JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 1]

[Contrarian]

yeah, its the ACM's job to be concerned at everything. So he is doing something for which he draws a paycheck.

Now, you know how India is also spending more and more money on defnse. Safe to say that they will always keep buying new technologies againa nd again and again. The IAF is also modernizing mate. There are going to be greater than 200 fighters being bought!! All of them capable to challenging your best, which is not JF-17, i hope you agree to that. Whereas JF-17 is going to be the workhorse of PAF to fight everywhere, as it will be the maximum numbering plane in the PAF fleet.

Now mate, you cannot compare Meteor with AIM 120. Meteor as of now will outclass it. Btw Which version of AIM is Pakistan getting?? US will surelt not sell the AIM 120d version. At max what you get willl be AIM 120c. Which is a nogo mate. Even the 'd' version cannot copare with teh Meteor. The USAF is developing another BVRAAM to counter the Meteor. AIM is not a god sent missile that will take out everything. The R-77 is more than sufficient to counter it. Something we already posess.

 

[vnomad]

Now mate, you cannot compare Meteor with AIM 120. Meteor as of now will outclass it.

Absolutely. But, the problem is that its coming out by 2011-12.

Which version of AIM is Pakistan getting?? US will surelt not sell the AIM 120d version.

Pakistan is getting 500 Aim-120C5 AMRAAMs.

Even the 'd' version cannot copare with teh Meteor. The USAF is developing another BVRAAM to counter the Meteor. AIM is not a god sent missile that will take out everything.

The D version isn't out yet. Its scheduled to enter service by the end of next year which means that the IAF will get it should it decide to go in for the F/A-18 Shornet. The Meteor in contrast will take over half a decade to be operationalized. It will ofcourse be much superior (ramjet propelled) to the Aim-120D which is why there is a plan to modify the F-35s to carry it. Raytheon also had a ramjet missile in the pipeline but its been cancelled I believe. They evidently decided to join the Meteor project. The Russians too have a ramjet version of the R-77 in development - R-77M. Progress on it is unknown.

 

[joey]

blain > Thanks for it, lemme read about the fighter a bit more i'll come back to you.

When your talking about interception i want to ask one thing like IAF uses dedicated multirole/interception/ground attack/EW fighters how can is it possible to use Jf17 for all the same?
now if you say J10 I agree with you that its a true multirole ac.

Can you tell me how long can jf17 cruise without using afterburners?
for how long it can use this 1.8 mach speed? and sustain?

 

[vnomad]

How is the radar better (range is not the only thing that matters and if you say that it is one of the most important things then see my point about OTH detection capability that PAF will be fielding...it negates this advantage greatly).

I'm no expert but a recent discussion led me to believe that the MKI's radar gave it a very large edge over the F-16. The AMRAAM and Adder both require mid-course guidance updates. Radar lock at a larger range means that the MKI launches an salvo of R-77s first. The F-16s can then either dodge the R-77s or launch its AMRAAMs. There are several other variables that come into play and the F-16 is a very potent adversary, but against the MKI, the MKI does have a very very significant edge. Its half a generation ahead of the F-16. Surely that counts for something.

The F-16 does a whole lot of things better than any other aircraft in the USAF service including the F-15

Ground attack right? SEAD, DEAD, delivery of smart munitions etc etc. There is nothing to suggest that the Su-30MKI is inferior in any of those functions.

I am already aware of the fact that this will probably be split or weigh in on the side of the Russian offer...in either case, it does not change the baseline which is that from a deterrance point of view, PAF will be in a very good shape having got rid of all short-legged platforms like the F-7, Mirages etc. and flying an all-BVR capable fleet.

It will still be outnumbered by the IAF. The Indian defence expenditure is $19-20 billion compared to $4-4.5 billion for Pakistan. Assuming that both spend an equal % on their respective airforces, the IAF will be in a vastly better position with respect to buying weapons and tech. How is the PAF going to counter that?

I have my own thoughts about your claims about the Rafale etc....but I can guarantee IAF is not buying the Rafale.

I agree. The possibility of Rafales being bought is faint(though it cannot be overruled). A better option would be the F-18E/F. An excellent AESA and AMRAAMs(Aim-120C7s or even better Ds). I believe there is an option for the EA-18G Growler too. The best part is an excellent scope for upgrades. This aircraft will be the best in the sub-continent except perhaps for the later batches of the Su-30MKI.

Mig-35 is still a theoretical offering (as was the MKI at one point), when it is delivered, PAF would already be inducting J-10s and potentially some other platform...the entire paragraph above is actually a future projection so who knows.

The MiG-35 is not theoretical but an MKised version of it is.

PAF already is working on a force enhancement project that takes it beyond countering the capabilities of a single platform like the MKI....the modernization program undertaken by the PAF over the next few years will put a more robust deterrance against the IAF than ever...regardless of the induction of Mig-35 and F/A-18.

The Indian armed forces are also in the midst of a massive modernisation plan. This is precisely why I quoted the defence budgets of both countries.

Keep in mind that I am not the one who was voicing concern about the modernization of the PAF, it was your own air chief.

That's his job. His 'secret' letter apparently worked as the MoD isn't sitting over the MRCA proposal anymore. Its been fast-tracked as has been the production of the Su-30MKI. Bureaucratic reforms are also responsible for an overhaul of the military procurement system presently underway.

 

[Contrarian]

The D version isn't out yet. Its scheduled to enter service by the end of next year which means that the IAF will get it should it decide to go in for the F/A-18 Shornet. The Meteor in contrast will take over half a decade to be operationalized. It will ofcourse be much superior (ramjet propelled) to the Aim-120D which is why there is a plan to modify the F-35s to carry it. Raytheon also had a ramjet missile in the pipeline but its been cancelled I believe. They evidently decided to join the Meteor project. The Russians too have a ramjet version of the R-77 in development - R-77M. Progress on it is unknown.

The D version is either out or is just about to mate.And Pakistan has been given AIM 120-C5, not even the C-7 which is the std now. And D is all bout to be in. It is supposed to have 50%in range, and a much greater no escape zone. And if IAF goes for SHornet, we will definitely get it. As regards to Meteor...nothing in its class baby. And it will start getting inducted by the beggining of the next decade. That is starting 2010. So its not that far. That will be the time that our MRCA's will start arriving in proper quantities too, and our Su-30MKI's will also be in a HUGE quantity. I dunno about R-77M.

Oh yeah , the Growler is also in sale to India. And hopefully the defense budget will be much bigger next time.

 

[vnomad]

The D version is either out or is just about to mate.And Pakistan has been given AIM 120-C5, its not the latest. There is C-7 also. And D is all bout to be in.

Aim-120D will enter service by December 2007.

http://www.deagel.com/pandora/aim-120d-amraam_mn00005006.aspx

"The contract also provided funds for the AIM-120D production transition with AIM-120D deliveries beginning December 2007 through January 2009."

And it will start getting inducted by the beggining of the next decade. That is starting 2010. So its not that far.

Sorry bro. Its slated to enter service by 2012.
Check the link.
http://www.answers.com/topic/mbda-meteor
See the table.

http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk/common/AA/bvraam.html

"However this date has now slipped greatly to a 90% confidence of an ISD of August 2012, with 50% confidence for September 2011."

The Meteor has a no-escape range of 80kms almost twice that of the AMRAAM. Its obviously better or the USAF wouldn't be trying to integrate it to the F-35 LighteningII.

Are you sure of the offer of the Growler? I haven't found any links on it.

 

[Contrarian]

Either way, we get the aim 120D, as its almost certain that Shornet will be bought. Rafale has a slim chance.

hang on mate, i read it somewhere, let me try and find the linkf ro growler. I have read it, but cant quite locate it.

 

[falcone]

Hello everyone.

I have read that the JF-17 is supposed to get IRST at some point. Does anyone know whether the pre-production aircraft or production aircraft will get this? Also, what are some advantages of IRST?

 

[blain2]

blain > Thanks for it, lemme read about the fighter a bit more i'll come back to you.

When your talking about interception i want to ask one thing like IAF uses dedicated multirole/interception/ground attack/EW fighters how can is it possible to use Jf17 for all the same?
now if you say J10 I agree with you that its a true multirole ac.

Can you tell me how long can jf17 cruise without using afterburners?
for how long it can use this 1.8 mach speed? and sustain?

The reason IAF uses dedicated aircraft is because it never had a true multi-role aircraft like the F-16 in service....even the M2Ks that you have in service is not as good of a multi-role aircraft as the F-16..the version you guys currently have is something that PAF has evaluated at least 3 times (only M2k-5 was found to be a good enough aircraft for the PAF to consider) and found it to be lacking on the multi-role front. The MKI is the first aircraft which gives you guys a decent but untested MR capability.

The JF-17 has similar weapons and avionics suite as the existing F-16s in service and for some reason I do not see your logic as to why the F-16 can be a true MR but JF-17 with all of the same bells and whistles cannot? (Its your Indian bias and not facts in my opinion..in any case you just have to wait for a year or so to see what role PAF would be deploying them in...MR is a given).

With regards to your question on Afterburner, what bearing does it have on an aircraft's MR capability? I am sure the JF-17 cannot go on full-afterburner for a long time but to put some context around what you ask, F/A-18 with 3 drop-tanks can only push full-afterburner for 15-20 minutes max before it runs out of fuel..so go figure.

 

[blain2]

I'm no expert but a recent discussion led me to believe that the MKI's radar gave it a very large edge over the F-16. The AMRAAM and Adder both require mid-course guidance updates. Radar lock at a larger range means that the MKI launches an salvo of R-77s first. The F-16s can then either dodge the R-77s or launch its AMRAAMs. There are several other variables that come into play and the F-16 is a very potent adversary, but against the MKI, the MKI does have a very very significant edge. Its half a generation ahead of the F-16. Surely that counts for something.

MKI's radar would help and matter if all PAF was relying on was Air-Intercept radars of its own fighters like the APG-66 on the existing F-16s or the Grifo M3 (same class as APG-66). However this will not be the case in the near future with Erieyes being inducted. The mid-course linking is something that is of importance however the existing BVR weaponry on both sides cannot even come close to the ranges at which the aircraft will be detected (even the in-the-works AIM-120 with the 100+ km range or the Russian counterparts cannot be used at the excessive ranges that some of the newer radars offer....also keep in mind that the farther away you are, the harder it is to effectively lock-on a target. There is an effective kill zone and it does not extend to the max range of the BVR AAM).

There are very many other factors involved in an AWACS managed airspace which render the benefits of extended range AI radars curtailed greatly. You do not have a 360 view of the airspace...all you see is what is in front of you (The MKI has a radar in the rear too but that too cannot look up down all the way) so its a matter of how adversary aircraft are employed to handle the threat of detection at extended ranges...this is something that IAF and PAF will have to be mindful about and as such even aircraft like the older airframes with a barebone BVR capability become a threat.

Ground attack right? SEAD, DEAD, delivery of smart munitions etc etc. There is nothing to suggest that the Su-30MKI is inferior in any of those functions.

Well MKI has never been proven in these roles [for that matter no Russian aircraft has been proven in these roles aside from the Frogfoot (but not in precision role)...PGMs were first mated to the SU-30 in this decade] so nobody can speak with surity....what has been tried and tested and seen in combat is the western hardware including the F-16s...besides I never said that the MKI cannot do it..I basically said that F-16 does this stuff better than most other aircraft...in the case of dedicated vs. MR aircraft, I still have a video of a NATO meet in West Germany in 1979 where the F-16 went up against the Jaguar of the RAF and one other aircraft (I believe it was a RAF Buccaneer), even though the Jaguar was a dedicated strike aircraft, the F-16 in that role too exceeded the performance of the Jaguar. Not saying that MKI cannot do it...simply saying that F-16 has proven that it can do it.

It will still be outnumbered by the IAF. The Indian defence expenditure is $19-20 billion compared to $4-4.5 billion for Pakistan. Assuming that both spend an equal % on their respective airforces, the IAF will be in a vastly better position with respect to buying weapons and tech. How is the PAF going to counter that?

When has PAF ever tried to overcome the number's deficit? Its been the case throughout the history of PAF...IAF has always spent more than triple the amount that PAF spends yet we maintain a credible deterrance...the same logic continues...actually with the induction of JF-17, upgraded F-16s, and possibly even J-10s, the deterrance against the IAF would be the best ever that PAF could muster (surely better than what we had against the IAF in 65 and 71)....this is the logic behind PAF force upgradation...your AF is not inducting an aircraft in the class of F/A-22 or even JSF so whatever PAF will be fielding in the near future would be enough to make IAF's planning all the more difficult.

I agree. The possibility of Rafales being bought is faint(though it cannot be overruled). A better option would be the F-18E/F. An excellent AESA and AMRAAMs(Aim-120C7s or even better Ds). I believe there is an option for the EA-18G Growler too. The best part is an excellent scope for upgrades. This aircraft will be the best in the sub-continent except perhaps for the later batches of the Su-30MKI.

The best in the sub-continent is debatable as you do not know what PAF would be fielding by the time you are done inducting F/A-18s (at least 7-8 years out)...also aside from AESA, there is no capability on the F/A-18 that PAF would not be fielding with the blk-52 F-16s.

The MiG-35 is not theoretical but an MKised version of it is.

Theoretical from the point of what capabilities IAF would like in the aircraft...also its not a production version, one of the many variants put forward by the Russians....I do see IAF with this aircraft...maybe split half an half with F/A-18 but forget about Typhoon or Rafale.

The Indian armed forces are also in the midst of a massive modernisation plan. This is precisely why I quoted the defence budgets of both countries.

Yes but this is not the first time this has happened....this is a periodic phenomenon and both sides see it from time to time.

That's his job. His 'secret' letter apparently worked as the MoD isn't sitting over the MRCA proposal anymore. Its been fast-tracked as has been the production of the Su-30MKI. Bureaucratic reforms are also responsible for an overhaul of the military procurement system presently underway.

I hope the letter worked...in the meanwhile Pakistan is busy with what it needs to get done.

 

[blain2]

The D version is either out or is just about to mate.And Pakistan has been given AIM 120-C5, not even the C-7 which is the std now. And D is all bout to be in. It is supposed to have 50%in range, and a much greater no escape zone. And if IAF goes for SHornet, we will definitely get it. As regards to Meteor...nothing in its class baby. And it will start getting inducted by the beggining of the next decade. That is starting 2010. So its not that far. That will be the time that our MRCA's will start arriving in proper quantities too, and our Su-30MKI's will also be in a HUGE quantity. I dunno about R-77M.

Oh yeah , the Growler is also in sale to India. And hopefully the defense budget will be much bigger next time.

Easier for you to be an armchair air marshal and discount AIM-120C5...ask the guy who gets one of these slammers on his rear...I can assure you that he would not take it lightly. If you go for Super Hornet, things do not happen automatically with regards to munitions, you do not get the latest and the greatest....US still figures out what Capability is introduced in the region, if you guys manage to get AIM-120D then the US will also deliver the same to Pakistan, this is how things work with US policy....you had a BVR capability that is why the US allowed Pakistan to purchase AIM-120Cs in the first place.

Also with regards to your claim of "Meteor being the best and nothing else being in its class" that is all fine and dandy but so far IAF does not have it so talking about a far off future capability is of no consequence at this time.

 

[Contrarian]

yeah but that is why the US now harps about delinking its relationship b/w india and pak. Its offer of P-8, and PAC systems which till just 2 yeara back were a big no no. It is no longer the case, take the nuke deal also for example.

If we get shornet, we are defo to get AIM 120D, as also the fact that we get aesa, and it will be inducted in 4-5 years time. By the time AIM 120 will defo be there. So as regards to what capabilities are available in the region is an old stance. Now as has been seen by example. We will be sold anything we want. There is also ofer for the JSF mate, if india wants to. They were invited for the demonstration, etc. We can get it if we want. Something that Pakistan has not been invited to.

So liek i said, things are changing, as of now for the better of India and worse for Pakistan. But in this game, Pakistan has also found an ally, China, who will not sell us weapons , though we dont need them but the gesture is what counts. So you can see how the block is going.

Pakistan will have JUST got AIM 120c a small while before that. It wont buy or get the d version. Not to mention that meteor will also be available for us and python 5 which is wvr a2a missile. Again, its the best and latest from Israel. I dont think there is doubt about the munitions that we will get from teh US. Some things will be denied to Pakistan in the course mate, whether you accept it or not.

 

[Contrarian]

Easier for you to be an armchair air marshal and discount AIM-120C5...ask the guy who gets one of these slammers on his rear...I can assure you that he would not take it lightly.

LOL, my mistake dude!! You are right

 

[blain2]

yeah but that is why the US now harps about delinking its relationship b/w india and pak. Its offer of P-8, and PAC systems which till just 2 yeara back were a big no no. It is no longer the case, take the nuke deal also for example.

If we get shornet, we are defo to get AIM 120D, as also the fact that we get aesa, and it will be inducted in 4-5 years time. By the time AIM 120 will defo be there. So as regards to what capabilities are available in the region is an old stance. Now as has been seen by example. We will be sold anything we want. There is also ofer for the JSF mate, if india wants to. They were invited for the demonstration, etc. We can get it if we want. Something that Pakistan has not been invited to.

So liek i said, things are changing, as of now for the better of India and worse for Pakistan. But in this game, Pakistan has also found an ally, China, who will not sell us weapons , though we dont need them but the gesture is what counts. So you can see how the block is going.

Pakistan will have JUST got AIM 120c a small while before that. It wont buy or get the d version. Not to mention that meteor will also be available for us and python 5 which is wvr a2a missile. Again, its the best and latest from Israel. I dont think there is doubt about the munitions that we will get from teh US. Some things will be denied to Pakistan in the course mate, whether you accept it or not.

I think you are putting way too much faith into this US-India bonhomie....don't count Pakistan out of the equation just yet....JSF yeah sure! If you guys get on the JSF program, don't count on receiving any airframes prior to 2020 or so...there is a line-up of 8 countries before you guys who have partnered and invested into the technology....last time I checked you guys were trying to get GE-404s for the LCA since Kaveri continues to be a flop!....Americans want India on their side but not at the expense of Pakistan and vice versa at least now....there is too much going on in the region (for another 10 years or so at least) for them to have to play this balancing game....also Pakistan is no longer relying on China for low tech stuff either...in the next decade the quality of hardware coming from China will be a quantum leap better and like India, US has pretty much opened up the flood gates for Pakistan for acquisitions...however both Indian and Pakistani sales will be measured by the US.

Also why would Pakistan not get or buy the D version? I am sure you are sitting in on classified DoD briefings to know all this...AIM-120D like AIM-9x would first go to USAF units and then first tier allies (neither Pakistan nor India make that grade regardless of what you think). I remember justa few months ago, right before US released AIM-120Cs to Pakistan, Indian pundits like yourself were all about Nays to Pakistan...no way Pakistan is getting this or that blah blah blah...for some reason some of you are quite detached from the geo-political reality of the region...remember "mate" , Pakistan is too important for the US to simply drop it for India....at least not for the next 10 years or so.

So liek i said, things are changing, as of now for the better of India and worse for Pakistan.

How so worse for Pakistan? Please elaborate. You Indians have been wishing that for the past 30 years ever since CIA came up with their stupid projections of Pakistan becoming a failed state every 5 years....I think you all need to realize that Pakistan is here to stay and as a viable regional power in South Asia and while I can understand that you can't stand that, its the reality so get used to it instead of painting rosey pictures about yourseleves and poopooing on others.

 

[Contrarian]

I think you are putting way too much faith into this US-India bonhomie....don't count Pakistan out of the equation just yet....JSF yeah sure! If you guys get on the JSF program, don't count on receiving any airframes prior to 2020 or so...there is a line-up of 8 countries before you guys who have partnered and invested into the technology....last time I checked you guys were trying to get GE-404s for the LCA since Kaveri continues to be a flop!....Americans want India on their side but not at the expense of Pakistan and vice versa at least now....there is too much going on in the region (for another 10 years or so at least) for them to have to play this balancing game....also Pakistan is no longer relying on China for low tech stuff either...in the next decade the quality of hardware coming from China will be a quantum leap better and like India, US has pretty much opened up the flood gates for Pakistan for acquisitions...however both Indian and Pakistani sales will be measured by the US.

Also why would Pakistan not get or buy the D version? I am sure you are sitting in on classified DoD briefings to know all this...AIM-120D like AIM-9x would first go to USAF units and then first tier allies (neither Pakistan nor India make that grade regardless of what you think). I remember justa few months ago, right before US released AIM-120Cs to Pakistan, Indian pundits like yourself were all about Nays to Pakistan...no way Pakistan is getting this or that blah blah blah...for some reason some of you are quite detached from the geo-political reality of the region...remember "mate" , Pakistan is too important for the US to simply drop it for India....at least not for the next 10 years or so.

Agreed...mate

How so worse for Pakistan? Please elaborate. You Indians have been wishing that for the past 30 years ever since CIA came up with their stupid projections of Pakistan becoming a failed state every 5 years....I think you all need to realize that Pakistan is here to stay and as a viable regional power in South Asia and while I can understand that you can't stand that, its the reality so get used to it instead of painting rosey pictures about yourseleves and poopooing on others.

What i mean by that is, that before US sided totally with Pakistan. Did not give us materials, etc. Now they are giving us things that they are not selling to Pakistan. You cannot deny this. I agere, even if we buy JSF, we wont get it before 2015. But its just an example. So from that perspective, i'd say bad. I mean remember the US sent USS Enterprise to side with Pakistan. So i'd say thigns have changed a lot from those days, when Pak had unconditional support from US. It is detrimental to Pakistan from that view.

And i agree, for atleast 10 more years, there is going to be some balancing act. Only after that will they have to kind of choose.