JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 1]

[Owais]

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Give me a report that says that PAF has ordered 36 NEW PLANES and 24 OLD ONES. Dont give the MLU link. MLU is for the planes that PAF already has.

The report clearly states that PAF is going for 26 used and right now PAF have 34 F-16 A/B thats why they are buying 60 MLU kits to upgrade them to block 52 status. also "option of 18 more" doesn't mean that we will not buy these jets. the space of these 18 jets should be filled wether by F-10 or F-16 (which one will be more feasible)

 

[blain2]

Please give me a link AFAIK they are getting 18+18 planes

let me give you links to state my claims:

http://www.dailyindia.com/show/85768.php/US-to-start-providing-F-16s-to-Pak-from-Dec

and another:
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2006/07/05/2003317363

and another
http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?id=16395

And Pakistan already operates about 30 F-16's.
So its 34+36=70 F-16's.

So please i am now requesting that some1 provide links stating that about 100 F-16's.

Malay you are wrong! To be exact, PAF will have 96 F-16s by the time all is said and done if not more.

Pakistan operates 34 F-16s currently. Add another 36 to it (blk 52s) (of which 18 are on order and then we have 18 on option which will be exercised...you can discount that but that does not mean that its not going to happen...PAF has to space it out but has a requirement of two blk 52 sqns). Add another 26 blk 15s which will be provided by the US under the EDA clause. The number is 96.

Dont give the MLU link. MLU is for the planes that PAF already has.

PAF has ordered 60 MLU kits. These are for the 34 existing F-16A/Bs and the 26 EDA F-16s to be provided by the USAF from 2007-8.

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2006/Pakistan_06-10.pdf

So the number of F-16s will be 96 and possibly even more if we get additional airframes through the EDA.

This report just proves my point.

I do not think it does. You are simply going on and on about showing you links where it says the additional 18 are ordered. Well if the intention was to go for only 18 then the request would have been for 18. The fact that GoP has requested the sale of 36 Blk52s and its been approved means that the PAF plans to acquire them and for financial reasons, they did not place the order just as yet. So the intent is there to fully exercise this option. The second blk 52 sqn will be re-equipped.

IAF will obviously always have the edge in numbers, however technology wise, PAF would be able to match up very well (this is even if F/A-18s are aquired by the IAF in addition to the MKIs).

 

[vnomad]

Malay you are wrong! To be exact, PAF will have 96 F-16s by the time all is said and done if not more.

Will they be inducted by 2010?

 

[blain2]

Will they be inducted by 2010?

The blk 52s may not be all in (that order is to be filled by 2011-12 or so I believe), however the MLU F-16s (60) would all be in service by 2010 timeframe.

 

[Contrarian]

Malay you are wrong! To be exact, PAF will have 96 F-16s by the time all is said and done if not more.

Pakistan operates 34 F-16s currently. Add another 36 to it (blk 52s) (of which 18 are on order and then we have 18 on option which will be exercised...you can discount that but that does not mean that its not going to happen...PAF has to space it out but has a requirement of two blk 52 sqns). Add another 26 blk 15s which will be provided by the US under the EDA clause. The number is 96.

Thats what i am saying mate, that as of NOW, only 18 more have been ordered. There is an option to get 18 more, but that has not been exercised as of now. Now as regarding the 26 used. The option exissts, but has not been excercised. All im saying is hold you horses. Who knows that PAF may have a different design. They might wanna go for another fighter rather than more F-16's.

IAF will obviously always have the edge in numbers, however technology wise, PAF would be able to match up very well (this is even if F/A-18s are aquired by the IAF in addition to the MKIs).

Mate, the F-16's cant take the MKI's. Seriously, you would need another plane to match the MKI in a 1:1 ratio.That is why China has MASS ORDERED and is producing its Su-30M/MK/MKK. Same goes for MiG 30(MKI'zed in all likiness). It should be EVEN more potent than the Su-30MKI.

No point in talking about the F/a-18's , it can be Rafale's too. But again as of now, both are better than the F-16's that Pakistan has. To counter IAF, PAF needs planes with >1 ratio against whatever planes they intend to match. Cuz its a smaller AF, if you plan to field F-16 blk 52's against the Su-30MKI, then the ratio would be heavily skewed in favour of the IAF, which is bad for PAF. Even a 2:1 ratio would be devastating for the PAF. They NEED to have BETTER technology against the IAF to counter the numbers. As of now, the F-16's cant match the Su-30MKI. The ratio would be heavily skewed.

 

[blain2]

Thats what i am saying mate, that as of NOW, only 18 more have been ordered. There is an option to get 18 more, but that has not been exercised as of now. Now as regarding the 26 used. The option exissts, but has not been excercised. All im saying is hold you horses. Who knows that PAF may have a different design. They might wanna go for another fighter rather than more F-16's.

26 is not an option. It is a done deal along lines of the 2 F-16 blk 15s already received (the delivery brought the # to 34 in the PAF inventory). You will not see Pakistan paying for those...what Pakistan is paying for is the MLU kit. The only postponement is on the 18 remaining blk 52s.

Mate, the F-16's cant take the MKI's. Seriously, you would need another plane to match the MKI in a 1:1 ratio.That is why China has MASS ORDERED and is producing its Su-30M/MK/MKK. Same goes for MiG 30(MKI'zed in all likiness). It should be EVEN more potent than the Su-30MKI.

Ok how so can't the F-16 take on the MKI? You think that the MKI's super-duper AI radar range matters when F-16s are operating in airspace managed by PAF AEW platforms like the Erieye? In terms of weapons suite, I would put my money on the F-16s hardware any time of the day and then some more. Airforces do not fight air wars on a 1:1 basis and that has never been the PAF strategy. You have to look at what you think is important to you and you invest in basing your defences around that. MKI's advantage is in long range strike. Even in WVR combat, the JHMCS about evens out the TVC advantage. I was one of the folks who spoke with moose69 at F-16.net about the CI exercises where his sqn from Japan participated against the IAF. He told me a few things about the couple of engagements which took place b/w the MKI and the F-16s and suffice it to say, F-16 was no slouch. Its essentially about better situational awareness. Whoever has it wins it. Things will be just as hard for the MKIs as they would be for F-16s in an AEW&C managed airspace.

Mig-30?? I guess you are talking about Mig-29/35 deal with TVC. Well I have already made my point about the TVC deal....its nice but not as nice as everyone makes it out to be....I have mentioned this in the past that USAF was testing out TVC on the F-16 way back in the 80s and they saw excellent manuerverability advantages in 1 on 1 knife-fights but when the odds were 2:1 stacked against the TVC equipped aircraft then the advantage was negated. Secondly, this was in the days before High Off-Boresight WVRAAMs were on the market. With missiles like AIM-9x, Python-5, IRIS-T etc. etc., everyone dies at the same rate (unless one has better and earlier situational awareness). Pakistan will be looking at a HOBS solution pretty soon as the JHMCS has been ordered to line that up. So all in all, MKIs are all nice and fine, but F-16s again will prove to be formidable foes and this is something that PAF swears by (I guess not much different than what IAF thinks of its M2Ks).

No point in talking about the F/a-18's , it can be Rafale's too. But again as of now, both are better than the F-16's that Pakistan has. To counter IAF, PAF needs planes with >1 ratio against whatever planes they intend to match. Cuz its a smaller AF, if you plan to field F-16 blk 52's against the Su-30MKI, then the ratio would be heavily skewed in favour of the IAF, which is bad for PAF. Even a 2:1 ratio would be devastating for the PAF. They NEED to have BETTER technology against the IAF to counter the numbers. As of now, the F-16's cant match the Su-30MKI. The ratio would be heavily skewed.

It can be Rafale or EF-2k for that matter, but the bottom line is these aircraft are not cheap! For India to afford 125-200 aircraft, that is more money than so far what has been quoted for the upcoming tender. F/A-18 is not neccessarily better than the F-16. It depends on which flight profile you are talking about. F-16 does a lot of things better than the F/A-18. There is an entire thread on this at F-16.net if you care to read it (with input from many USN/USAF pilots). Rafale is definetly a good plane and something that PAF would have to cater to possibly, however I just do not buy your claim (its just that, a claim), that F-16 is no match for the MKI. PAF on the defensive can do some serious damage to IAF with MLU and blk 52 F-16s.

For us the idea is to hold up the deterrance and the F-16s with AIM-120s and JF-17s with SD-10 would be able to do that very well. Let me put it this way, there is not a single thing in the MKI that totally outclasses PAF F-16s....we do have or are working on a counter to pretty much everything that IAF has right now.

 

[Contrarian]

well mate, as regards to F-16 and MKI, the MKI outclassess the F-16 in every aspect, be it anouverability, BVR, radar, whatever. Its in a different league. F-16 blk 52 is a 4th gen a/c, whereas Su-30 MKI is a 4.5 gen a/c. If you want i can show you the studies of the RAF that the ratio of a typhoon to a baseline Su-30 was 4:1, and for rafale it was 1:1. Pakistan needs someting else than F-16's to effectively counter the MKI's. Now by means, does this imply that the F-16 will be a pushover. It will most certainly be not in a defensive scenario. But in a BVR engagements, IAF is getting more and more missiles like the python from israel, not to mention that if we get the Rafale, we can get Meteor. And we have a history of integrating western stuff with eastern.

Thus, the F-16 though not comparable with the Su-30MKI, can certainly hold its fort in a defensive scenario. Though that is the only plane that will be able to do it unless PAF acquires new planes. The JF-17 certainly cannot.

The MRCA tender is not what it was initially intended to be mate. It was thought out to fill the gap b/w the Su-30MKI and the LCA. That is no longer the case. Now, its a very political thing, with extreme technology being bought. It is no longer meant to be inferior to teh Su-30MKI. In all probability the MiG 35(yeah, i wrote it wrong above ) will be customised for India, with avionics and other missiles being sourced from France, Israel and other countries in it. So its going to be BETTER than the Su-30MKI. The budget has also been raised accordingly.
The deal has been split, b/w Mig 35 and another. So if its rafale or F-18, its gonna be 50 or less of the total numbers. There are advantages of both. We get F-18, we get AESA radar in it. Its an excellent AtoG attack plane. It can VERY seriously replace the aeging Jaguar and Mig 27 planes. This will make the IAF far better, those planes are old now. The rafale will give us Meteor. And prolyl AESA at a future date. Money is no longer the issue here. For political considerations, the deal HAS to be split. Both these planes can be used by the Navy. F-18 is a proven a/c plane, whereas N-Rafale is also considered good.

By the time, PAF gets something that is AT PAR with teh Su-30MKI, IAF will get something newer. Take this MiG 35 for example, Hoped to be better than the Su-30MKI. It will come soon, but the PAF still does not have sometihng at equal level to the MKI.

 

[joey]

See the only thing i'll say about MKI is "its radar is best in the subcontinent".
not even certain AESA can match it but it has higher RCS.

 

[joey]

1. Not being fully FBW is not a bad thing. Cost goes down and survivability actually increases. The JF-17 has much better manoeuvrability as it still adopts longitudinal dualplex FBW system and conventional mechanical operation for transverse control. So overall not a bad deal for an aircraft with all the bells and whistles and still a few bucks under the $20 million number.

2. The JF-17 will carry an external jamming pod just like the current Pakistani F-16s. The question will be which one?

3) HMD/S is a configuration that will be available with the JF-17.
Here is what the PAC is envisioning in terms of JF-17 capabilities:

# Dual redundant two mission computers
# Dual redundant 1553 Mux bus architecture
# Multimode Pulse Doppler Radar with high power air-cooled transmitter and capable of tracking multiple targets with prioritized firing
# Ring laser gyro inertial navigation system tied with GPS
# Smart head up display with up front control panel. HUD minimum total Field of View is 25 degrees
# Color video recording camera and video recorder (for SMFCDs)
# Data Transfer Unit with digital map function
# HOTAS
# Three smart multi function color displays
# Air Data Computer
# R/Altimeter
# IFF Interrogator/Transponder
# ACMI
# Standard Armament Interface Unit
# Remote Interface Box
# BVR Datalink
# V / UHF Communication System (Qty 02)
# Comm Datalink
# All associated antennas
# Warnings Computer
# ILS
# TACAN
# RWR
# MAWS
# CFD
# Other essential equipment like

* Day/ night laser designator pod
* Self Protection Jammer
* IRST
* FLIR
* NVGs
* Helmet Mounted Sight/Display

http://www.pac.org.pk/amfsite-final/...fications.html

This as hydraulic mechanism, well you can say its cost effective and things but true 4th gen is always full FBW.
do you know F16 is triplex FBW while LCA is quadruplex.

I said the three things that are missing, HMCS is missing.
and does it has a underwing pod to carry out EW/LDP operations?

one more thing gimme details about its radar please.
its radar that matters.

thanks, i'll try to find more anyways its a cost-effective and great fighter.

but no its not multirole as your saying
it canont intercept
cannot do heavy ground attack.
doesnt has a superior radar as gripen to act as air superioty BVR platform
so a point defence.

but it all defence on how PAF uses it.
none the less its a very very good fighter.

 

[vnomad]

one more thing gimme details about its radar please.
its radar that matters.

The Chinese FC-1s will come with a Israeli Elta-2032 probably while the Pakistani ones will definitely have an Italian FIAR Grifo S-7.

 

[Owais]

The Chinese JF-17s will come with a Israeli Elta-2032 probably while the Pakistani ones will definitely have an Italian FIAR Grifo S-7.

Pakistani JF-17s was supposed to equip with an Italian FIAR Grifo S-7 but china offers a modified varant of KLJ-10 (the same radar used in J-10). having A to A detection of 125+ Km. it had some key advantages over the Italian one, such as compatibility with Chinese weapon systems.
It can handle 40+ targets, tracking 10 of them and guiding 2 BVR missiles to attack 2 of them at the same time .

 

[vnomad]

Pakistani JF-17s was supposed to equip with an Italian FIAR Grifo S-7 but china offers a modified varant of KLJ-10 (the same radar used in J-10). having A to A detection of 125+ Km. it had some key advantages over the Italian one, such as compatibility with Chinese weapon systems.
It can handle 40+ targets, tracking 10 of them and guiding 2 BVR missiles to attack 2 of them at the same time .

This is news to me. Has it been finalised? Could you post some links please.
Thanks
V

 

[Owais]

This is news to me. Has it been finalised? Could you post some links please.
Thanks
V

well I find that on a chinese website but Information availible on pakistani sites is outdated.
here is a link of a pakistani site.

A Chinese Radar has been selected for the initial batch of JF-17s and FC-1s. Pakistan may or may not select a Radar from Italy or France. FC-1s are likely to have Chinese Radars, but their is a competition from Russia and Israel.

http://www.jf-17.com/avionics.htm

 

[blain2]

This as hydraulic mechanism, well you can say its cost effective and things but true 4th gen is always full FBW.
do you know F16 is triplex FBW while LCA is quadruplex.

I said the three things that are missing, HMCS is missing.
and does it has a underwing pod to carry out EW/LDP operations?

one more thing gimme details about its radar please.
its radar that matters.

thanks, i'll try to find more anyways its a cost-effective and great fighter.

but no its not multirole as your saying
it canont intercept
cannot do heavy ground attack.
doesnt has a superior radar as gripen to act as air superioty BVR platform
so a point defence.

but it all defence on how PAF uses it.
none the less its a very very good fighter.

Read my post again. I don't want to repeat what I wrote.

I said the three things that are missing, HMCS is missing.

HMS/D is in the works for the JF-17. Cueing/Slaving the weapon systems is part of this deal. Its mentioned in the PAC link.

EW is also listed the same list (will people start reading please?)

but no its not multirole as your saying
it canont intercept
cannot do heavy ground attack.
doesnt has a superior radar as gripen to act as air superioty BVR platform
so a point defence.

Ok if you say so....(I suggest you do a bit more reading). Do you even understand what a point defence fighter is and what a multirole aircraft is?? ( From what you have written, you seem to lack the understanding for both) The aircraft will have SD-10 with a range of 70km and it cannot intercept? (nice one! )

Heavy ground attack...hmm ok the aircraft is slated to carry all of the PGMs for A2G role in the PAF inventory and our friend here says that it cannot do heavy attack...."heavy" now what the hell is that? You are either capable of delivering a credible capability or you are not. JF-17 is quite capable. Don't equate ordnance/payload to ground attack capability. See the payload matrix at the bottom of the PAC page to find out what the JF-17 is capable of delivering.

Superior radar argument is fairly weak especially when we are talking about induction of OTH detection capability (which both PAF and IAF will have). So in talking with many, many people over the past few years, having an extended-range radar like the BARS is not a must have capability. Your MKIs would be detected way far out by Pakistani GCI based network and the AEW capability for it to matter much. For JF-17, even a Radar like Grifo S7 or KLJ-10 provide more than enough range for its MRAAM to be guided out to its max. range.

No matter how silly of an argument you make, JF-17 is a multi-role aircraft...this aircraft is not in the class of a point defence fighter like a Mig-21/F-7 etc. BTW point defence fighter is one which is limited to a specific airspace due to its limitation of range and weapons payload (JF-17 is not limited in either way due to a decent range and the IFR capability which it will have, plus having the capability to carry the entire range of munitions capability that current PAF F-16s posses).

 

[blain2]

well mate, as regards to F-16 and MKI, the MKI outclassess the F-16 in every aspect, be it anouverability, BVR, radar, whatever. Its in a different league. F-16 blk 52 is a 4th gen a/c, whereas Su-30 MKI is a 4.5 gen a/c. If you want i can show you the studies of the RAF that the ratio of a typhoon to a baseline Su-30 was 4:1, and for rafale it was 1:1.

Sure for an Indian, the MKI is God's gift to aviation..... The funny thing is that you do not post anything specific....how is the BVR better than F-16s? How is the radar better (range is not the only thing that matters and if you say that it is one of the most important things then see my point about OTH detection capability that PAF will be fielding...it negates this advantage greatly).

The study that you are talking about has been discussed for the last two years on various forums and suffice it to say, it was a simulation based on theoretical capabilities of the aircraft without any other support like the AEW managed airspace etc etc.. From what I can recall, the study did not even consider HMCS mated to HOBS WVRAAM solutions in the scenarios. So there are very many loopholes...the biggest obviously being that it was a theoretical simulation lacking many of the other key factors that in reality would be involved in an air campaign.

Pakistan needs someting else than F-16's to effectively counter the MKI's. Now by means, does this imply that the F-16 will be a pushover. It will most certainly be not in a defensive scenario. But in a BVR engagements, IAF is getting more and more missiles like the python from israel, not to mention that if we get the Rafale, we can get Meteor. And we have a history of integrating western stuff with eastern.

Oh man I did not realize what I was dealing with here...my friend, dear mate, first figure out what weapons are used for what....python is a SRAAM/WVRAAM and not a BVR weapon. PAF has ordered 500 AIM-120s....that number is besides the many hundreds of SD-10s that it will be buying from China so don't assume that IAF has supremacy on the BVR side....on the WVR side, at least at IDEAS2006, there were quite a few HOBS WVRAAMs on display so PAF is not short of options even if it does not go for AIM-9x (which I can pretty much guarantee is what PAF will be getting for the F-16s at least).

Your history on integrating western weapons or avionics cannot be any greater than ours...both countries do it so I do not see your point in that.

Thus, the F-16 though not comparable with the Su-30MKI, can certainly hold its fort in a defensive scenario. Though that is the only plane that will be able to do it unless PAF acquires new planes. The JF-17 certainly cannot.

I know one thing...this is my last post on this topic if this is the level of discussion we are to have....F-16 is not comparable to MKI in what sense I ask you again? I have made a valid argument about the radar range, in terms of BVR capability, there has yet to be a better proven BVR missile than the AIM-120 which PAF is getting. The F-16 does a whole lot of things better than any other aircraft in the USAF service including the F-15...so not sure if I buy your arguments based on theoretical claims of MKI's superiority....in WVR, the JHCMS/AIM-9x combo would tear up the MKI as it would any other aircraft...(the F-16 is subject to same vulnerabilities as well).

On the JF-17 issue, the aircraft is meant to replace older F-7s, Mirages and A-5s...once its operational, its a matter of how they are employed...if done effectively, then this aircraft would pose a serious threat to all of the IAF, and MKI would not be an exception. The BVR capability on the MKI (AA-12) is approx. in the same range class as the AIM-120 so not sure whay there is so much hype about this issue.

The MRCA tender is not what it was initially intended to be mate. It was thought out to fill the gap b/w the Su-30MKI and the LCA. That is no longer the case. Now, its a very political thing, with extreme technology being bought. It is no longer meant to be inferior to teh Su-30MKI. In all probability the MiG 35(yeah, i wrote it wrong above ) will be customised for India, with avionics and other missiles being sourced from France, Israel and other countries in it. So its going to be BETTER than the Su-30MKI. The budget has also been raised accordingly.
The deal has been split, b/w Mig 35 and another. So if its rafale or F-18, its gonna be 50 or less of the total numbers. There are advantages of both. We get F-18, we get AESA radar in it. Its an excellent AtoG attack plane. It can VERY seriously replace the aeging Jaguar and Mig 27 planes. This will make the IAF far better, those planes are old now. The rafale will give us Meteor. And prolyl AESA at a future date. Money is no longer the issue here. For political considerations, the deal HAS to be split. Both these planes can be used by the Navy. F-18 is a proven a/c plane, whereas N-Rafale is also considered good.

I am already aware of the fact that this will probably be split or weigh in on the side of the Russian offer...in either case, it does not change the baseline which is that from a deterrance point of view, PAF will be in a very good shape having got rid of all short-legged platforms like the F-7, Mirages etc. and flying an all-BVR capable fleet. I have my own thoughts about your claims about the Rafale etc....but I can guarantee IAF is not buying the Rafale. You can go buy the Meteor which again is not something out of this world...the AIM-120 versions being one of the best in the world match up fairly well.

Mig-35 is still a theoretical offering (as was the MKI at one point), when it is delivered, PAF would already be inducting J-10s and potentially some other platform...the entire paragraph above is actually a future projection so who knows.

By the time, PAF gets something that is AT PAR with teh Su-30MKI, IAF will get something newer. Take this MiG 35 for example, Hoped to be better than the Su-30MKI. It will come soon, but the PAF still does not have sometihng at equal level to the MKI.

PAF already is working on a force enhancement project that takes it beyond countering the capabilities of a single platform like the MKI....the modernization program undertaken by the PAF over the next few years will put a more robust deterrance against the IAF than ever...regardless of the induction of Mig-35 and F/A-18. Keep in mind that I am not the one who was voicing concern about the modernization of the PAF, it was your own air chief.