The Erieyes will identify aircraft at large ranges but its not going to provide a radar lock. Nor will it provide mid-course updates to a launched missile. All that has to come from the aircraft. The AMRAAM's no escape envelope is similar to that of the Adder though it is better in the terminal stage but has a lower speed I think.
The MKI will get a radar-lock at a greater range and will launch salvos at intervals of 10-15 seconds (I'm repeating someone else's scenario) which means that they don't have to dodge the AMRAAMs unless the F-16s decide to go for a suicide attack. I realise that every engagement cannot follow this pattern but it is the most likely one. That said, the F-16s are capable of pulling a surprise on the MKIs, but one shouldn't be counting on it.
Rather simplistic view of getting a lock-on and on top of that an overtly simplified assumption that a lock-on = aircraft being shot down...this does not take into account many other factors like active jamming etc. which can negate lock-ons as it makes lock-ons twice as hard...the F-16's ECM suite is no slouch in this department. Secondly, the farther the distance of a lock-on and launch of BVR missiles, the easier it is for the other side to be able to haul *** and get out of trouble once the lock-on is detected.
Secondly, F-16 by far having a smaller RCS would not allow MKI to take shots at it from the limits of its radar range (due to limitation of the BVRAAM range)...the MKI would need to be fairly close (to the point where even itself would be vulnerable to the slammer) for a shot to count (again do not go by theoretical max detection and missile ranges...usually these numbers are hyped up considerably by the producers...although I am aware of claims by IAF fans about the ranges they claimed their MKIs were able to detect Mig-21s at and F-16 has a much lower RCS than the Mig-21).
Also, Data Linking of BVR with the help of AEW&CS is not something undoable....RAF slaved the AMRAAMs from their Tornados to the E3s and were able to test it out effectively. Its actually funny to read the way you guys discount every other aircraft in comparison to the MKI.
They are massively outnumbered. The F-16s for example will not take the Su-30MKI on one on one. It'll probably be something like 6 MKIs against 4 F-16s. By 2015 the IAF will have 350-400 4.5 generation aircraft and a probably a smaller number of 5 gen. or quasi 5 gen aircraft.
That is what you think....PAF does not train like that...you train with tactics of 2 against 4, 2 agains 6, 1 against 1 etc. etc....its a matter of how effectively the airspace is managed by the AEWCS...you could find the MKIs buzzed by 8 or more aircraft if the IAF is actually coming in to contest air superiority over Pakistani airspace or 1 F-16 is vectored and employed properly to take on multiple IAF bogies including MKIs...all it takes is better employment and decent BVR capability to do this...both doable in an environment where your adversary has Erieye and Slammers to their advantage.
Also what is with this 4.5 gen deal? Do you know the difference b/w a 4th gen (which is where the older version of F-16s and JF-17 would fall into) and 4.5 gen is simply how much computing they are using....the blk52/60 F-16 is actually a better integrated 4.5 gen aircraft by any measure than the MKI...there is no aerodynamic generational change between the 4th and 4.5 generation aircraft...its simply a matter of how much glassing and some minor composite manufacturing you have going in an airframe with origins from the 70s and 80s. So when you guys repeatedly quote this "marketing" term of 4.5 gen..know so that its only avionics and computing that they are talking about....and in that department, the MKI is no where a generation advanced than the blk52/60 aircraft.
Before you discount my claim, just know that there is way too much hoopla about the generational catagorization. I would not get too carried away by such classifications. In terms of avionics and their integration, the blk 52 actually exceeds the MKI in terms of the computing power and glassing (automation by way of computers) since your MKI is essentially a hodge-podge of COTS integration).
The only very major difference is b/w 5th gen and all of the others....this change is in the magnitude of going from 2nd Gen to 3rd gen which saw the greatest change in aircraft design and technology....so until and unless you are flying something in the class of F/A-22, don't mention 5th generation.
As of now yes. F-22 is impossible but the F-35s are a contender for the ADS to be inducted in 2011-12. The US has shown indications of allowing such a sale to India. The IN chief (now ex-chief) also clearly stated his preferrance for it. Lockheed Martin made comments to the same effect.
Well lets put this discussion off for about 4-5 years...this not something that PAF has to cater to in the next 7-10 years.
Precisely why I went into the budget thing. Which 4.5 gen. aircraft does the PAF have today? A budget of $2 billion for the PAF compared to $6 billion for the IAF. How will the PAF afford the best in the sub-continent? You're dismissing the AESA as a minor thing. Every AF in the world isn't clamoring for AESAs for nothing. It is the reason why the F-18 today has a major advantage over the Rafale. The F/A-18 E/F also comes with stealth features reducing the RCS considerabily. The MRCA has been fast-tracked which means it could be inducted completed by 2012.
F-16 blk 52 is a 4.5 gen aircraft. If you can tell me why the MKI is and F-16 blk 52 is not then I will say that PAF does not have a 4.5 gen aircraft. The F/A-18s RCS is better than the F-16s I admit, that is all fine and dandy, however then again you are assuming that PAF would not be able to get its hands on more advanced version of AIM-120 or another alternate (potentially even longer range SD-10) to counter this. The other ace in the sleeve for Pakistan is J-10. Nobody and especially IAF know anything about the Aircraft and it could easily have the capability to match up against the SuperHornet.
The French have been marketing the Rafale to Pakistan and everyone else and they are not the only ones also working on AESA capability...so all these discussions about future acquisitions actually lend nothing to this discussion......who knows that US will offer JSF to Pakistan? It may seem unlikely right now, but so did F-16 blk 52 5 months ago.
Saying its not been proven, is a poor argument. The Raptor isn't proven either. We're well past that stage today where every aircraft has to be tested in actual combat before we can certify it as a capable one. The IAF trains with the MKI for ground attack. I'm sure they know what they are doing.
That was not my point...I actually said that MKI is probably the first MR aircraft in service with the IAF, however training for ground attack does not mean that the aircraft works extremely well with it....in the PAF, we train with PGM sorties with F-7s, and we train in ground-attack/CAS/BAI roles with all types, however some aircraft are better than others (in the case of ground attack in the PAF, our ROSE II Mirages with DART FLIR even exceed the F-16s), so the point is maybe the MKI is an excellent ground attack aircraft or maybe its marginal...I just do not know and neither do you. If the MKI is very good at it, then it proves my point all the more that its the first true MR aircraft in the IAF inventory.
, Pakistan is too important for the US to simply drop it for India....at least not for the next 10 years or so.
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