JF-17 Nose Redesign Feasibility?

[gambit]

Could you explain how that is applicable here (it is only true with jf-17 because it needs to redirect incoming air to the jet engine but not the other planes IMHO):

Infact the nose probably can never have the same surface area as the anywhere else along the fuselage. What you are saying is basically a cylinder, if you add a cone on top for piercing thru air, then you have something like a marker shaped Agni 3. The idea in a missile must be to create minimum turbulence while it is flying in the atmosphere and has very little need for maneuvering. Not sure how the same principle applies to a/c, if what you say was true there would be no canards esp. and other control surfaces to steer the plane.

Try this source...

Aerospaceweb.org | Ask Us - Area Rule and Transonic Flight

What Whitcomb discovered was that the addition of wings to the basic cylinder produced twice as much drag as the cylinder alone. He also found that drag rose by the same amount if a simple bulge were added to the cylinder, the bulge being of equivalent volume as the wings. However, if he reduced the cross-sectional area of the fuselage over the region were the wings were attached, shown as body "D," the total drag was about the same as that of the cylinder alone.

The conclusion of this research was that shaping the vehicle to create a smooth cross-sectional area distribution from the nose to the tail could drastically reduce the drag on an aircraft. The area rule tells us that the volume of the body should be reduced in the presence of a wing, tail surface, or other projection so that there are no discontinuities in the cross-sectional area distribution of the vehicle shape.

The 'nose' section of any aircraft include the cockpit area and for some even the canards, if so equipped. That mean it is not possible to change radome shape and dimension without a redesign of the 'nose' section and STILL maintain the original flight characteristics.

 

[araz]

I have been constantly digging around for more information on radar sizes, and found some new information.
I am updating the radar specs for a few more aircraft.

I can be wrong about some of these specs, so please contribute to make it as fool-proof as possible.

1. JF17 (prototype 1)--------600mm ... 282,745 mm2 (assuming circular Radome)
2. *JF17 production-----------664mm ... 346,278 mm2 (assuming circular Radome)
3. Mirage 2000--------------674mm ... 356,787 mm2 (assuming circular Radome)
4. *F16------------------------740x480 ... 278,973 mm2 (elliptical Radome, Unconfirmed)
5. Su30----------------------~1000mm . 785,397 mm2 (assuming circular Radome)
6. F15------------------------~1000mm . 785,397 mm2 (assuming similar to Su30)
7. *Rafale--------------------550mm ... 237,582 mm2 (circular Radar Antenna)
8. *Mig35--------------------700mm ... 384,845 mm2 (Zhuk-AE/FGA35 Antenna)
9. *F18-----------------------700mm ... 384,845 mm2 (Unconfirmed if Radome or antenna)
10. *Eurofighter--------------~750mm ... 441,786 mm2 (Unconfirmed speculation)
11. *LCA----------------------650mm ... 331,830 mm2 (Circular Antenna, Radome Unknown, but will be bigger)
12 *Grippen-------------------~600mm ... 282,745 mm2 (PS-05/A Antenna, Radome will be bigger)

Some updated figures may be wrong ... since i tried my best to find at-least 3 sources to site my claims ... found less than that for some info i have posted above. So forgive me for any mistakes.

Regards,
Sapper

Sapper
The only addition is GripenNG which has a nose of around 700mm, so it canaccomodate Vixen 1000.
regards
Araz

 

[Zulfiqar]

If this same JF-17 had been made by west, its cost would have been 35+M$s, but as on this side of the border or world, costs are much down, why is US and other countries out souring their things to India, China, Pakistan and other countries, to lower costs, as in west, they pay in dollars, while on this side of the border, it costs much much less due to the currency exchange thingy.

Another important thing to note is that since JF-17 is manufactured by state owned organizations like PAC and Chengdu(and in future PAC will manufacture more of them locally) so the profit margin is lower as compared to western companies like lockheed martin e.t.c. This is one of the main reasons due to which the price of JF-17 is low.

 

[Super Falcon]

mirage loooking ugly sir better let it be like it

 

[khanasifm]

Avionica demonstrated to Kanwa more details of GRIFO-S7. The radar’s transmitter output power has been increased to 500W, and it uses two types of antenna, with diameters of 600mm and 800mm respectively. The 600mm antennae’s detect range is 80km, while the search range of the 800mm antennae is more than 100km. What is being promoted to Pakistan is the 600mm antenna whose weight is 110kg. Galileo Avionica has conducted a very in-depth study of FC1. Galileo Avionica claims that they can provide 800mm GRIFO-S7 radar for FC1, but this may mean the location of the radar on board will have to be moved 400mm backward. And as a consequence, the whole electronic system will also have to be moved 400mm backwards. Galileo Avionica is capable of conducting such upgrading, and yet the total cost will increase. The GRIFO-S7 fitted with these two types of antenna is capable of tracking 16 targets in the air and attack 6 of them simultaneously. It adopts two-channel receiver data processing system. The MTBF for GRIFO-S7 is 220 hours. Galileo Avionica stresses that GRIFO-S7 is compatible with the SD10 active radar guided AAM weapon control software. GRIFO-S7 has 25 different air-to-air and air-to-surface operation modes.

Kanwa was informed that the French THALES had stepped up their effort to bid for the radar system used on FC1. THALES introduced RC400 to the parties involved and had also invited Pakistan to conduct air test of the system on Falcon 20 this year. RC400 has a weight of 120kg, output power 400W. It adopts mechanical scanning. THALES says the radar is capable of tracking as many as 32 targets in the air simultaneously.

 

[Sanchez]

China is developing a FC-1 configuration for Egyptian air force. Radar specs is said to be 140kms for RCS=5m2.

 

[ANG]

Hi, thanks for the information on the Grifo-S7 Mr. Khanasif. That makes a lot of sense, move the radar back and increase its diameter, rather than conduct a nose redesign. Take care.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Sanchez...China is developing for egypt? but as of now they're in talks with PAF. that's a news..give us the link..

 

[ANG]

http://www.selex-sas.com/EN/Common/files/SELEX_Galileo/Products/GRIFO_FAMILY.pdf

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

can anyone tell me y Cheetah's nose is so long.

 

[ANG]

The Cheetah's nose had a larger more powerful radar, contained improved avionics and ECM electronics. Hence it had to be larger as there was no space to put this additional equipment. It was sloped downwards as to reduce the obstruction to the pilot's frontal view. Thanks!

 

[Sapper]

Some more updates ...

1. JF17 (prototype 1)----------600mm ... 282,745 mm2 (assuming circular Radome)
2. JF17 production-------------664mm ... 346,278 mm2 (assuming circular Radome)
3. *JF17 GrifoS7---------------600mm ... 282,745 mm2 (GrifoS7 circular Antenna)
4. Mirage 2000-----------------674mm ... 356,787 mm2 (assuming circular Radome)
5. *Mirage 3 Pk------------------470mm ... 173,494 mm2 (GrifoM3 circular Antenna)
6. *Mirage 5 Pk-------------------510mm ... 204,281 mm2 (GrifoM5/S5 circular Antenna)
7. *Mirage F1---------------------510mm ... 204,281 mm2 (GrifoF1/S1 circular Antenna)
8. *F16---------------------------740x480 ... 278,973 mm2 (Grifo16 elliptical Antenna, Radome will be bigger)
9. Su30-------------------------~1000mm . 785,397 mm2 (assuming circular Radome)
10. F15---------------------------~1000mm . 785,397 mm2 (assuming similar to Su30)
11. Rafale------------------------550mm ... 237,582 mm2 (circular Radar Antenna)
12. Mig35------------------------700mm ... 384,845 mm2 (Zhuk-AE/FGA35 Antenna)
13. F18--------------------------700mm ... 384,845 mm2 (Unconfirmed if Radome or antenna)
14. Eurofighter-----------------~750mm ... 441,786 mm2 (Unconfirmed speculation)
15. LCA--------------------------650mm ... 331,830 mm2 (Circular Antenna, Radome Unknown, but will be bigger)
16. Grippen--------------------~600mm ... 282,745 mm2 (PS-05/A Antenna, Radome will be bigger)
13. *Grippen NG-----------------~700mm ... 384,845 mm2 (Speculated Vixen 1000 Antenna)


Regards,
Sapper

 

[heavystorm]

----Dear friends, I am a common civilian of China.I think that upgrades JF-17 is not a difficult thing for engineers if required. China designed J10,L15,AF7,HillHawk and J11B at the same time. There are several aviation companies such as Cheng fei,Shen fei,Xian fei, Harbin fei and so on,each of them can design new aircraft.
----But the main problem is that redesign JF-17 isn't a instant thing.JF-17 is a light fighter,not a heavy fighter.Light fighter is used for defencing,the heavy fighter is used for attacking.Light fighter suit the developing countries,and heavy fighter suit the developed countries. That's why China has not accouter JF-17.PLAF's main mission is attack(may be Taiwan),we need big fighters which can fly long range,load many missiles,so we accountered J11B,Su30,AF7,J10 and so on.
----Pakistan have owned the "precaution radar plane", some news show me that China are manufacturing "Yun8 radar plane"for Pakistan(Sorry,my English is poor).Personally I think that with the help of that kind of plane,the light fighter doesn't need large radar.

 

[Sapper]

----Dear friends, I am a common civilian of China.I think that upgrades JF-17 is not a difficult thing for engineers if required. China designed J10,L15,AF7,HillHawk and J11B at the same time. There are several aviation companies such as Cheng fei,Shen fei,Xian fei, Harbin fei and so on,each of them can design new aircraft.
----But the main problem is that redesign JF-17 isn't a instant thing.JF-17 is a light fighter,not a heavy fighter.Light fighter is used for defencing,the heavy fighter is used for attacking.Light fighter suit the developing countries,and heavy fighter suit the developed countries. That's why China has not accouter JF-17.PLAF's main mission is attack(may be Taiwan),we need big fighters which can fly long range,load many missiles,so we accountered J11B,Su30,AF7,J10 and so on.
----Pakistan have owned the "precaution radar plane", some news show me that China are manufacturing "Yun8 radar plane"for Pakistan(Sorry,my English is poor).Personally I think that with the help of that kind of plane,the light fighter doesn't need large radar.

Dear,

I think you are getting the idea that PAF will be asking for redesign of JF17's nose to accommodate bigger radar. It don't think this is true.

All the information present on this thread suggest that JF17 has comparable room for radar than any of the front line fighters of its weight/size class, i.e Mirage3/5/2000/F1, F16, Grippen and even surpasses the radar array size for Rafale. We just need to get the latest technology incorporated into it to gain the maximum effect from the allotted size.

Personally i believe that China will offer us the best bang for bucks, and it will be hard to turn down any Chinese radar avionics if it even comes close to western counterpart because it will open up more room for improvement in financing for further upgrades.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[heavystorm]

Dear,

I think you are getting the idea that PAF will be asking for redesign of JF17's nose to accommodate bigger radar. It don't think this is true.

Regards,
Sapper

I understand your idea. Many years ago, China was not good at researching radar, our fighters had to use foreign radars, today, this kind of problem has been changed, J10's radar may be produced by China. But I am not sure about those radars' performance which was designed by Chian, because that are all military secrecy.

JF17 is a good light fighter, as a Chinese, the most important thing which I concern is that JF17 should use China's jet engine. I think China has enough capability to design a suitable jet engline for JF17, I hope that day come soon.
If JF17 use Russia's engine, that isn't a good thing for JF17, it is potential danger, Russia can stop providing engine to China or Pakistan at any moment.