JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 1]

[Munir]

Reuters states that Pakistan will get around 200 to 300 JF-17 aircrafts for its air force, and it will be available to take orders from other countries who might be interested in JF-17.

The production rate will be 20-25 per year after 2008.

http://in.today.reuters.com/news/ne...R_RTRJONC_0_India-277396-1.xml&archived=False

That is Reuters India...

 

[Contrarian]

I also met a retired AVM ( retired in 90's) who had the same opinion and said that JF-17, was essentailly a 3.5 generation aircraft. I mentioned this in another forum, but every one discounted it thinking that a retired AVM was out of the loop. No the same idea by the Chief of Pak Aernonautical Complex! makes me worried. Are we gloating over a hardware which being medium technology is below par in modern environment?

if it is, then it would make perfect sense...a plane being that cheap would mean medium technology(the term has been used in most of the media reports as well), and lots and lots in numbers. Its a numbers game, the JF-17 would be to overwhelm the skies with a decent plane. I believe that is why Pakistan wants >200 of these birds.


''Quantity has a Quality of its own''

Just read Neo's post from IDEAS exhibition i think it was in the other section, here is one part:

During the test flight, the plane demonstrated its outstanding mobility, and good interception and ground attack capability. With its advanced design and state-of-the-art manufacturing technology, the JF-17 has the combat capability of a third-generation fighter plane and is on par with the world’s most advanced light fighter aircraft.

With its small size and relatively low cost, the plane is suitable for modern combat operations and ideal for sales to developing countries that cannot afford to pay the much higher prices of western jet fighters in the same category.

While the JF-17 may not be a match for fourth- and fifth-generation western fighter aircraft, it is more than a match for the Indian Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which is expected to form the backbone of the Indian air force in future.

The JF-17 has some features like advanced avionics and cost effectiveness that give it an edge over the LCA. From Pakistan’s perspective, this will make the JF-17 an attractive option to replace its ageing fleet of Mirages, F-7s and A-5s.

It was meant to tackle the LCA effectively, which is gonna be inducted in the IAF.

 

[vnomad]

The backbone of the IAF will be the Su-30MKI. 150+ are expected to be in service by 2015. The LCA will hopefully receive a Israeli Elta 2052 AESA and a GE- 404 engine. It should be more than a match for the JF-17 with those specifications. More expensive too.

 

[Munir]

The backbone of the IAF will be the Su-30MKI. 150+ are expected to be in service by 2015. The LCA will hopefully receive a Israeli Elta 2052 AESA and a GE- 404 engine. It should be more than a match for the JF-17 with those specifications. More expensive too.

MKI is not going to be the backbone but your advanced fighter. At the moment it is mig21 (Bis and Bison) and it will be MRCA... Those new Mig29's... And hopefully LCA.

JF-17 and MKI comparisation does not make any sense neither the superiority complex of the MKI. Since JF17 is defending, it has interlionks and AWACS as bankground, and it will definately have HMS and highly agile WVR and decent BVR, add to that much easier pilot-machine interface we bneed to see whether your big bozo will win with hands down...

 

[araz]

Guys.
Instead of chest thumping can we not logically decide this debate of which generation Thunder belongs to. I think over the months enough has come out in the press about what capabilities it will have. I do not think you could quite call it 3rd generation, more like 4th Generation. However if we can decide what capabilities can result in a fighter being called 3rd or 4th Generation, it will resolve this debate. Otherwise we can sit here till kingdom come and hurl insults at each other without any logical answer.
Wa Salam
Araz

 

[Contrarian]

MKI is not going to be the backbone but your advanced fighter. At the moment it is mig21 (Bis and Bison) and it will be MRCA... Those new Mig29's... And hopefully LCA.

JF-17 and MKI comparisation does not make any sense neither the superiority complex of the MKI. Since JF17 is defending, it has interlionks and AWACS as bankground, and it will definately have HMS and highly agile WVR and decent BVR, add to that much easier pilot-machine interface we bneed to see whether your big bozo will win with hands down...

Well, since the MKI will have the maximum numbers in IAF inventory by 2015, its safe to say that it will be the backbone, the advanced heavy fighter is being kept as the backbone rather than a light fighter. IAF planes too will operate with an AWACS mate, it is nothing big. And all planes have interlinks, your stating that as though its gonna be a huge thing. THe Phalcon has a much greater range than the erieye for this purpose, as the erieye is gonna be used in defensive area, it needs a smaller range, but the Phalcon is gonna be operated from Indian airspace to monitor Pak airspace, so it needs greater range.



The Mig21's and bisons will be completely phased out by 2012 at max. So they are surely gone for good. The other fighters will be the MRCA, the Mirages upgraded to 2000-5 std. The mig 29's are being upgraded to SMT standard, and the new Mig 29K's ordered are not for the IAF, the'r for teh Navy. So they dont count.

The MRCA is gonna be a Mig 35 + Rafale or F/A 18E/F
The Mig 35, a highly capable plane in itself, is further gonna be MKI'zed too, so in all likeliness its gonna be better than the Su-30MKI.

Every1 knows the capability of Rafale and F/A-18 E/F.

I doubt that the LCA will ever be inducted in the IAF, it will be called as a tech demonstrator. The deadline given for LCA is 2010. by that time, the MRCA deal would be way thru and inductions started. And LCA wont be inducted after that, or if shoved by DRDO , then in very token numbers and not more than 100 at teh very max. I might be wrong, this is just my opinion.

The next plane would be the Gen 5 made with Russia, either T-50 or one with MiG corp.


As regarding to the gen. designation of JF-17, i would think it is a gen 3.5 plane, with some additional capabilities of a 4th gen. An effective counter for the LCA, for which is was/is primarily designed, which is also in the same range.
Saying it is a true 4th gen would be a bit of an overstatement. Just adding AWACS and interlinks doesnt change the generation of the a/c. A generation of an a/c is defined by its own capabilities and not the supporting elements.

 

[vnomad]

MKI is not going to be the backbone but your advanced fighter. At the moment it is mig21 (Bis and Bison) and it will be MRCA...

The MKI will be the single most numerous fighter in the IAF inventory so it makes sense to say that it'll be the backbone.

Since JF17 is defending, it has interlionks and AWACS as bankground,

The MKI has interlinks too and will have an AWACS backing it up too. It also functions as a mini-AWACS itself.

and it will definately have HMS and highly agile WVR and decent BVR,

The MKI has a HMS too. Its the most agile production aircraft in Asia and one of the best in the world. The Bars PESA is a fabulous radar and gives the MKI an excellent BVR capability.

add to that much easier pilot-machine interface we bneed to see whether your big bozo will win with hands down...

MKI has a crew of two which means the pilot workload is much lower than a one man aircraft.

And hopefully LCA.

The LCA pre-production models have an AESA. The Indian pulse doppler radar hasn't matured in all modes so the DRDO will be seriously considering making the AESA a permanent feature.

Those new Mig29's...

... are for the navy.

 

[Munir]

I rather look at what India has right now and not in 2015.

At the moment it has a few MKI. Large numbers of Bis and Bison. Lots of Mig23/27. Some Mig29 (oldest version) and Mirage 200H (old version even when having BVR).

Pakistan has lots of Mirages3/5. Major part is F7p and PG. A few f16 and Fantans. If you talk about 2010 (and not 2015) then it will have lots of BVR/HMS/Interlinked/IFR JF17's. Around 100 F16 with block 52 capabilities and probable around 38 J10's. All planes will have interlinks, HMS and decent BVR. Add to that A130 and Il76 tankers. Erieye and atleast one Chinese AWACS version.

I don't mind comparing but if you are realistic then take either both sides now or both sides in 2010... And it needs to be seen when and if MKI will be the best fighter in the region. It is big and it is impressive but not Shiva.

 

[Contrarian]

I rather look at what India has right now and not in 2015.

At the moment it has a few MKI. Large numbers of Bis and Bison. Lots of Mig23/27. Some Mig29 (oldest version) and Mirage 200H (old version even when having BVR).

Pakistan has lots of Mirages3/5. Major part is F7p and PG. A few f16 and Fantans. If you talk about 2010 (and not 2015) then it will have lots of BVR/HMS/Interlinked/IFR JF17's. Around 100 F16 with block 52 capabilities and probable around 38 J10's. All planes will have interlinks, HMS and decent BVR. Add to that A130 and Il76 tankers. Erieye and atleast one Chinese AWACS version.

The stated capacity is 7-8 JF-17 per year, how will PAF have loads of JF-17 by 2010, its only roughly 3 years from now??

Also, how come PAF will have 100 F-16's? How many F-16's does Pak have right now? and how many has it bought from the US...i dont mean the option of buying more, how many has it actively bought?
Also the MLU program has not been signed with teh US as of yet. We'r talking about the deals that have already been signed then.

Aagain, there was not been any deal regarding J-10, its speculation, no deal has been signed, and there is no tentative idea as to when it will be signed. As of now, the PAF is focussing on JF-17.

Same goes for Il-76(India already operates it) and HMS(india has it in MiG i think). They are not signed deals neither a tentative idea about when.

The MiG 29 has already been announced that it will go into upgrades to SMT stf i think. It has been been announced by HAL.

Mate, having interlinks is no big thing, if you are getting an AWACS, then you have to have interlinks, otherwise its useless!!, IAF already has it since long back. Getting a decent BVR is good, and AWACS is good, but thats about it.

And you forget, by that time, we too will have AWACS!

I don't mind comparing but if you are realistic then take either both sides now or both sides in 2010... And it needs to be seen when and if MKI will be the best fighter in the region. It is big and it is impressive but not Shiva.

Well...forget now or later, lets talk either about what it has now, or what it has signed or is just about to be signed(not preferable).

About MKI, there is no way to test it without a war. So lets stick to the stated capabilities. Its big and its bad, no point talking bad about a plane that the world thinks is first class. Agreed it is in small numbers now, but by 2010, if you talk about it we'l have roughly 130-140 of these babies. As you know the HAL has incurred extra expenditure so that the induction of these can be speeded up. They gave the deal to Russia also. The new deadline to induct 190 MKI's is now 2012!!, not 2014-15. So you can imagine, by 2010 also, we'l have decent numbers. Nothing below Rafales or F/A-18 E/F will be able to defeat/match the MKI. Obviously no point talking bout Typhoons, and others, they are in a diff league.

And What is shiva??

 

[vnomad]

I rather look at what India has right now and not in 2015.

But, you're disqualifying the JF-17 yaar.

At the moment it has a few MKI. Large numbers of Bis and Bison. Lots of Mig23/27. Some Mig29 (oldest version) and Mirage 200H (old version even when having BVR).

The few MKI are 50+. Three squadrons and counting. The Bisons are significantly upgraded. I'd say that they are superior(and more numerous) to the F-7PG thanks to Israeli and French avionics. Its BVR capable unlike the F-7. The MiG 29s are all in the process of being upgraded to SMT standards(I don't know the number that have been already upgraded). The Mirage 2000H is not as good as the Mirage-2000-5 but its still one of the most capable aircrafts in the sub-continent and easily superior to the Mirage III/V.

Pakistan has lots of Mirages3/5. Major part is F7p and PG. A few f16 and Fantans. If you talk about 2010 (and not 2015) then it will have lots of BVR/HMS/Interlinked/IFR JF17's. Around 100 F16 with block 52 capabilities and probable around 38 J10's. All planes will have interlinks, HMS and decent BVR. Add to that A130 and Il76 tankers. Erieye and atleast one Chinese AWACS version.

How many JF-17s will Pakistan have by 2010? 45 at best is my guess. 100 f-16s by 2010 is pretty far-fetched. 75 would be a more realistic number. It'll take time to induct the newer ones.
India is also likely to have some 40 Mirage 2000-5s by 2010. MKIs will number 100+ at the very least. Induction of the MiG35 will also be in progress along with F-18E/F (probably).

I don't mind comparing but if you are realistic then take either both sides now or both sides in 2010... And it needs to be seen when and if MKI will be the best fighter in the region.

For now it is the best fighter in the region. Bear in mind that the MKI will also come in three batches, each better than the last.

 

[Munir]

As usal overestimating India and underestimating Pakistan.

It is reported that Pakistan will build 25 JF17 a year. It is reported that last F16 to PAF will be 2010. At the same time you will get double speed MKI and surely F18... Almost pathetic. You guys should read the article of arrogance by Indian posters... You all just contribure to that. You all are dreaming of superiority while it is just a wetdream.

I am not a mod here but sometimes one should understand that quatity of pathetic Indian posts are not increasing the qulaity of this forum.

 

[vnomad]

As usal overestimating India and underestimating Pakistan.

It is reported that Pakistan will build 25 JF17 a year. It is reported that last F16 to PAF will be 2010. At the same time you will get double speed MKI and surely F18... Almost pathetic. You guys should read the article of arrogance by Indian posters... You all just contribure to that. You all are dreaming of superiority while it is just a wetdream.

I am not a mod here but sometimes one should understand that quatity of pathetic Indian posts are not increasing the qulaity of this forum.

Everything that you've stated could have been said politely without the 'pathetic' tags. You were the one who started the IAF vs PAF argument in response to my simple statement that the MKI was going to be the backbone of the IAF(which incidently you haven't disproved).

If you indeed have a link that says the PAF will receive 100 F-16s by 2010 do post it and I will acknowledge I was wrong. My ego doesn't get into the fray. This is a great site because everyone's views are respected here.

Back to your points -

Perhaps the JF-17 will be manufactured at the rate of 25 a year. I'd like it if you post a link too and also give the date when production starts.

The MKI production has been fast-tracked and 100+ will be in service by 2010.
The F-18E/F is a front-runner for the MRCA. Is it a wet dream? I'm sure Boeing will disagree. Incidently, you're underestimating the MiG 35. The MiG 35 will be modified to be as good as the present MKI maybe receive an Israeli AESA. It is not a fancy MiG 29.

 

[blain2]

Perhaps the JF-17 will be manufactured at the rate of 25 a year. I'd like it if you post a link too and also give the date when production starts.

The MKI production has been fast-tracked and 100+ will be in service by 2010.
The F-18E/F is a front-runner for the MRCA. Incidently, you're underestimating the MiG 35. The MiG 35 will be modified to be as good as the present MKI maybe receive an Israeli AESA. It is not a fancy MiG 29.
Call it wet dreaming if you want but six years back the Su-30 MKI was dismissed as a wet dream too.

http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jd...1127_1_n.shtml
PAF prepares for JF-17s in 2007

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will take delivery of the first eight of 150 new JF-17 (FC-1) fighter aircraft built with Chinese co-operation in 2007 and hopes to have enough experience of flying the aircraft to consider marketing it for overseas customers by 2008, the chief of the Pakistan Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir -Mehmood Ahmed, has told Jane's.

The remarks from Pakistan's air force chief came in an interview during the country's largest biannual defence export exhibition, held in Karachi from 21-24 November: an event used by Pakistani officials to promote the JF-17.

ACM Ahmed said, beyond the planned induction of the 150 JF-17 aircraft by 2015, the PAF may have to approach the Pakistani government for clearance to buy more aircraft as it prepares to replace some of its ageing fighter fleet, such as the A-5s and the A-7s and French Mirage jets.


**************
Starting in 07, we will have a batch of 8, after that until 2015, the number coming off the PAC lines would be approx. 20 per year. The Chinese can ramp up some production too.

 

[vnomad]

In 2007 a batch of 8 will be inducted. Which month? How many others will be inducted in 2007? By 2010 then Pakistan should have 8+20+20 = 48 aircraft. I had said Pakistan will have 45. Not much of a difference.

 

[Iceman2]

i think u don't no that CAC is also filling PAF's order so
in 2007 = 8 delivered
in 2008 = pac 25+ 25 (cac)
in 2009 = pac 25+ 25 (cac)
in 2010 = pac 25+ 25 (cac)
now if u know maths correctly then : 158

and if u think that MIG-35 will be great and will be acquired in 2010 than it could possibly be also a rumor i hear indians are rumos mongerers if u find it offensive then i also find ur posts offensive always u ppl keep on claiming we can do this or that?????? but no result but we let our results speak.....

not to speak of comparing mig-35 with any other aircraft in pak's inventory even u ppl haven't signed a contract for it and u keeep on jabering like old women.... u ppl have always been day dreamer...>> THE BOTTOM LINE IS U R NO WAY NEAR US !
mods i m sorry if i broke any rule of this forum but i cannot pocket any insult of pakistan on our forum by these ppl!!!!!!!!