JF-17 Nose Redesign Feasibility?

[Kompromat]

Accepted but if you have an issue there is a better way to talk about it then this. Any ways I think we should get back to the topic and leave the past to it.

You boys are Grown up and i expect you to keep the discussion as proffessional and technical as possible.

 

[Aslan]

You boys are Grown up and i expect you to keep the discussion as proffessional and technical as possible.

Noted!

 

[Aslan]

Khalid , i understand what you are saying but it still will need a Redesign.

We are going to redesign it anway for an AESA radar , Vixen 500E AESA was offered to us but we may buy VIXEN-1000E AESA which will be on board Gripen NG.

So yes the Nose would be redesigned if required.

Are these Italian, Swedish or British. In the case of the latter 2 there are 2 many stings attached dont you think.

 

[S-A-B-E-R->]

how abt expanding the entire front so it merges with ite dsi in takes and form something a cross between a raphal and f35 nose cone?
plz comment

 

[Kompromat]

how abt expanding the entire front so it merges with ite dsi in takes and form something a cross between a raphal and f35 nose cone?
plz comment

Depends on the Size of Radar's Antena.

 

[TaimiKhan]

It is ridiculous to compare the JF-17 program with the F-16 program.

It's like comparing Bangladesh's railway planning with China's high speed railways (the fastest in the world). No offence to bangladeshi brothers.

F-16 is not a low cost budget aircraft and F-16 is actually the most successful aircraft in aviation history.

USA can afford to spend 350 million dollars on purchasing a single fighter while the total program cost of JF-17 is 500 million dollars.

The modified F-16 is in fact a whole new aircraft with resemblance to the prototype.

Before coming in and derailing the thread with non sense, would be better you first understand in what contest the F-16 is being mentioned. F-16 is not being compared to JF-17. We are talking about nose redesign to accommodate a larger variant of a radar. In that context BB gave the example of F-16, that in its first prototype and the current Blk 60, a lot of changes came, and he was pointing towards its nose. See the nose of the first prototype in F-16 and then current latest version, hell of a difference. So in that context he gave an example to the Indian member that there is no need for redesign from scratch as suggested by you country men, rather a gradual redesign can take place with the passage of just like what happened in the F-16 program. No comparison of the planes is being done.

So next time do read and understand carefully, before derailing the thread.

 

[jagjitnatt]

Before coming in and derailing the thread with non sense, would be better you first understand in what contest the F-16 is being mentioned. F-16 is not being compared to JF-17. We are talking about nose redesign to accommodate a larger variant of a radar. In that context BB gave the example of F-16, that in its first prototype and the current Blk 60, a lot of changes came, and he was pointing towards its nose. See the nose of the first prototype in F-16 and then current latest version, hell of a difference. So in that context he gave an example to the Indian member that there is no need for redesign from scratch as suggested by you country men, rather a gradual redesign can take place with the passage of just like what happened in the F-16 program. No comparison of the planes is being done.

So next time do read and understand carefully, before derailing the thread.

Actually its you who needs to read carefully.

What I and he are saying is that for gradual change and upgradation you require MONEY like the Americans. They can afford to spend billions on upgrades but Pak or China or India cannot afford even millions for upgrades. F16 can be upgraded tens of times, but we can not afford to do the same. Even UK, France, Russia cannot afford that forget India or Pakistan.

Money is the only reason why such upgrades are going to be tough and not logical.

 

[Luftwaffe]

fair enough..but you didn't have to paste my post on the wall for it..pick someone you've problem with on the subject my reply was for that person.

 

[Avatar]

Before coming in and derailing the thread with non sense, would be better you first understand in what contest the F-16 is being mentioned. F-16 is not being compared to JF-17. We are talking about nose redesign to accommodate a larger variant of a radar. In that context BB gave the example of F-16, that in its first prototype and the current Blk 60, a lot of changes came, and he was pointing towards its nose. See the nose of the first prototype in F-16 and then current latest version, hell of a difference. So in that context he gave an example to the Indian member that there is no need for redesign from scratch as suggested by you country men, rather a gradual redesign can take place with the passage of just like what happened in the F-16 program. No comparison of the planes is being done.

So next time do read and understand carefully, before derailing the thread.

I understand.

Is there any data available on the cost of the radar ?

The points I made were :

1) Upgrade might be too expensive which will kill the purpose of making a "budget aircraft"
2) F-16 has gone through immense transformation since the prototype stage. This is elaborated by jag. So it is not reasonable to compare F-16's transformation with JF-17 (Also given the difference in time line)


Also, It is highly possible that Pakistani engineers and PAF must have already thought about what we are discussing right now and arrived at a valid conclusion even before the creation of this thread.

Since you have AWACS and PAF is playing a defensive role, then radar's are not that important. This upgrade could surely be a possibility somewhere down the line.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Actually its you who needs to read carefully.

What I and he are saying is that for gradual change and upgradation you require MONEY like the Americans. They can afford to spend billions on upgrades but Pak or China or India cannot afford even millions for upgrades. F16 can be upgraded tens of times, but we can not afford to do the same. Even UK, France, Russia cannot afford that forget India or Pakistan.

Money is the only reason why such upgrades are going to be tough and not logical.

Yeah i did read carefully, as have to properly read trolls and posts which derail, so next time give the advice to your own self, as you said no need for redesign, but design a new aircraft, which by the way costs more money compared to redesigning an already one.

And don't worry about money, we will get it as per our requirements. We think before we do, not like others who do and then think.

And again, there is no comparison with F-16s, we and BB is merely pointing out that redesign can happen as and when required.

We got the money for other projects, so will we get more in future.

Indians don't need to worry about money with respect to pakistan, rather worry about your own country's money being spent in their own defence projects.

 

[saleemfaisal]

Also change in JF-17 tail, like Su-27 or FC-20.

 

[TaimiKhan]

I understand.

Is there any data available on the cost of the radar ?

The points I made were :

1) Upgrade might be too expensive which will kill the purpose of making a "budget aircraft"
2) F-16 has gone through immense transformation since the prototype stage. This is elaborated by jag. So it is not reasonable to compare F-16's transformation with JF-17 (Also given the difference in time line)


Also, It is highly possible that Pakistani engineers and PAF must have already thought about what we are discussing right now and arrived at a valid conclusion even before the creation of this thread.

Since you have AWACS and PAF is playing a defensive role, then radar's are not that important. This upgrade could surely be a possibility somewhere down the line.

Why are you guys not getting the point, there is no comparison being done with F-16, BB merely said the nose shape in F-16s changed with passage of time as per requirements, so will the JF-17s will change with passage of time as and when if required.

Go and see our Mirage 5s which have gone through ROSE upgrade program, they are decades old aircraft, but they got refitted with latest available radars and as per requirement their nose cones got changed too, to accommodate a larger antenna, plus many other upgrades happened, even though it is an old aircraft and as per logic upgrading them would have been useless, but PAF thought about it and got it done and they are now much deadlier then they were ever before.

Plus, western upgrade programs are costly as they look for profits and their production costs are very expensive. But if we go for Chinese or something in house, the costs would be much low compared to western ones.

If this same JF-17 had been made by west, its cost would have been 35+M$s, but as on this side of the border or world, costs are much down, why is US and other countries out souring their things to India, China, Pakistan and other countries, to lower costs, as in west, they pay in dollars, while on this side of the border, it costs much much less due to the currency exchange thingy.

And if we can get F-16 Blk 52 or 60 capability from JF-17 in future with a cost of 30M or 35M, it is still good and acceptable for us, as then it will become a front line fighter for us, and not a work horse. So if we can buy a 50M F-16 or 40M FC-20s, then why not a 30M or 35M JF-17 which can perform the same as those other two.

 

[ambidex]

There is no need to tell what they should do with any of their planes. If they can go for french avionics then one must understand they are ready to spend money and do experiments. Furthermore when no one is ready to open doors for them they will try to make up gradation to make it a potent platform per PAF requirements.

There is no issue to stick with a notion that it is going to be a cheap platform. The background of whole Pak-China venture is USA rejecting them for F-16 in past one must understand. If today USA will become ''meharbaan'' they will not even look towards China for the same where up gradation feasibility is distant for sure.

''tangiyan de maree duniya, addyee(1/2) chore ban ge addyee sadhu'' same applies on India...on offence only philosophy....

 

[F86 Saber]

Why are you guys not getting the point, there is no comparison being done with F-16, BB merely said the nose shape in F-16s changed with passage of time as per requirements, so will the JF-17s will change with passage of time as and when if required.

Go and see our Mirage 5s which have gone through ROSE upgrade program, they are decades old aircraft, but they got refitted with latest available radars and as per requirement their nose cones got changed too, to accommodate a larger antenna, plus many other upgrades happened, even though it is an old aircraft and as per logic upgrading them would have been useless, but PAF thought about it and got it done and they are now much deadlier then they were ever before.

Plus, western upgrade programs are costly as they look for profits and their production costs are very expensive. But if we go for Chinese or something in house, the costs would be much low compared to western ones.

If this same JF-17 had been made by west, its cost would have been 35+M$s, but as on this side of the border or world, costs are much down, why is US and other countries out souring their things to India, China, Pakistan and other countries, to lower costs, as in west, they pay in dollars, while on this side of the border, it costs much much less due to the currency exchange thingy.

And if we can get F-16 Blk 52 or 60 capability from JF-17 in future with a cost of 30M or 35M, it is still good and acceptable for us, as then it will become a front line fighter for us, and not a work horse. So if we can buy a 50M F-16 or 40M FC-20s, then why not a 30M or 35M JF-17 which can perform the same as those other two.

Taimi bhai why don't you understand Pakistan will never have the money to up grade JF-17................. Please do so that we may be left in peace by our brotherly neighbours who rejoice in every success that we achieve.


By the Way very well explained........

 

[Sapper]

As long as we are on the same topic, i would like to know the exact size of nose cone sizes (dia+area) of all major aircraft in use with Pakistan and India.

I know following.

1. JF17 (prototype 1)............600mm ... 282,745 mm2 (assuming circular)
2. JF17 production................660mm ... 342,119 mm2 (assuming circular)
3. Mirage 2000.....................674mm ... 356,787 mm2 (assuming circular)
4. F16...................................??????
5. Su30................................1000mm . 785,397 mm2 (assuming circular)
6. F15...................................1000mm . 785,397 mm2 (assuming same as Su30)

I have added Su30 info as i read it somewhere i dont remember, and it was also mentioned that it was in same category as F14/F15.

Correct me if i am wrong ... add info if you have some source ... but don't comment if you dont know **** and just want to increase your post count.

Also add info on GrippenNG, Rafale, Eurofighter and J10A/B if you have it.

Regards,
Sapper