

Its a welcome change to hear a PDF member talk with critical analysis and complete honesty. ABOUT both the PAF and their opponents.

You openly highlight glaring weaknesses and failings in a subtle and polite manner and do not offend the PDF massess who probably wont like what you dare suggest.

Thanks for your work

 

[ziaulislam]

well if you look at PAF in single vs single aircrft capability to india. PAF has never had an aircrft other than a brief mommnet in 80s that was equal or superior to IAF.
but infact it operated a generation behind aircrfts ...
atleast JF-17 is in same generation, meaning that in it wouldnt fall like flies or bbe easily fried as mastan indicates usually..

you cant assume that aircrft with less payload or weaker ECM/radar will simply get fried within seconds facing an enemy. JF-17 has an excellent BVR capablity for its size and i believe will give a decent challenge to the opposition. (well for guys who would start its not BVR assume i am talking about future blocks)

only reason why we underate thunder as comparable to other similar aircfts like gripen , is that we assume chinese avionics are not as good enough but actually wwe beleieve are not even close enopugh to western avionics...
i thought the trend will change with china no longer buying from Russians and fact that they are going for fifth generation projects but it doesnt seem so.....

 

[Beast]

only reason why we underate thunder as comparable to other similar aircfts like gripen , is that we assume chinese avionics are not as good enough but actually wwe beleieve are not even close enopugh to western avionics...
i thought the trend will change with china no longer buying from Russians and fact that they are going for fifth generation projects but it doesnt seem so.....

Where did u get that idea? Indian members feed u with too much corrupted info?

Even yr air marshal gives it thumb up for the radar. This is the thing that surprises him most. It was even as good if not better than what Thales offer to Pakistan for the JF-17. I hope u better don't utter rubbish and humiliate yrself in front of others.

Remember his reputation is at stake when he says those word. Some may believe he just boast abt. But this is suppose to be an export aircraft. You can't hide or lie too much since test pilot of the interested countries will fly this aircraft and if yr claim can't be back up. Don't call yrself chief of air force!

Who are u to judge his word? Chief air force of USAF?

 

[Beast]

I think since we have seen so many Pakistanis forumer unaware of the advancement of china military especially the electronic sector. Let me give u a little education and hint of the current state of china electronic advancement.

International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Report from the 2010 Chinese Defense Electronics Exhibition (CIDEX): Growing Industry – Advancing Technology

2) Chinese Defence Products Today: State-of-the Art

Chinese defence products were once thought of as being moderately capable copies of previous-generation hardware that contained attributes of Russian, European and Israeli designs.* Some of those bloodlines can still be seen in their designs, but the products now being seen at an expo like CIDEX show that Chinese firms have capabilities that approach first world industrial, state-of-the-art levels of sophistication.

In the 1990s, when the Russian defence was in danger of drying up and closing its doors due to an almost complete collapse in any funding from their own government, it was China that saved the day. China bought billions in military hardware from Russia, but it also sent its engineers, designers and technicians to study inside of Russian industry to learn how the weapons it was purchasing had been developed in the first place.

This transfer of technological know-how, plus some enormous investments by the Chinese military into its state-owned industries (what more than one Russian has referred to as “uncontrolled and rampant modernisation&#8221 has produced a defence electronics industry that far outstrips the size and capacity of that which existed in Russia when Chinese industry first began their cooperation with Moscow in the early 1990s.

Today the former students (the Chinese) have become the masters.* Chinese industry now has the ability to produce components that the Russian electronics industry (after almost two decades of no investment by their government) is no longer capable of either designing or manufacturing.* The initial failure rates on the production of transmit/receive (T/R) modules for the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars being designed for the Mikoyan MiG-35 and the Sukhoi T-50/PAK-FA 5th-generation fighter, for example, were so high that it would have bankrupted any western firm involved in a similar programme.

Not surprisingly, this year’s CIDEX show saw groups of Russian specialists going through the halls and looking for components that they could source out of China to be utilised in Russian-designed weapon systems.* Russian specialists will point out that they are now at a huge disadvantage to the Chinese in two very significant respects.

One is that the commitment by the central government in resources to the defence electronics sector is both sustained and serious.* “They can take a field where there is nothing but flat land and wild grass,” said one Russian company representative, “and the next thing you know there is a full-blown factory or design centre there turning out a world-class product.”

The other advantage to China is the unfortunate reality of actuarial tables.* Younger scientists and engineers who are needed in Russia to form the next-generation of weapons designers are leaving the nation in droves.* A few years ago the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR) estimated that 70,000 scientists and specialists from Russian defence institutes and military-industrial complex enterprises had left the country.

A documentary on the subject produced by Moscow’s NTV stated “the nuclear physicists, experts in electronic equipment, virologists and biotechnologists did not leave Russia empty-handed.* They took secrets with them and presented their former foes with the weapons they had themselves developed.”

The documentary went on to claim “according to CIA data, in the first half of the 1990s thousands of Soviet specialists in the field of nuclear and missile technology left for the Middle East.* They worked there in violation of the treaty on non-proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and the MTCR.* From the Arzamas-16 centre several people went to work in Iraq.* Russian scientists worked in Iran and Libya.* Forty nuclear scientists immigrated to Israel.* Thousands of Russian specialists in the field of nuclear and missile technologies developed programmes to improve armaments in China.* Our scientists are willing to work anywhere they are paid.”

The consequence is that whereas the age of the average defence industrial scientist or engineer in China is about 30 and around 40 in the US – it is 50 years or more in Russia.* China’s industry is growing and advancing, while Russia’s will effectively be dying off before too long.

I am fully confident what china deliver for JF-17 is an advance and competitive radar. Remember KJ-7 radar on JF-17 is an downgrade . Smaller version of J-10 KJ-10. You can imagine we have far more powerful one not unveil yet. Not to mention even more powerful AESA under testing and ready to be operational.. Russia can next time buy from china for its own radar.

Far too many former always read those 2003 and 2005 report of assessment of china military which contain outdated news. This 2010 report is quite fresh and new . Not too mention after. 2 years had passed and far more exciting technology has come.

 

[Edevelop]

A lot of people have questioned whether JF-17 is capable to take Ra'ad. Though it has been confirmed that it can, some have again been bothered to question something as far as size.

Let me show you that in this pic you see JF-17 carrying LS-6 (Chinese Percision Guided Bomb)

Now compare that to more or less same size of Ra'ad (Pakistani Cruise Missile)

 

[air marshal]

FC-1/JF-17 Thunder Dragon/Thunder

Revealed in 1995 as the successor of the cancelled Sino-US Super-7 project, FC-1 (Fighter China-1, max TO weight 12,700kg, max speed M 1.8, service ceiling 16,920m, max weapon load 3,900kg, ferry range 3,480km, combat radius 1,352km, max g load +8.5) is being developed by CAC/611 Institute (with some technical assistance from Russian Mikoyan OKB) as a "medium tech", light weight fighter/ground attack aircraft carrying a relatively cheap price tag (~$20m). As a fighter designed for export, its main customer is expected to be Pakistan who also shares 50% of the total cost (around $150m). It may also compete with second-hand F-16s to seize the market created by the retirement of Mig-21s, Mirage III and F-5s. Currently powered by a Russian RD-93 turbofan (upgraded RD-33, rated 8,795kg with a/b), it may also be powered by a locally produced WS-13 Taishan if it ever enters the service with PLAAF. The A-6 style "V" shaped air-intakes are believed to provide smooth air flow to the engine at high AoA. The fire control radar is thought to be a Chinese KLJ-7 X-band multi-functional PD radar in the initial batches of 8, then subsequently switched to KLJ-10 with a better performance (track 10 engage 2, look-up range 75km, look-down range 45km for RCS=3m2). A European high performance radar (e.g. Italian Vixen 1000ES AESA) has been planned in later batches. Other electronics include an NVG compatible glass cockpit with 3 8"x6" color MFDs, HOTAS, AIFF, 1553B databus and INS/GPS. Weapon load includes both short (PL-5E/PL-9C/AIM-9M) and medium-range AAMs (SD-10A). LGBs (LT-2/LT-3/GBU-16), GPS/INS guided bombs (LS-6), anti-radiation missiles (Brazilian MAR-1) and laser designating pod (WMD-7) can also be carried for ground attack missions, up to 2 C-802A AShMs for anti-ship missions. For self-protection purpose a KG300G ECM pod can be carried. The development schedule of FC-1 was repeatedly delayed caused by various problems, such as lack of funding, the reluctance of western countries to supply advanced avionics, as well as the revised specifications set by PAF to counter the threat from India's LCAs. These specifications included a true BVR attack capability with active radar guided medium-range AAMs (SD-10). However, FC-1's prospect in the domestic market was not very promising, as PLAAF had largely committed to the more advanced J-10 as its new generation fighter along with J-11 and was reluctant to take a large number of FC-1s due to its less advanced design and a Russian engine. After lengthy negotiations, Pakistani government finally signed the contract with CATIC and CAC/611 in 1999 and gave the "go ahead" order to the much delayed project. The development was further accelerated after PAF recommitted the project and confirmed FC-1's technical specifications in detail in February 2001. A full-scale mock-up was quickly constructed. A total of 6 prototypes (01-06) would have been built at CAC. The 01 prototype rolled down the assembly line on May 31, 2003 with two small wing fences. Its maiden flight took place on August 25, 2003. The 03 prototype first flew on April 9, 2004 without the two small wing fences. The 04 prototype was expected to fly by the end of 2005 with full suite of avionics but this was delayed until April 2006 due to several structural modifications. They include new diverterless supersonic inlets (DSI/Bump) similar to those of American F-35 to reduce weight and achieve better performance. A large rectangular-shaped fairing is installed on top of the vertical tailfin which may house ECM equipment. Its flight control includes a Type 634 quadruplex digital FBW in pitch axis and a duplex analog FBW in roll axis. A UV band MAWS has been installed at the root of the vertical tailfin to provide rear hemisphere coverage. Two enlarged F/A-18 style LERX are thought to offer higher AOA as well. The first flight of 04 prototype took place on April 28, 2006, and 06 prototype on September 10, 2006. The first two preproduction JF-17s (Joint Fighter-17, 00 batch/07-101 & 102) were delivered to Pakistan on March 2, 2007, with the nose-tip pitot tube removed. The 01 batch of 6 JF-17s (08-103 -- 08-108) were delivered between March and April 2008. The contract for PAF to acquire 42 JF-17s (mostly assembled by PAC) was singed on March 7, 2009. The first two (09-109 & 110) have been built by CAC. The first JF-17 (09-111) in the batch of 4 assembled by PAC rolled out on November 23, 2009. It was reported in May 2011 that PAF plans to acquire another 50 JF-17s on an "expedited" basis and the negotiation is still ongoing. Besides Pakistan, several Asian and African countries also expressed interest in FC-1, including Egypt, Bangladesh, Iran, Sri Lanka and Azerbaijan. In October 2008 it was rumored that PLAAF might acquire some FC-1s as a low-cost light fighter/attack aircraft to replace its obsolete J-7s and Q-5s but this has not been confirmed. FC-1 passed design appraisal in December 2009. The first taxi test of FC-1 powered by an indigenous WS-13 took place on March 18, 2010. A further improved version (JF-17A/JF-17 Block 2?) featuring an AESA radar, IRST and IFR probe as well as a two-seat trainer version (JF-17B?) are thought to has been proposed and likely be under development as well.

- Last Updated 2/25/12

 

[nomi007]

why Karachi museum don't have any jf-17 thunder prototype.
Pakistan-china made 6 prototypes in past

 

[sancho]

A lot of people have questioned whether JF-17 is capable to take Ra'ad...

...Now compare that to more or less same size of Ra'ad (Pakistani Cruise Missile)

LS-6 is a bomb kit for in this case 500Kg bombs, while Ra'ad is a cruise missile with 1100Kg weight. Both have very different lenght and diameter as well, while the only commonality might be that they have retractable wings, so the one has nothing to do with the other.
If Tempest is right with his calculations and the diameter of Ra'ad will not be a problem, it fits to the centerline hardpoint, similar to the config we saw on the Mirage fighters. Adding them to the wingstations instead, seems to be not possible so far, because only payloads below 1000Kg might be cleared yet. With further structural improvements, additional fuel and payload a twin carriage might be possible in later batches.

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

why Karachi museum don't have any jf-17 thunder prototype.
Pakistan-china made 6 prototypes in past

Non of its prototypes are in MUSEUM either in China or Pakistan.
But Chinese museum only houses a few JF-17 MOCK-UPs.

 

[Last Hope]

why Karachi museum don't have any jf-17 thunder prototype.
Pakistan-china made 6 prototypes in past

Those prototypes are in China and under tests.
Plus, there is no time/resources to concentrate to produce on units/mocks for museums rather than the produce for Air Forces.

Just a honest question, do you want some JF-17s in Karachi museum for attraction or JF-17s serving ADA?