JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[Mani2020]

According to AFM articles (#2643), it says

"In early April, it was reported that the French Government would not supply the Thales avionics to the PAF for the JF-17; however the Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, told AFM in mid-April that the French procurement agency, the Direction General I Armement (DGA), had assured him that the delivery would go ahead."

go ahead?? can someone clarify this?

He means that the deal is not dead as speculated by different articles i.e deal will further progress ,there will be further negotiations regarding the deal, And french is ready to provide the equipment

 

[VelocuR]

^last time, it was canceled/hold due to Indian pressures and also another reasons to steal French's technology from China.

French surely will go ahead!

 

[deckingraj]

Hi Mani...I have been following this thread from quite some time....I know this is a Pakistani specific thread and Indians should not poke their nose...Moreove this post was directed to MK...However i could not resist and wanted to share my thoughts so please take the post on merit and ignore the nationality....

Mastan KhanIn some posts you are saying that Pakistan have missed a chance for asking/ demanding more from US after WOT due to some kinda poor strategy and they should have gained more than what they had....Now on the other hand you are saying that US weapons are like sitting ducks against india as Pak couldn't use them i case of war and you are giving the reference of "MR.blake" statement...your own statements contradict with each other coz on one hand you are criticizing Paf procurement of US stuff and at other hand you are emphasizing that Pakistan should have gained more after WOT so when you dont like paf procurement of US stuff than what kind of gains are u talking about?

Sorry but i do not see these two claims by MK as contradictory....I know we are adversaries however if i put myself in a Pakistani shoe i believe you deserve all those toys without any strings attached.... Pakistan was fairly peaceful before she joined WOT and starting 2003 millitancy has taken more lives in Pak then anywhere else...In fact you have lost more troops then US in this war....Even after so much contribution whatever you get is for the fight on terror only(atleast on papers strings are attached)....Now i do not dwell on to why it happened(Pak policies of Past etc) as it will derail the argument and is not necessary...

Bottom line is that even though you have lost more men then Nato(who actually started the conflict) yet you are getting Aid only for the war on terror...You are not getting weapons(atleast on paper) to maintain parity with arch rival India....

So basically Pak administration failed to extract more out of US then they could have...Don't you think so???

I believe somewhere India has played its cards and US-India bonhomie is going to have negative impact on your defence and otherwise....Look Geo-Politics have changed significantly and India-US relations are improving...India is a strong economy and is going to be one for considerable time...Moreover only other competitor to China who is turn is considered as only other competitor to US...So you see India is important in US eyes for a longer term....

If you look around we have strong economy ...some indigenous capacity(is improving considerably) and all the possible Arms Supplier(Russia, Israel, US, EU) lining up to see us state of art weapons....we are the world largest importer of weapons and going to be for significant time before we can replace Exports with Indigenous capability....On the other hand Pak economy is not doing good....very little indigenous capacity and limited offers from world leaders when it comes to arms... Apart from China there is nothing much which do not have strings attached....

Now if we just compare our Air-Forces then look at the inductions that are being planned for both of them....We already have 100+ MKI's when you are still locking deals for JF17 Avionics....Tejas, MRCA and FGFA are our future inductions and work is going on....Doesn't that speak volumes about the situation that PAF has to deal with????

I think what you are facing is what India was facing when China was growing at a rapid pace and we were on the verge of bankruptcy in 1990's.....Such was the state of disparity that we did not bother to improve infrastructure on our side because we feared that it will help China more than us!!!!!...and now the infrastructure development is going full swing...That speak volumes about today's India...and if you see we have fairly peaceful borders with China...And now with strong economy backed by new importance in geo-politics we are playing catching game with them...Not only that our engagement with China is more than $60 billions which makes a conflict double edge sword for both.....I think what you guys need is plenty of time to recover from your shabby economy, play geo-politics well and definitely have peace with India....

Do you wanted PAF to get F-18 or f-15 at best ? So arnt these machines prone to same embargoes that are attached with f-16's
Now coming to your second point of Paf relying on Chinese stuff which is not as good as US then tell me where should we go? you are not happy with US tech , you are not happy with chinese one (who by the way are more reliable than anyone in the world ) so tell me where should PAF go and you are your self excepting that either no other country will provide it or either we are not able to afford
Third point regarding saab-2000 ....here you are praising musharaf for signing a deal with China when you already have kinda degraded chinese stuff (sorry if my words seems to b bit harsh or rash)
As far as your point regarding PAF and some of the corruption is concerned i totaly agree you at that but....

I honestly have no answer to it.....Experts would know better..However i can give one example from India's diplomacy....We did not recognize Israel till 90's with the fear of backlash from Middle East...Then we realized our mistake and today they are one of our top arms supplier(state of art)....We did this even after having almost same(if not more) Muslim population that you have and today not only we are friends with Middle East but with Israel as well......Now how/what you wanna do only you guys will decide however you got to change with the world....

India's official position is that she being friends to both can help solve the issue....See the beauty of diplomacy here..Both Israel and Palestine consider us as their good friends....

Regarding the question about Pakistan and India friendship for the purpose of peace... it is next to impossible coz its the clash of ideologies and the clash of identities and where people indulge in factor lyk these there is no way out.....Let me tell u a thing India want to go in UN for permanent member and Pakistan is the biggest opposer of this ...Lets suppose for an instance we become friends ...then do you think Pakistan will not oppose after friendship and peace? the answer is a big NO? this is because the distrust we have ....For us who knows they will backbite us after getting their purpose fullfilled... Thats the history of distrust and blunders we have sir ....And this is only a single example there are lot of others existing

There you go wrong....Look at India-China equation....We got a beating from them in 62...We have distrust and we know that we are only two competitors in Asia yet we have good relations...$60 billion worth of trade is helping our masses....As far as UN seat is concerned then US-China both have reservations to it yet our relations are good(improving) with them....If you see closely it is not clash of ideologies..It can't be because we are same people....It is only animosity and hatred which is getting better of us...Anyways even if not for goodwill i believe it is in Pakistan's best interests to have good relations with India....

India is fine with status quo in Kashmir...Tri-Flag is still on Siachen and your lifeline(water) comes from Indian land...Please don't take these as flame baits....What i am trying to say is as long as there is no militancy in Kashmir India won't care if the dispute is resolved or not...However not the same with Pakistan...You have tried to solve it militarily but failed(X-Y-Z reasons i don't care)...If i understand geo-politics correctly then disparity between India and Pak was less in those wars then what it is today...So Armed conflict won't help you either...

In short having good relations with India is the need of the hour for Pakistan...not vice-versa....Good relations with India will buy you much needed time to improve your economy...once your economy is sound you will see people willing to sell you what you need and you would be able to fund your indigenous programs as well.....Better relations with India will take your markets a new high and you will reach a point of no-return for a significant time....

 

[BATMAN]

We already have 100+ MKI's when you are still locking deals for JF17 Avionics....Tejas, MRCA and FGFA are our future inductions and work is going on....Doesn't that speak volumes about the situation that PAF has to deal with????

In begining of your sentence you talk about of having 100SU and discard JF-17 because it is in process of buying avionics.
Immediately you start usual Teja, PAK-FA etc.
As the say.... either write in past or present or future but don't mixup and that too clearly to your advantage!!!! how unfair?
You'r 100 SU are not airworthy....
JF-17 can't be flying and fighting wars taking part in excercises and testing without avionics.
Editor of AFM have never witnesed quality targeting as displayed by Thunder... next generation Avionics package negotiations are underway for blk 2... just for variation and improvement in specs...
FYI.. we are also working on improved engine... that what shall this mean we should stop flying?
Teja is a failed project and need modifications in airframe...incl. wing design.... you are relatively new to forums but LCA designers have all over Pakistani defence forums... incl. this one... to learn about wing designs and air intakes.
PAK-FA is a bird which is under development in Russia and we are anxiously waiting for their arrival but mentioning them while thunder is participating in wars, praised and touted as potent fighter by AFM is light years ahead.

BTW.... not only this thread.. it is defence.pk and you are welcome but seriously... if you look at history... smaller posts have more substance and pulling Teja and PAK-FA in this thread is really bit out of taste for many. infact.. i personally am tired of these names incl. MRCA.

 

[araz]

Sir,

These comments are uncalled for. It is not right to be demeaning---indeed the phrase is offensive, prejudicial and shows a very poor judgemental taste of the poster.

This is not what this board represents. We work very very hard to make it look professional in content and approach.

Tear us apart with your logic and knowledgable posts---and we will hum and haw but appreciate your work----but something like this-----it is not acceptable.

My man---you have not seen the current face of the indian you are talking about---he is a very tenacious, professional, smart working, pro active and a resourceful person. Please forget the stories that you have been told about that person.

You will be surprised to see them when you meet them in first person.

A warrior never demeans his enemy.

Wise words from a wise man.We should never try and demean anyone on the basis of their nationality or origins, This tentamounts to criminal neglect.
Araz

 

[BATMAN]

^last time, it was canceled/hold due to Indian pressures and also another reasons to steal French's technology from China.

French surely will go ahead!

ACM also mentioned that the news was mischeif end of clarification.

 

[Mani2020]

deckingraj


Regarding you first point sir ,No one can ever dictate terms to US and Pakistan was not an exception I agree with your point to some extent that we didnot played our cards right because of our poor strategy and foreign policy, but you have to except the fact that we didnot have the luxury like india to do so .This was because of two facts

US has a lot of influence in our politics secondly due to our poor economy (except from 2004 to 2008 which was a good patch for us)

From day one we had US aid and US was the biggest supplier of arms to Pakistan.Unlike india we didnot have the luxury to buy from russia and britain and later from Israel, After the embargo of 90's our defence strategy fell apart coz of the issues regarding the supply of parts specially for the f-16's that we had as our backbone.So when the chance came after 2001 we rushed towards them beacuse we were in need ,In order to have parity with india we needed US to get arms and aid from them as Russia wouldnot have provided us anything same goes for Britain and Chinese technology was not matured enough .As we were in need more than US so we were unable to dictate them the terms,We had no choice other than to go for the f-16's n for that we needed to make them happy


Regarding you second point ,India playing cards properly and extracting most out of it the reason i told you before that you have the economy and relationship with russia and israel to do so
And yes US needs India badly thats why they are tilting towards india they need a strategic partnership with india in order to cop the threat posed by China, They want to make india a regional power so it can pose a direct threat to China because China is posing a threat to US and US with a fear of getting overtaken by China is promoting a strategic partnership with india, But the game is not over yet.

Do you think india as a strong power will be beneficial for US? No. not at all and for that they are feeding Pakistan , so india have a threat in form of Pakistan,So the two big powers couldnot over take US as they remain fighting with each other.Hope you got my point

But unfortunately many indian members think that we are saying this because we are being threatened or getting jealous due to the closing ties b/w US and india


Regarding you third point of China and India, Sir you have to admit the fact that they are rivals the difference is that they cover their enmity through diplomacy unlike the case of Pakistan vs India,Both of us know the statements coming out from Indian military officials regarding China,and you COAS statment was not an exception.indian doctrine is based on China atleast thats what you ACM said during the event of su-30 stationing near Chinese border

 

[deckingraj]

In begining of your sentence you talk about of having 100SU and discard JF-17 because it is in process of buying avionics.
Immediately you start usual Teja, PAK-FA etc.
As the say.... either write in past or present or future but don't mixup and that too clearly to your advantage!!!! how unfair?
You'r 100 SU are not airworthy....
JF-17 can't be flying and fighting wars taking part in excercises and testing without avionics.
Editor of AFM have never witnesed quality targeting as displayed by Thunder... next generation Avionics package negotiations are underway for blk 2... just for variation and improvement in specs...
FYI.. we are also working on improved engine... that what shall this mean we should stop flying?
Teja is a failed project and need modifications in airframe...incl. wing design.... you are relatively new to forums but LCA designers have all over Pakistani defence forums... incl. this one... to learn about wing designs and air intakes.
PAK-FA is a bird which is under development in Russia and we are anxiously waiting for their arrival but mentioning them while thunder is participating in wars, praised and touted as potent fighter by AFM is light years ahead.

BTW.... not only this thread.. it is defence.pk and you are welcome but seriously... if you look at history... smaller posts have more substance and pulling Teja and PAK-FA in this thread is really bit out of taste for many. infact.. i personally am tired of these names incl. MRCA.

I would not have bothered to reply but then thought since i poked my nose i should atleast clarify....Do not read things out of context and make statements...If you want to believe that MKI is not fly worthy then be my guest...What i was saying is that we have inducted 100 MKI's and you are still closing on avionics of JF-17...In other words your induction at present is not even better than what we inducted 10 years back....Therafter i have tejas, MRCA and FGFA as planned future inductions....what are your future inductions counterparts to mine???

Answer all these questions and then read rest of my post you will realize the disparity is going to increase because of geo-politics and India's new found economic prowess....

P.S : this is a very JF-17 specific thread and i would like to keep it that way...I wanted to clear few things that Mani asked(actually to TM) and that's why shared my thoughts.... I will not reply to any of fan boy claims....All i wanted to share was things are difficult to Pak and its is going to increase the way things are folding out...

Also i am not new to this forum...Been here for over a year...So know a bit or two about failed/success programs...

 

[BATMAN]

What i was saying is that we have inducted 100 MKI's and you are still closing on avionics of JF-17...In other words your induction at present is not even better than what we inducted 10 years back....Therafter i have tejas, MRCA and FGFA as planned future inductions....what are your future inductions counterparts to mine???

fan boy...hmmmmm.... go read AFM magazine and write your valuable notifications to the editor.
Good luck with your future inductions.... which i doubt and the whole world doubt.

 

[Dark Angel]

In begining of your sentence you talk about of having 100SU and discard JF-17 because it is in process of buying avionics.
Immediately you start usual Teja, PAK-FA etc.
As the say.... either write in past or present or future but don't mixup and that too clearly to your advantage!!!! how unfair?
You'r 100 SU are not airworthy....
JF-17 can't be flying and fighting wars taking part in excercises and testing without avionics.
Editor of AFM have never witnesed quality targeting as displayed by Thunder... next generation Avionics package negotiations are underway for blk 2... just for variation and improvement in specs...
FYI.. we are also working on improved engine... that what shall this mean we should stop flying?
Teja is a failed project and need modifications in airframe...incl. wing design.... you are relatively new to forums but LCA designers have all over Pakistani defence forums... incl. this one... to learn about wing designs and air intakes.
PAK-FA is a bird which is under development in Russia and we are anxiously waiting for their arrival but mentioning them while thunder is participating in wars, praised and touted as potent fighter by AFM is light years ahead.

BTW.... not only this thread.. it is defence.pk and you are welcome but seriously... if you look at history... smaller posts have more substance and pulling Teja and PAK-FA in this thread is really bit out of taste for many. infact.. i personally am tired of these names incl. MRCA.

No one has to remind u that none of the members in the forum pay attention to ur post

 

[deckingraj]

deckingraj


Regarding you first point sir ,No one can ever dictate terms to US and Pakistan was not an exception I agree with your point to some extent that we didnot played our cards right because of our poor strategy and foreign policy, but you have to except the fact that we didnot have the luxury like india to do so .This was because of two facts

US has a lot of influence in our politics secondly due to our poor economy (except from 2004 to 2008 which was a good patch for us)

From day one we had US aid and US was the biggest supplier of arms to Pakistan.Unlike india we didnot have the luxury to buy from russia and britain and later from Israel, After the embargo of 90's our defence strategy fell apart coz of the issues regarding the supply of parts specially for the f-16's that we had as our backbone.So when the chance came after 2001 we rushed towards them beacuse we were in need ,In order to have parity with india we needed US to get arms and aid from them as Russia wouldnot have provided us anything same goes for Britain and Chinese technology was not matured enough .As we were in need more than US so we were unable to dictate them the terms,We had no choice other than to go for the f-16's n for that we needed to make them happy

Yes you got...I am in agreement with you...that's why i said that India-US bonhomie is going to increase your problems....

Regarding you second point ,India playing cards properly and extracting most out of it the reason i told you before that you have the economy and relationship with russia and israel to do so. And yes US needs India badly thats why they are tilting towards india they need a strategic partnership with india in order to cop the threat posed by China, They want to make india a regional power so it can pose a direct threat to China because China is posing a threat to US and US with a fear of getting overtaken by China is promoting a strategic partnership with india, But the game is not over yet.

And it never will...that's the beauty of diplomacy...If you read my post carefully i have used word "significant period"....

Do you think india as a strong power will be beneficial for US? No. not at all and for that they are feeding Pakistan , so india have a threat in form of Pakistan,So the two big powers couldnot over take US as they remain fighting with each other.Hope you got my point

I am getting your point...In fact Chanakya mind works in a different way....You would have seen that on contrary relations b/w India and China are becoming better every passing day....As far as a stronger India is concerned then buddy with stronger economy and zeal to be indigenous this is going to happen....There is lot of work to be done but we will reach there...As of now all we want is influence in the region and Indian Ocean...So far our aim is not in conflict with US interests.....

But unfortunately many indian members think that we are saying this because we are being threatened or getting jealous due to the closing ties b/w US and india

Anybody in his/her right mind will not take it as jealousy...this is logical thinking....

Regarding you third point of China and India, Sir you have to admit the fact that they are rivals the difference is that they cover their enmity through diplomacy unlike the case of Pakistan vs India,Both of us know the statements coming out from Indian military officials regarding China,and you COAS statment was not an exception.indian doctrine is based on China atleast thats what you ACM said during the event of su-30 stationing near Chinese border

Exactly...I never said India and CHina are brothers did i??? However they have overpowere their animosity and pledged that petty Border issues should not take better of them...Today engagement is $60 billion.....See the other side our last war was just a decade back with two incidents that brought us to the verge of yet another conflict....


P.S : I think you very much agree with what i said in previous post....So in short do you agree that it is in PAk best interest to have friendly relations with India??? This is what MK was also saying...Not sure where you differ....

 

[M8R]

Request to Mods: Please remove OT crap from this thread.

 

[Areesh]

No one has to remind u that none of the members in the forum pay attention to ur post

And nobody told you that he was answering to someone who has a great talent to fcuk the thread and the topic at hand.

You are over genius that is why you realize that no one is paying attention to his posts in fact everyone is paying attention to his posts except you.

 

[BATMAN]

No one has to remind u that none of the members in the forum pay attention to ur post

Thanks... no one! for reminding!
don't worry i'll shall continue the social work..

 

[White Dove]

And nobody told you that he was answering to someone who has a great talent to fcuk the thread and the topic at hand.

You are over genius that is why you realize that no one is paying attention to his posts in fact everyone is paying attention to his posts except you.

Only ppl paying attention to him are deluded with propaganda