JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[sancho]

Wt abt F-35.....its single engine and far batter then Typhoon/Rafale,
SU35/SU30MKI and F18S/H F15S.

The only advantage of F35 imo is stealth, which will be a clear advantage in BVR, but in close combat nearly all fighters you mentioned will be superior. Also in strike missions with weapons not only in the internal weapon bay the advantage of stealth is gone and some simulatons already shows that actual fighters like Rafale will be better in that role too.

 

[MZUBAIR]

Last night, Group Capitan Jawad , in Live with Tallat , Aaj Tv , said yet we have not capability at night strike , is this right and if we have JF-17 with night attack capability then why we don't use those in Sawat ?

JF-17 can't be used untill its in operation. At the moment there r 12 to 18 in KAMRA not offered to Pak Airforce.

 

[gambit]

The only advantage of F35 imo is stealth, which will be a clear advantage in BVR, but in close combat nearly all fighters you mentioned will be superior.

Debatable at best. Even in visual range combat, radar is being used and both the F-22's and F-35's designs are targeted at the ghz bands, the missile tracking/targeting bands.

Also in strike missions with weapons not only in the internal weapon bay the advantage of stealth is gone and some simulatons already shows that actual fighters like Rafale will be better in that role too.

If weapons are carried externally, then it is reasonable to assume that airborne threats are either none or minimal. In that case, just about any multi-role fighters will do the ground strikes just fine. Any fighters that are 'better' than the F-35 will be so because of increased payloads. But the intention of the F-35 is to penetrate high EM threat environments and successfully deliver its weapons to decrease and/or eliminate those high EM threat environments to prepare the area for others.

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

What is with Pakistani music videos and the Topgun scenes.

so do u want to boom an aircraft for each new video?
for ur excitment,there is alrerady an ejection of paf f7p.

 

[abbasniazi]

U know what, i have doubts about JF17's ability to handle IAF fighter's abilities, they have state of the art tech, getting more and more everyday, i am an extreemly patriot person but thats what increases my worries, in my opinion pakistan should invest havily in long range SAMs and preferably built themselves at home, i am not talking about anza type SAMs, i mean to say S-300 and S-400 Types, we need to knit an umbrella of SAMs to counter indian threat when all the odds are against us...

 

[maverick2009]

S300 & S400 are very expensive SAM systems. And They are Russian

You have American Paitriot Systems ans some say CHINA has FT2000

But no order has been made. at this stage i believe.

THE JF17 that is going thru IOC at this moment in time cannot handle the matured SU30MKI which has been service since 2002.

But posters here are suggesting New Radars new electronic even new engine and weapons for future JF17.

How
from whom
At what cost

Only time will tell.

 

[abbasniazi]

Maverick2009 sir,
This is whats worisome, JF17 has to counter SU30MKI, but i don't know how, u know SU30 is fully operational and everyone is in agreement that its a very capable fighter, now look for yourself JF17 radars range is 105+ Kms for 3m square target or 135+ Kms against Big targets, MKI's radar can track big targets upto 350 kms away, JF17 top speed 1.8 Mach, SU 30 2.35 Mach, JF17 ferry range 3000 kms SU30 8000 with refueling, JF17 still not operational SU30 fully operational for over 5 years, JF17 not tested against state of the art fighters, SU30 made an impression against best in the business in international exercises, JF17 not handed over to airforce as yet SU30 150+- with IAF alone, SU30 may get long range AAMs from russia, JF17 has SD10 which is not war proven as yet, all these facts are the basis of my wories and the workable solution which comes to my mind is SAMs to counter this threat....

 

[Tempest II]

... ... JF17 still not operational SU30 fully operational for over 5 years, JF17 not tested against state of the art fighters, SU30 made an impression against best in the business in international exercises, JF17 not handed over to airforce as yet SU30 150+- with IAF alone, SU30 may get long range AAMs from russia, JF17 has SD10 which is not war proven as yet, all these facts are the basis of my wories and the workable solution which comes to my mind is SAMs to counter this threat....

Concerning the above, I would ask, "do you consider the Eurofighter inferior to the F-16 because it is behind in development and entering service decades behind?" I see the eventual "final specification" of the JF-17 being reactive to "threats" therefore will be (platform and systems specifications (AWACS) and tactics) suitable to meet the challenge.

Maverick2009 sir, This is whats worisome, JF17 has to counter SU30MKI, but i don't know how, u know SU30 is fully operational and everyone is in agreement that its a very capable fighter, now look for yourself JF17 radars range is 105+ Kms for 3m square target or 135+ Kms against Big targets, MKI's radar can track big targets upto 350 kms away, JF17 top speed 1.8 Mach, SU 30 2.35 Mach, JF17 ferry range 3000 kms SU30 8000 with refueling, ....

I believe JF-17 will be defensive and not strike. Ground based radar and AWACS, with DATALINK, will give the JF-17 comparable situational awareness like the attacking force with the Su-30 escorts. The KLJ-7 at 105km will be good enough when it is time to fire the missiles. ... ... or if it is another 2 years from now, likely a different radar (Chinese or otherwise) will be available.

Concerning range, the JF-17 will be getting IFR. I also don't think the combat radius of the Thunder is bad considering a strategic defensive stance - it will still be able to make tactical strikes.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Maverick2009 sir,
This is whats worisome, JF17 has to counter SU30MKI, but i don't know how,

Well my dear... Why you are not counting F-16 and FC-20 fleet in PAF along with Erieye? beside that. Beside that air combat are not that simple to be decided on specs of fighter jets alone.

u know SU30 is fully operational and everyone is in agreement that its a very capable fighter, now look for yourself JF17 radars range is 105+ Kms for 3m square target or 135+ Kms against Big targets, MKI's radar can track big targets upto 350 kms away, JF17 top speed 1.8 Mach, SU 30 2.35 Mach, JF17 ferry range 3000 kms SU30 8000 with refueling,

First of all i would like to see your source regarding range of KLJ-7 radar. Second of all what you thing about RCS of SU-30MKI when fully loaded with weapons and fuel tanks? Ferry range is relatively not related to air combat if compared with combat radius of any fighter jet. JF-17 Thunder has more than 1300 KM of combat radius which is sufficient for PAF to fulfill role given to Thunders in war (Ariel Defense)

JF17 still not operational SU30 fully operational for over 5 years, JF17 not tested against state of the art fighters, SU30 made an impression against best in the business in international exercises,

Thunders are going to be operational soon as well. PAF had not Thunders while tension at border in 2002 did u see PAF worried? If not then why you are worried now when Thunders and Erieye are going to be part of PAF within this year or early next year. We are not at war with India at moment.

JF17 not handed over to airforce as yet SU30 150+- with IAF alone, SU30 may get long range AAMs from russia, JF17 has SD10 which is not war proven as yet,

Even Russian R-77 or R-27 are not war proven so why you are not worried about them as well. SD-10 is new but heavily based on R-77 but improved (at least in seeker tech)

A pair of J-10s were ready to take off carrying training rounds of PL-12 active radar homing AAMs and PL-8 IR homing AAMs. Its export version is called SD-10 and was first revealed to the public during the 2002 Zhuhai Airshow. PL-12 (K/AKK-12?) has been under development at LETRI/607 Institute since early 90s. It is expected to be in the same class as AIM-120A and its active seeker may have evolved from the earlier AMR-1 design (R-129? based on Russian 9B-1348 seeker & datalink for R-77). Its tailfins appear to have fin tips as well as the leading edges of the fin root cropped. These specially designed tailfins are believed to possess lower drag for greater speed and higher torque for better maneuverability. Two datalink antennas can be seen next to the nozzle for mid-course correction. PL-12 completed its development test in December 2004 and was certified in 2005. Currently it is entering the service carried by J-8F and J-10. Eventually it is expected to equip FC-1 and J-11B. Some specifications of SD-10: length 3,850mm, diameter 203mm, wing span 674mm, weight 180kg, max g-load 38g, max speed 4M, max range 70km.

Chinese Military Aviation

all these facts are the basis of my wories and the workable solution which comes to my mind is SAMs to counter this threat....

SAM are too expensive and vulnerable to long range Anti radiation missiles like HARM, K-31 etc. Once SAM taken care off again burden of air combat will be on fighters. So we better stick to the plan of improving Thunders. BTW, we are also getting new SAM known as SPADA.

 

[MZUBAIR]

JF-17 can't be used untill its in operation. At the moment there r 12 to 18 in KAMRA not offered to Pak Airforce.

But Mirage III Rose II upgraded can be surved as a "night striker".

ROSE II
ROSE II was the same as ROSE I, except the Grifo M3 radar was replaced with a new SAGEM Forward-Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) system. This gave ROSE II fighters the capability to fly safely in the dark at very low level to avoid radar, making them very effective ground strike aircraft during night-time operations - "night strike fighters".
The French air force supplied a total of 40 fully overhauled Mirage V, 34 single and 6 dual seat aircraft. Of the 40, 20 were upgraded to ROSE II standard. Their engines were overhauled for a four year and 300 hour minimum life span. This package included installation of chaff and flare dispenser, radar warning receiver and GPS navigation systems as well as all required ground support, LRU (line replaceable units) and alternate mission equipment.[7]

 

[Hunter911]

Now this is not very good of sarcasm.

SU-30MKI can be comparable to the F-15.
But india it seems has forgotten that the U.S. Air Force F-15 is starting get replaced . Pakistan's military XX who they can say that they are incapable to shoot down the SU-30MKI, but their armed forces have the ability to shoot it down.
The su-30 mki it has been no secret .

 

[mughaljee]

taimikhan & MZUBAIR
Thanks both of you,
By the way how much time will take PAF to adopt JF-17 for operation purpose ?

 

[TaimiKhan]

The radar for JF-17 is something new, not the KLJ-7, also confirmed by Murad Sir in one of the posts but details kind of secret.

KLJ-7 was mentioned for JF-17 about 5+ years ago, definitely in last 5 years modifications would have been done in the Chinese Radar technology making it into a more effective radar system or as some sources say KLJ-10 might have been used. But definitely the specifications would be much better then the 5 year old details.

Also as for SD-10 a newer variant SD-10A has been displayed and SD-10 was first shown around early 2000 or so. Its been also more then 7+ years since this missile came on the scene, 7 years is a huge time in making a missile more deadlier & efficient. The newer version is quoted to be having a range of 100KM+, some Chinese websites compare it to be equal to or just below the performance of AMRAAM-120C version.

So quoting JF-17 with 5+ years old technology would be an injustice to it, as in 5 years time enough advancement would have been made in the Chinese Radar Technology & Missile technology to make it into a competitive aircraft.

Plus Chinese HQ-9 would be a good choice for Long Range Air Defense purposes. Its claimed range to be around 125KM while some sources say it may have reached to the 150KM mark. MBDA SPADA can work as a medium range SAM system which can be complemented with new Chinese HQ-16 SAM system.

HQ-9 range will give Pakistan a very good coverage of its air space & can be a deadly threat to any Indian Aircraft intruding in our air space.

 

[SinoIndusFriendship]

The radar for JF-17 is something new, not the KLJ-7, also confirmed by Murad Sir in one of the posts but details kind of secret.

KLJ-7 was mentioned for JF-17 about 5+ years ago, definitely in last 5 years modifications would have been done in the Chinese Radar technology making it into a more effective radar system or as some sources say KLJ-10 might have been used. But definitely the specifications would be much better then the 5 year old details.

Also as for SD-10 a newer variant SD-10A has been displayed and SD-10 was first shown around early 2000 or so. Its been also more then 7+ years since this missile came on the scene, 7 years is a huge time in making a missile more deadlier & efficient. The newer version is quoted to be having a range of 100KM+, some Chinese websites compare it to be equal to or just below the performance of AMRAAM-120C version.

So quoting JF-17 with 5+ years old technology would be an injustice to it, as in 5 years time enough advancement would have been made in the Chinese Radar Technology & Missile technology to make it into a competitive aircraft.

Plus Chinese HQ-9 would be a good choice for Long Range Air Defense purposes. Its claimed range to be around 125KM while some sources say it may have reached to the 150KM mark. MBDA SPADA can work as a medium range SAM system which can be complemented with new Chinese HQ-16 SAM system.

HQ-9 range will give Pakistan a very good coverage of its air space & can be a deadly threat to any Indian Aircraft intruding in our air space.

You guys would be flabergasted at some of the cutting-edge research & development done by Chinese people. But like they say, underestimate your rivals at your own cost!

 

[PakShaheen79]

Also as for SD-10 a newer variant SD-10A has been displayed and SD-10 was first shown around early 2000 or so. Its been also more then 7+ years since this missile came on the scene, 7 years is a huge time in making a missile more deadlier & efficient. The newer version is quoted to be having a range of 100KM+, some Chinese websites compare it to be equal to or just below the performance of AMRAAM-120C version.

So quoting JF-17 with 5+ years old technology would be an injustice to it, as in 5 years time enough advancement would have been made in the Chinese Radar Technology & Missile technology to make it into a competitive aircraft.

Are you talking about PL-21.Here is some info

A new long-range AAM (PL-21?) is believed to be under development. Based on some of the PL-12 technology, PL-21 appears similar to British Meteror. It features an active radar seeker and an integrated ramjet/solid rocket motor with a single belly air intake. PL-21 also features 4 small stabilzing fins behind the active radar seeker, a characteristics of Russian R-27/AA-10. Small datalink antennas may be installed in the tail section for mid-course correction. The effective range of PL-21 is expected to be >100km. The missile might be carried by the new J-11B fighter for long-range interception.

- Last Updated 1/28/08
Chinese Military Aviation

If you are takling about a different system please let me know through a link. It is first time i am listening something as SD-10A.

Plus Chinese HQ-9 would be a good choice for Long Range Air Defense purposes. Its claimed range to be around 125KM while some sources say it may have reached to the 150KM mark. MBDA SPADA can work as a medium range SAM system which can be complemented with new Chinese HQ-16 SAM system.

HQ-9 range will give Pakistan a very good coverage of its air space & can be a deadly threat to any Indian Aircraft intruding in our air space.

Question is if Chinese has HQ-9 why they are importing S-300 from Russia? Think How PAF can accept a system which Chinese forces themselves did not receive.