JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[Dazzler]

You are comparing an aircraft that dosent have a tactics with an aircraft in use for 3 decades...you are the kid...drink out of ur bottle and head to bed..You need serious counselling there. You are arguing about the M2K C series which has been upgraded to the -9 series. And the French have closed the production lines of the whole Mirage series. You generalized it in the start, then you bring in IAF M2K which are going to be upgraded, and now you are telling me. Contradictory statements.

So we started with capability comparison between Mir 2000 (non 2000-5 variants) and ended up on tactics and in your opinion this makes JFT inferior to INDIAN mirage 2000??? I cant believe you kiddo. Again, read what i wrote, NON 2000-5 variant not the upgraded one which has still not happened. When it does then we will see.

Cheers

 

[hataf]

Here is you Mirage 2000 specs......

Cockpit

The fighter is available as a single-seat or two-seat multi-role fighter. The aircraft has hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) control. The pilot sits on a SEMB Mark 10 zero-zero ejection seat, a license-built version of the British Martin-Baker Mark 10. Contrary to the F-16, the pilot sits in a conventional position, without the heavy slope that the F-16 seat has. The cockpit is quite small, and there is no bubble canopy. Despite this, the cockpit visibility is quite good, but less than the F-16, especially at 'six O' clock' (rear) position.

The instrument panel(in Mirage 2000 C) is dominated by a Heads Up Display (HUD) with the VMC 180 radar screen located centrally below it. To the lower left is a stores management panel. Above the stores management panel are the navigation instruments and altimeter. The right half of the instrument panel houses the engine and systems displays. Located on the left side of the cockpit, just ahead of the throttle, are controls for the communications equipment, including the Have Quick secure radio.

Avionics

Standard avionics for the Mirage-2000B/C include:

Sagem ULISS 52 inertial navigation system (INS), TRT radio altimeter.

Sextant TMV-980 data display system (VE-130 head-up and VMC-180 head-down) (two head-down in 2000N/D). The combined head-up/head-level display is collimated at infinity, and presents data relating to flight control, navigation, target engagement and weapon firing. Sensor and system management data is presented on two colored lateral displays.

Dassault Electronique Type 2084 central digital computer, Digibus digital databus (2084 XR in 2000D) and Sextant Avionique Type 90 air data computer.

LMT NRAI-7A IFF transponder, IO-300-A marker beacon receiver, TRT ERA 7000 V/UHF com transceiver, TRT ERA 7200 UHF or EAS secure voice communications.

Radar

Thomson-CSF RDM multi-mode radar or Dassault Electronique/Thomson-CSF RDI pulse-Doppler radar for the Mirage 2000C/D, each with an operating range of 54 nm (100 km / 62 miles). This unit was an evolution of Cyrano radars, with more modern processing units and look-down/shoot-down capabilities. The effective range is around 60-70 km with modest capabilities against low-level targets. It is linked with Super R.530F missiles, and equipped the first 37 aircraft delivered to the French Air Force (Armeé de l'Air) and most exported Mirages. It has multirole capabilities that enable its use in air-to-surface tasks, including anti-ship roles. The very early RDM were still not linked with the Super R.530F missiles, but it was solved quickly.

RDI interception radar. A specialized radar for air-to-air tasks delivered mainly with the Mirage 2000C for the Armée de l'Air. It has a much improved range of about 150 km, and is linked to Super R.530D missiles; much improved compared to the "F". Look-down/shoot-down capabilities are much improved as well, but this radar is not usually used for air-to-surface roles.

Dassault/Thales Antelope 5 Radar with terrain avoidance capability for Mirage 2000N Nuclear Strike variant.

The Thales multimode RDY (Radar Doppler Multitarget) developed for the Mirage 2000-5. Third generation radar, with multiple target capabilities (comparable to the AWG-9) and MICA missiles. This radar equipped many of the most recently exported M.2000s, as-well as the first Mirage 2000RDM updated to 2000-5 standard.

Countermeasures

Thales Serval Radar warning receiver (RWR) with antennas on the wingtips and on the rear of the top of the tailfin.

Dassault Sabre RF jammer in a pod below the bottom of the tailfin, with an antenna in a fairing on the front of the tailfin.

Dassault Eclair dispenser system under the tail. This was eventually replaced by a pair of Matra Spirale dispensers, one fitted on an extension behind the rear of each wingroot, giving a total capacity of 224 cartridges.

MIRAGE 2000

JFT blk 1 specs.....



The avionics suite will make the JF-17 as an effective weapon platform. The glass cockpit and hands on throttle and stick (HOTAS) controls will reduce pilot workload. Accurate navigation and weapon aiming information on the head up display will help the pilot achieve his mission effectively. The multifunction displays will provide information on engine, fuel, hydraulics, electrical, flight control and environmental control system on a need-to-know basis along with basic flight and tactical information. The capability would be built around highly modern state-of-the-art avionics equipment, which is as follows:

* Dual redundant two mission computers
* Dual redundant 1553 Mux bus architecture
* Multimode Pulse Doppler Radar with high power air-cooled transmitter and capable of tracking multiple targets with prioritized firing
* Ring laser gyro inertial navigation system tied with GPS
* Smart head up display with up front control panel. HUD minimum total Field of View is 25 degrees
* Color video recording camera and video recorder (for SMFCDs)
* Data Transfer Unit with digital map function
* HOTAS
* Three smart multi function color displays
* Air Data Computer
* R/Altimeter
* IFF Interrogator/Transponder
* ACMI
* Standard Armament Interface Unit
* Remote Interface Box
* BVR Datalink
* V / UHF Communication System (Qty 02)
* Comm Datalink
* All associated antennas
* Warnings Computer
* ILS
* TACAN
* RWR
* MAWS
* CFD
* Other essential equipment like
o Day/ night laser designator pod
o Self Protection Jammer
o IRST
o FLIR
o NVGs
o Helmet Mounted Sight/Display

Weapons Capability

1. The aircraft would be fitted with modern Stores Management System incorporating accurate weapons delivery modes and solutions involving minimum pilot work load
2.
The system would be based on Mil-Std-1760 architecture for all stations including the wingtip stations
3. The aircraft would be capable of carrying some of the most modern as well as conventional weapons, including:

1.
70-100 Km range beyond visual range active missiles
2.
Highly agile Imaging infra red short range missiles
3.
Air to sea missiles
4.
Anti radiation missiles
5.
Laser guided weapons
6.
Programmable delays cluster bombs
7.
Runway penetration bombs
8.
General purpose bombs
9.
Training bombs
10.
23 mm double barrel gun


Open your eyes boy...

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex....

i don't care where JF-17 Lies in competition but these thing in red makes me

 

[satishkumarcsc]

So we started with capability comparison between Mir 2000 (non 2000-5 variants) and ended up on tactics and in your opinion this makes JFT inferior to INDIAN mirage 2000??? I cant believe you kiddo. Again, read what i wrote, NON 2000-5 variant not the upgraded one which has still not happened. When it does then we will see.

Cheers

You were generalising stuff. And you were the one who started the comparison. French being afraid that JFT will defeat the Mirage 2000 is rather ridiculous. And you were the one who started. By the time the JFT is fully operational the Mirages would have been upgraded. And you must remember (which is rather difficult for you) that Mirage 2000 is going to be upgraded.

http://www.flightglobal.com/article...dia-set-to-sign-mirage-2000-upgrade-deal.html

 

[Dazzler]

First sqdrn is inducted and second by the end of year, what more proof do you want for its operational status in PAF, boy? You are being more and more kid, kiddo. I never said IAF mir 2000s will not be upgraded, rather when they will be upgraded, we will see. One more thing for you, the induction date of first 50 is 2011 at best and after this..................the blk 2 a.k.a JFT NG (as PAF calls it) will be here. Exciting times are ahead

 

[satishkumarcsc]

First sqdrn is inducted and second by the end of year, what more proof do you want for its induction boy? You are being more and more kid, kiddo. I never said IAF mir 2000s will not be upgraded, rather when they will be upgraded, we will see. One more thing for you, the induction date of first 50 is 2011 at best and after this..................the blk 2 a.k.a JFT NG (as PAF calls it) will be here. Exciting times are ahead

It is still in small batch production and it has just started baby..it is still nearly 2 full years away after all the tactics are evolved and are a totally operational. And first of all the aircraft is sent to the most experienced pilots to develop all the tactics and integrate it to the doctrine. So I think the Mirage 2000 will be ahead of your JF17 BLK1. Well lets say the Mirage 2000 is a good aircraft thats proven and JFT is yet to be proven. And comparing aircrafts which is yet to enter series production and the one whose production lines are closed is ridiculous. And the French didnt want to give their tech because they were never afraid of the JF taking on the Mirage...they were ready to even fund you people but Thales and the other companies wanted hard cash to continue their researches so the French government is in a fix right now. Just got this info.....the deal might go through after all...

 

[Dazzler]

Small production aircraft do not take part in a full fledge military exercise like Azm-e-Nau..... Anything else you wan to know??

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Small production aircraft do not take part in a full fledge military exercise like Azm-e-Nau..... Anything else you wan to know??

it is SBP...And who told you SBP dont take part in exercises? And it is useless conversing with you as you dont know jack about any aircraft. And how they operate.

 

[Dazzler]

You love to live in the denial sack dont you. Carry on kiddo.....

Cheers !

 

[Koga Ryu]

Imageshack - photo00461.jpg - Uploaded by mj26459

 

[MastanKhan]

It is still in small batch production and it has just started .it is still nearly 2 full years away after all the tactics are evolved and are a totally operational.

And first of all the aircraft is sent to the most experienced pilots to develop all the tactics and integrate it to the doctrine.

And comparing aircrafts which is yet to enter series production and the one whose production lines are closed is ridiculous.

Hi,

Thanks for bringing out this issue again---indeed that is how the system works---.

The true colors of the jf 17 would start emerging out in about two years time period---.

The most important results would be coming out of the 2nd and 3rd sqdrn's that are stationed away from kamra---who have second and third batch technicians to maintain them and second and third line of pilots to fly them.

Untill and unless the aircraft has not operated in the field without any restrictions and ever watchful eyes of the first batch of techs and engrs----till then it is not fully operational.

The jf 17 is not certified yet----it is about two years away from that---even the pilots---it will take them a good two years plus to reach a high efficiency status in skills and operation.

This plane has a few years to go before it show its true colors---. To ask anything sooner is not being fair to the program---not being fair to the manufacturer and not being fair to yourself.

Seems like two years is the magic number---

 

[graphican]

It is still in small batch production and it has just started baby..it is still nearly 2 full years away after all the tactics are evolved and are a totally operational. And first of all the aircraft is sent to the most experienced pilots to develop all the tactics and integrate it to the doctrine. So I think the Mirage 2000 will be ahead of your JF17 BLK1. Well lets say the Mirage 2000 is a good aircraft thats proven and JFT is yet to be proven. And comparing aircrafts which is yet to enter series production and the one whose production lines are closed is ridiculous. And the French didnt want to give their tech because they were never afraid of the JF taking on the Mirage...they were ready to even fund you people but Thales and the other companies wanted hard cash to continue their researches so the French government is in a fix right now. Just got this info.....the deal might go through after all...

I think you are over-looking the fact that New aircraft doesn't mean a new "plant". Whats the point in bragging about production line being closed for Mirage? Production Line closing means the aircraft has reached its maximum and cannot be extended further and at that time, JFT is starting to gain grounds. Knowledge is built upon what you already know. We operate Mirage and we know how to build upon that further. We also operate F-16s and we also know how to build upon them further. Even you look at your own argument, you are talking in the favor of JFT.

 

[Quwa]

You were generalising stuff. And you were the one who started the comparison. French being afraid that JFT will defeat the Mirage 2000 is rather ridiculous. And you were the one who started. By the time the JFT is fully operational the Mirages would have been upgraded. And you must remember (which is rather difficult for you) that Mirage 2000 is going to be upgraded.

India set to sign Mirage 2000 upgrade deal

What do you mean by "JFT is fully operational..."? It already has under No. 26 "Black Spiders", in fact the 2 units that went to FIA were from that squadron. The JF-17 also participated in High Mark 2010 as well as reported to have taken part in the Waziristan operations.

No doubt that JF-17 doesn't have the range or payload of the Mirage 2000 and F-16, and the contemporary radars of the latter boast better range and engagement. But that doesn't mean that JF-17 is 'no contest' for them. The RDY-2 can engage 4 targets simultaneously and KLJ-7 can take 2. I think that is a legitimate threat to the Mirage 2000 as much as M2K is to JF-17 in this scenario. As for ECM/EW, I don't think PAF is using systems from the 1970s on JF-17...to be fair, lets say the suites are contemporary enough to be a contest for most fighters out there.

As for the upgraded Mirage 2000 in IAF...good work...what about the PAF's JF-17 Block-II and IIIs? The Thunder isn't going to remain static, subsequent blocs (to be produced in 2 or 3 years from now) will have capabilities such as HMD/S & 5th-gen WVRAAM, AESA radar, better avionics and better ECM/EW, etc.

 

[Dazzler]

What do you mean by "JFT is fully operational..."? It already has under No. 26 "Black Spiders", in fact the 2 units that went to FIA were from that squadron. The JF-17 also participated in High Mark 2010 as well as reported to have taken part in the Waziristan operations.

No doubt that JF-17 doesn't have the range or payload of the Mirage 2000 and F-16, and the contemporary radars of the latter boast better range and engagement. But that doesn't mean that JF-17 is 'no contest' for them. The RDY-2 can engage 4 targets simultaneously and KLJ-7 can take 2. I think that is a legitimate threat to the Mirage 2000 as much as M2K is to JF-17 in this scenario. As for ECM/EW, I don't think PAF is using systems from the 1970s on JF-17...to be fair, lets say the suites are contemporary enough to be a contest for most fighters out there.

As for the upgraded Mirage 2000 in IAF...good work...what about the PAF's JF-17 Block-II and IIIs? The Thunder isn't going to remain static, subsequent blocs (to be produced in 2 or 3 years from now) will have capabilities such as HMD/S & 5th-gen WVRAAM, AESA radar, better avionics and better ECM/EW, etc.

Do not worry faisal as its been a long day for him

All i said was in terms of general capability, the early variant i.e. Mirage 2000 pre 2000-5 standard is not an adequate match for JFT and gave ample proof to accompany this claim but it was too much for him to swallow and he brought TACTICS and what not.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Any chance of JFT gettin a TVC or JHMS in future?

 

[Dazzler]

Well i wish you are telling truth because Grippen ND is competing F16 block70, Mig 35,F18 Super Hornet, EU2000, and Rafale so it must be atleast their par..if Block 2 of JF17 will be competitive to Grippen NG it means competetive to all of these platform so can you plz elaborate in wat way its compatitive. is it in form of cost or in form of tech.

Brother, so far there is no such thing as f-16 Blk 70 and what LM showed to Indians was nothing more than a GLORIFIED blk 60 with almost same specifications except a few tweaks here and there. IF India decides to go for it, only then it will become a reality. It was just a presentation gimmick.