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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 1]

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replacing old junk like mirage-3 F-7 and Q-5. .

what makes u think they r junk - they have played a vital role for the PAF in peace time acting as a detterent. the enemy still has to destroy this so called junk before it achieves air superiority and it wont be easy!
 
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I concur. Of the ones listed, ROSE Mirages and F-7PGs are definitely not junk. They can hold their own in the roles they are dedicated for. The Mirages specially have the ability to make life miserable, with precision, for the other side regardless of day or night. ;)
 
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I totally agree with you there Blain sir!!!!!! have some faith in our PAF people for real :undecided::bunny:
 
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I concur. Of the ones listed, ROSE Mirages and F-7PGs are definitely not junk. They can hold their own in the roles they are dedicated for. The Mirages specially have the ability to make life miserable, with precision, for the other side regardless of day or night. ;)

thx blain2 - could u kindly explain the differences in the various ROSE categories (I / II / III)

mods - need this exception!
 
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lol.. take it easy man..
to be honest with you.. At current stage JF-17 is not such a great deal when comparing it with other 4th gen fighters. Its only role is to full fill the requirement of replacing old junk like mirage-3 F-7 and Q-5. How ever we must give it some time to mature who knows, eventually all strong fleet of 250 could be upgraded to block 52 standard.. Just in matter of years...

Dude watch it don't say anything to Mirage III or V they are my babies,
Yes in the past few months their have been fatalities only one was unavoidable I cannot go in details but some times experienced pilots do things which should not be done specially with a Delta wing or even F-7s. But I tell you Mirage in the hands of a good pilot is an Iron Eagle.
 
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what makes u think they r junk - they have played a vital role for the PAF in peace time acting as a detterent. the enemy still has to destroy this so called junk before it achieves air superiority and it wont be easy!

How long do we rely on these planes with 4 pylons? The East is already long time ahead of us in BVR hit capability when pitching F-7PG or the so called "Rose upgraded" Mirage-III.. These were the same planes that failed to detect a freakin UAV. Our southern Air command is heavily relying on Mirage fleet opposed to Indian south-west air command with 3 squadron of Su-30 MKI and mixture of upgraded Migs squdrons.
They served their role and now its time for them leave as quickly as possible.
 
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Dude watch it don't say anything to Mirage III or V they are my babies,
Yes in the past few months their have been fatalities only one was unavoidable I cannot go in details but some times experienced pilots do things which should not be done specially with a Delta wing or even F-7s. But I tell you Mirage in the hands of a good pilot is an Iron Eagle.

Sorry Sir..
But i personally wish we were 10-20 years behind with Mirage-III fleet.:undecided:
sorry I take my words back for Mirage being junkies..
 
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Mirages and F-7s can be retained if they are made capable of carrying advanced WVR AAMs, modern ECM and lastly that Escorts armed with BVRs are available for them. I think its not suitable to leave our F-7s (without BVR missiles) to Su-30/Mig-29/Mirage-2000/Mig-21 Bison/future MRCA. Air superiority fighters with BVRs shall virtually be required to escort all other formations for their safety and success of the mission.

If Mig-21bis can be armed with R-77.....then I think F-7s also can be armed with AMRAAM, Mica or other BVR.......But if PAF is thinking of retiring F-7s with JF-17s, then perhaps PAF may not invest in it.

For pylons, I would say that for air defence its not a big issue if F-7s just have 5 pylons. An F-7 armed with 4 AAMs, guns loaded and a center-line fuel tank is in optimum configuration for dogfight.
 
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thx blain2 - could u kindly explain the differences in the various ROSE categories (I / II / III)

mods - need this exception!

Sir, based on what I recall, ROSE upgrades cover a number of Mirage III and V aircraft. For ROSE I aircraft, usually you can tell by looking at the nose which is fairly large due to the larger diameter of the Grifo M3 radar integrated. This radar has better range/performance than the APG-66 which we have on our F-16s.

ROSE II and III Mirages have an underbelly FLIR pod (below the cockpit). Those are usually the tell-tale signs of ROSE I vs II and III Mirages. For ROSE upgrades, the older Cyrano radars were stripped. Also ROSE II and III are exactly the same upgrades, they just happened at different times and as such PAF gave the Projects different designations I.E. ROSE II and ROSE III.

Mirage Vs also include those in service with the No. 8 sqn which have neither the FLIR nor the GrifoM3. Instead they carry the Agave Radar mated to Exocet AShM.


Aircraft with Serial nos. Status Role Year of purchase Country of Purchase Qty
MIRAGE III EA (O)(500 series) ROSE-I Multirole 1990 Australia
MIRAGE III OD(800 series) ROSE-I Trainer 1990 Australia
MIRAGE 5 EF (700 series) ROSE-I 1996 FRANCE
MIRAGE 5 EF (700 series) ROSE-II 1996 FRANCE
MIRAGE III BE ROSE-I Trainer 1996 FRANCE

TOTAL approx. 84

I removed the ind. quantity as I was unable to verify how many from each batch got what type of ROSE upgrade. (the above batch list was compiled by someone else though...I am not taking credit for that).

So essentially ROSE I - better AI capability
ROSE II and III - better day/nigh precision attack capability.
 
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We got 50 Mirages from Aussis plus a **** load of spares for free ( The Spares which included engines )
 
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SO THIS ARTICLE IS FOR 23rd March and shehbazi2001.

How should we start
AGEING AIRCRAFTS AND NAGGING WIVES

Ageing aircraft like ageing spouses, Become more amd more nagging as they age. Having said that, may I explain.
Being an Air Force with limited resources PAF has a record of pushing the limits on aircrafts life. Likewise, we do not retire our tools untill they beg for mercy killing, Whereas we should have respectfully buried those years before with full honours, and brought new ones in their place. It may be the nostalgia of keeping my favourite screwdriver untill the philips end changes to a chisel, or it could be my ingrained fear that parting with my lucky screwdriver would bring bad luck, or could it be the psyche at the back of our technicians' mind that each screwdriver coasts a lot- that too in dollors. whatever the reason may be, we like our equipment to outlive us.

Comming back to nagging part, every day I see the Tweety Bird ( T-37)
serving PAF's traning flying like a speechless mule that has a mission in life. But it still does not nag - not loudly at least. Deep inside its heart, it also yearns for a retirement, giving that the first T-37 flew in 1955. It is hard to imagine how many pentagenarians are ready to have 2 adults ride on their shoulders and still try to land softly on touchdown after a high jump. A hard landing the Tweety takes in a stride and nag the Tweety does, albeit politely.
AirCraft is a complicated machine. it has a wide varity of components, ranging from metallic panels, to rubber hoses, to thin wires, to high quality HUD glasses and complicated avionics. The variety is bewildering. Reliability and maintainability of all this jumbles varies just as much, some components require huge test rigs to calibrate, while others are hardwired using lasers. Some have lives just a fraction of the aircraft life, and some never get off the aircraft, ever.
With such an amalgam of componemts, it is but natural that as the aircraft ages, its maintenance workload increases. Parts that get old start to leak: Some develop cracks that were never anticipated. No aircraft is designed to operate 50 years, and yet we make it to. But with the decision to fly the aircraft for so long, we must weign the accompanying increase in risk, workloadin its upkeep and operating cost. Statistically the flight safety risks, maintenance workload and the cost of spares, all increase with the age of the aircraft. Obsolescence also adds to the cost of spares as they become uneconomical for the manufacture old technology components. Late upgrades to pre-empt failure coast more on ageing aircraft.
nevertheless, the decreasing MTBF ( Mean Time Between Failure) is not uniform across the components over a long life. There are components such as tyres and drag chutes that are designed for a limited number of sorties, and there are aircraft panels that are designed to last thousands of hours. Life expired aircraft pitched in park and in rounabouts even road side in Lower topa and my sabe has a pole stuck up its *** in the front off Peshawar Mucipal building and these are testimony to extremely strong materials in construction of their basic structure, skin and panels.
On top of all this therer are unplanned factors such as FOD, accidents, excessive aircraft stresses, weather phenomena, etc. The bolt from the sky , the birds in the sky, or the nut and bolt on the ground that just come out of nowhere , causes the maintance crew an additional headache, for no fault of theirs. but agian the bolt on the ground is someone's fault. A technician thinking about flood water entering his village in Mardan or thinking how to convince his wife so he can get laid because she is pissed at him that there is no money left for her to buy a dress or something and the tec will forget his tools in, of all the places , the engine intake. These issues cannot form a major part of the design philosophy or maintenance of an aircraft part.
And that, preciely brings in a serious dilemma faced by today's maintenance engineers. As long as the aircraft are new they perform like the ferrari that comes with a 50,000km unconditional warranty. But on the ageing aircraft the warranty is long forgotton promise. the big question for the aircraft is how to predict and avoid failure of a component without losing an important part of its life? It is easy to remove a component and put it in a repair cycle, or altogather reject it, thinking that it might fail in a couple of weeks. But how to make that judgment without knowing the complete effects of that decision? The manufacture gives a certain life to an aircraft based on certain operating conditions. The design engineer does not know how is he going to operate the aircraft while it flies in Risalpure, Samungli or the corrosive Masoor. Thankfully the taxpayers who are not so many in Pakistan have faith in PAF not to throw away their hard eanrned money. But with his luxury comes the enormous burden of ensuring its best utilization and balancing cost of maintenance against life of a pilot.
With such Varience between the design and operating conditions of ageing aircrafts, arises the silent whimpers of the ageing aircraft, Which show a little material failures that never happened before. Every new crack, every new leakis saying that the aircraft needs more than regular care. It needs meticulous inspections like never before. It needs that second look just in case you missed the silent tears from the sobing fuel hose, or th ebleeding from the hydraulic fluid connection in your first glance.
And the most important aspect is that we dont have that kind of cash that we can simply say retire these and by 50 new ones , with all the sanctions placed on us, We should be proud of our PAF that it has done so well that it has the reputation of being one of the best. we only talk about the pilots ans thats it but we forget that the men who work on them are the real heros.
So next time you pass by an aircraft past its prime years, eye it closely to look for signs of ageing, Which will not show easily, but still would be there to warn you of the impending catasrophe.
Nagging is not something you should miss out or brush off as trivial. And you could relicate it in your life, with your wife , when your better half is past 40- if you wish to live long.
 
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Sir, based on what I recall, ROSE upgrades cover a number of Mirage III and V aircraft. For ROSE I aircraft, usually you can tell by looking at the nose which is fairly large due to the larger diameter of the Grifo M3 radar integrated. This radar has better range/performance than the APG-66 which we have on our F-16s.

ROSE II and III Mirages have an underbelly FLIR pod (below the cockpit). Those are usually the tell-tale signs of ROSE I vs II and III Mirages. For ROSE upgrades, the older Cyrano radars were stripped. Also ROSE II and III are exactly the same upgrades, they just happened at different times and as such PAF gave the Projects different designations I.E. ROSE II and ROSE III.

Mirage Vs also include those in service with the No. 8 sqn which have neither the FLIR nor the GrifoM3. Instead they carry the Agave Radar mated to Exocet AShM.


Aircraft with Serial nos. Status Role Year of purchase Country of Purchase Qty
MIRAGE III EA (O)(500 series) ROSE-I Multirole 1990 Australia
MIRAGE III OD(800 series) ROSE-I Trainer 1990 Australia
MIRAGE 5 EF (700 series) ROSE-I 1996 FRANCE
MIRAGE 5 EF (700 series) ROSE-II 1996 FRANCE
MIRAGE III BE ROSE-I Trainer 1996 FRANCE

TOTAL approx. 84

I removed the ind. quantity as I was unable to verify how many from each batch got what type of ROSE upgrade. (the above batch list was compiled by someone else though...I am not taking credit for that).

So essentially ROSE I - better AI capability
ROSE II and III - better day/nigh precision attack capability.

blain2 - thanks for your time - it is now crystal clear to me. it was bothering me for a while.
 
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Murad sahib you mentioned of your Sabre in front of Municipal Building Peshawar. Yes it was there till almost 2002. Then I remember that two Sabres disappeared from Peshawar, including this one.

One Sabre was there in Engineering University Peshawar and other was near Municipal Building. I dont remember exactly, but both of these disappeared almost in 2004-2005. I think its the same PAF Museum story. The jet engine (of Attacker I think) was also removed from Engineering University Peshawar.

While the Municipal Sabre's removal may be ok, I did not like the act of removal of Sabre from Engineering University Peshawar. As a student of Engineering, it was an inspiration for me to understand the aircrafts and I used to watch it closely from time to time. There are many Sabres on the useless locations, acting as show pieces. They can be removed but the Sabre of Engineering University was not a show piece, it was a machine to understand.
 
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MuradK saheb.
A question about oldaircrafts and their lmaintenance. Why is it thatF16 s dont corrode whereas Mirages corrode. Secondly I gather hairline cracks are a persistent problem. I read somewhere that people use ??Laser to diagnose hairline fractures. Is it true and what means does PAF use. Obviously, if I have asked something that you dont want to talk about on a public forum please let me know.
WaSalam
Araz
 
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here ... I took these pictures in Murree

901a81e5f5779db5988e3cb475dccce4.jpg

471f214588cc828ac1f17eb9ea4e7818.jpg
 
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