JF 17 is The Wrong Omnirole Aircraft For PAKISTAN

[Umair Nawaz]

Hi,

I did not make the comparison---someone did it on yahoo . com ---I just posted the information with my comments----.

So---just because you do not like the article you lose the respect----that is being very shallow----. How can the efforts of 9 years and 7 months be washed away just like that---maybe---could it be you who does not have the ability---capacity---and the understanding to understand what I am saying.

What I am saying is that over these years---it is me amongst many who puts forward a few things that people may agree on, or disagree---. Pappy--it s very difficult to keep an eternal hard on all the time.

Embargos are a SOB STORY----. Benazir paid the money upfront for the coming embargo----so that she could keep 150 million bribe from the deal of the embargoed F 16's---. Other aircraft were available during that time.

JF 17 is not a life line---it a complimentary aircraft to heavy aircraft---that is when it would be at its best----by itself---it is a maybe---.

In the complimentary mode---it is indeed a lifeline---. It needs something to create a beach head---to fracture the defense for it to slip thru---that is where its rapier like capability will shine thru---.

Well obviously my experience is no where close to yrs. So in the end obviously u know better.
Im not a military man either nor politician to know abt these things. But my field is International Relations and strategic. From that POV it makes sense.

Look no where anyone claims it to be on top of Su30s etc etc But when Indians were making Merat aircrafts we were still purchasing and got bamboozled by embargoes after 1965 and 1971. All the advantage that F86s had was completely neutralized when in 1971 they inducted Migs in numbers.

And the biggest embarrassment came to Pakistan or specifically PAF's face when in 1990 they embargoed us again just one yr after soviat withdraw. Yes u can argue that in 1994 abt M2000s instead of M3-4s etc but all in all Mushaf Ali Mir had a different plan in his mind. To make an aircraft that we can own and operate 100% fully to its greatest potential.

Yes we were late, very very late indians started their teja in 70s or 80s before that they had Merut's experience, At that time my guess is that PAF were overly confident .that they didnt made JFT or atleast started it back then so it could have been inducted in late 80s as super saber/saber2 just before sanctions. If they had done that today, we would be rolling out our own Medium weights or heavy weights.

Regardless of whatever reasons today we are not in that position and this is truth!

Now coming to this JFT of today, this is just a baby step that our domestic industry has taken but as time grows they keep on updating it do some RnD, experience and manufacturing capacity, we will grow in a position to eventually go for another ambitious project in medium or heavy category. Be it joint or indigenous.

There is a Chinese saying ''Journey of 1000 miles begins with a step'' u might have heard it often and if u look at Chinese they also started by copying migs, Su(s) etc etc. But all is good as long as we have full power on it which is made inside our own country by utilizing our own workforce. No matter how big of a crap it is.

I guess u being from auto industry can understand better its industrial POV that what it is when u yrself manufacture something and when u buy something, whats the difference and whats the wisdom in it.

In long run this will prove to be THE LIFELINE this way!

Thats how im looking at it. And i havnt even started to talk abt its strategic benefits and its comprehensive Strategic wisdom,

U will get bored.

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan

You know Pakistan had evaluated the Tornado but rejected it because it had limited air to air potential even with the ADV version. Maybe that can be a topic of your next thread .
On a side note the Americans tried to sell the F-111 to the Israelis. They too had rejected it for the same reasons. In their defence they later acquired the F-15I.

In my opinion Pakistan can't afford a heavy weight aircraft which can't hold its own against an enemy fighter.

Hi,

Times have changed----the current B52 bomber that just came out of the overhaul shop with the new gadgetry---will be able to shoot BVR missiles---it will have a massive radar that could jam the nuts of an enemy pilot flying 50 miles away.

Israel does not face an enemy the size and fire power of india. What Israel had was and is far superior to what its opponents had. The combined forces of Egypt, Syria and Jordan had less aircraft than the Israelis---Israel had more tanks and howitzers than these three put together.

Fire fights in this decade will start with long range shots---and the results will determine which way the battle is going to head---and with the number of bvr's being carried by the heavies and the potency of missiles tracking system----the mortality rate would be pretty high.

Your strike aircraft are not there to hold your air superiority---they are the ones carrying the extra load---because the margin of opportunity will be extremely narrow---and once you slip thru it---you need to have a potent load to justify the sacrifices made to get there.

Now you can fly a JFT's hidden under wing of a JH7B---it can pop up and create a much needed diversion for the strike force to get thru.

We might also want to use the air launch version of our babur cruise missile as well---the air launch version will give it another 1/3rd more range than the surface launch version---which means that if the current version of the surface to surface is around a 1000 KM---the air launched version would be around1300--1400 KM.

You have heavy enemy aircraft against you---by default---they will have larger radars and heavier jamming equipment than yours as well.

The loiter time of the JFT is nothing to be proud of----otoh---the enemy aircraft are looking at 3-4 hr loiter time---which mean---they can fly around and make a dash at the opportune time. The only aircraft to counter that would be the F 16's---.

If you want to use your tankers---it would have to be farther away from the borders----qute a ways off.

SU 27 in the bomber role cannot hold itself against the enemy aircraft---not even the JF17---but it is there---and so would the tornado be---till it is retired---.

When you send aircraft on strike missions----they are going in for the target---and not to put up a fight on the way in----their guardian aircraft will put up the fight---.

the strike aircraft will also take mission without any air support as well---just to do their jobs nicely quietly----. If you are old enough to remember we used to have B57 bombers in the 65 war-------. Yeah bombers still do exist---and bombers will make mission runs without any support as well.

The reason I mentioned the JH7B is that it will run the same price as the JF 17---it can carry close to 10000 KG of armament----it can have a massive aesa radar as well and can be equipped with heavy jammers.

Your other air superiority heavies run around 50 mil + range

 

[Last Samuri]

Based on your current finances paf will have to fight a defensive war. With falcons and thunders. And hope it ends in a week.

Beyond that financially you will collapse.

 

[GURU DUTT]

What a troll.Can't make Teja to fly n saying they are making engines from
scratches. . Show off Nation.

tell me do you make engines , body frame or avionicks or wepons of JF-17s
but i know you still dre4am that its gonna be a cakewalk for your PAF ober IAF in an event of war as most of you think like all assets of IAF dont have cpable radar's , EW suits , self protecting jammers or things like chaffs or flairs and wepons on them and PAF will be able to decsimate IAF's 65% strenth on day one

keep dreaming like that in a way its good for us

 

[Viper0011.]

@MastanKhan
On a side note the Americans tried to sell the F-111 to the Israelis. They too had rejected it for the same reasons. In their defence they later acquired the F-15I.

In my opinion Pakistan can't afford a heavy weight aircraft which can't hold its own against an enemy fighter.

Pakistan does need a few squadrons of heavies or medium multi-role fighters in numbers, no questions about it. Pakistan doesn't need a strike platform as it won't be striking anyone. Their goal is to defend, so multi role works. Heavies or medium multi-roles will be able to defend, intercept and JFT can be used for ground support.

 

[Beast]

Although I find that the Thunder offers a very suitable platform for PAF, I also believe that we have been in love with multiroles for far too long.

Budget constraints prevent procuring dedicated attack aircraft, but we are in desperate need of air-superiority fighters.

PS: F-16 is a lighweight AC not medium (like the F-18).

F-16 is a medium weight aircraft and not light weight. It empty weight is near 9tons. How can that be light weight? Just becos it single engine does not mean its light weight.

 

[Viper0011.]

Based on your current finances paf will have to fight a defensive war. With falcons and thunders. And hope it ends in a week.

Beyond that financially you will collapse.

Where did you get the current finances and what are they? Care to tell us? I am about to make your post look silly as you just made an idiotic comment without any factual backing!!!!

The one week war, was SO in 2013!!! Ask your Army generals before commenting, or do some research. But yet, outside of the finances crap you wrote, I agree with the part that the PAF will fight a defensive war. Makes perfect sense as they won't be attacking anyone.
PAF will be busy providing interception and ground support. That's it.

Hi,
Now you can fly a JFT's hidden under wing of a JH7B---it can pop up and create a much needed diversion for the strike force to get thru.

The loiter time of the JFT is nothing to be proud of----otoh---the enemy aircraft are looking at 3-4 hr loiter time---which mean---they can fly around and make a dash at the opportune time. The only aircraft to counter that would be the F 16's---.

SU 27 in the bomber role cannot hold itself against the enemy aircraft---not even the JF17---but it is there---and so would the tornado be---till it is retired---.

The reason I mentioned the JH7B is that it will run the same price as the JF 17---it can carry close to 10000 KG of armament----it can have a massive aesa radar as well and can be equipped with heavy jammers.

Your other air superiority heavies run around 50 mil + range

MK, to be honest with you, you aren't making sense anymore. In one sentence, you are saying the SU-27 in a bombing role, will not be able to tackle the enemy aircraft. But then, you constantly make the case for JH7A......which is a two decade older modified design for SU-25 (much older plane). If the SU-27 (modified to the teeth as J-11D) can't hold its own, how the heck could a 4 decade concept hold its own???


J-11D is the best option for the PAF decent numbers and affordable. Or, 44-64 (2-3 squadrons and trainers) of SU-35. That's it. Or 80-100 FC-20, either combination would help. Plus add 18 new -16's block 52 or 30-ish used -16's (still cheaper than 18 brand new ones).

JFT's loiter time is smaller......but if its placed closer to the border for interception, an airway lasts for a few minutes, if that. You know that. And JFT can be VERY effective IF places closer to the border and positions properly. Hell, your F-7's and Mirages can be good assets IF positioned properly, close to the border so their Sidewinders can lock onto the inbound jet's the second they take off. You defeat SU-30's or anyone else's bigger radar advantage.

One thing the USAF teaches it pilots again and again is that you win half the battle when you force the enemy to fight under your rules. In which case, the second a -16 forces a -15 into close combat, the -15 immediately uses it bigger radar advantage. The results then are usually in Viper's favor. Same thing for the PAF, deploy the JFT, the Mirages and F-7's closer to the border so you get maximum out of them.

Like I said before many times, the planes to acquire more 4.5 generation aircraft are on the table. The weight was to find out what India gets and this was buying time for the PAF too, as they wanted to see FC-20 and J11D getting matured up. Now you also have the Russian option for the SU-35 (great jet). So options are open. A call will be made soon. Got to have the patience. The wasted time since the 90's can't be returned but hey, no harm no foul. Every-time is right when you decide to course correct yourself!!

 

[black-hawk_101]

instead of 250 JF-17s, pakistan should get 36 j-10 and 100 jf -17.
just my 2 cents

150 JF-17s are confirmed and PAF will go for it.

 

[DD5]

Hi,

JF 17 is the wrong air craft for the armed forces of Pakistan. Even though it has been inducted with a great fanfare and extremely positive results---this aircraft is a little too small aircraft to do the job right when facing the likes of IAF.

On its own merit---the JF 17---for its size has one of the best overall packages available in the industry---air to air---air to ground and air to sea---.

So---in order to have balance in its air arm---Pakistan will have to purchase multiple other platforms.

We have the F16's and possibly no more F 16's----.

We need a medium strike aircraft---with the likes of a JH7B with aesa---this aircraft is like the tornado---. This aircraft can carry 8-10 anti ship missiles and still can defend itself with BVR missiles as well. In the Growler mode, this aircraft take the potency to fight back the enemy to a new level.

Pakistan also need an air superiority type aircraft----like the J 10B----or the J 11---and then on top of that---Pakistan will be looking forward to a stealth type plane like the J 31.

Pakistan military is missing the strike capability of a Tornado type of aircraft in its arsenal---and for that---PAF has failed to deliver.

The procurement of fighter aircraft needs to be taken away from the Pakistan air force---a 3 member team formed with the decision to buy that is needed.

Basically---PAF CANNOT be TRUSTED to buy the right type of equipment---. Like in the case of Saab aircraft----. Paf wanted all saab aircraft and Musharraf put a stop to it and got 4 or 5 chinese variants to have diversity and lines open in case of sanctions from Sweden.

Musharraf's decision proved to ve correct----the Chinese aircraft are as potent or better than the Swedish.

In a similar manner---Musharraf made the deal to buy 36 J 10's---. He knew in his heart and he knew from his experience that the JF 17 as good as it is in its class with all the paraphernalia---is not the answer to the needs of Pakistan.

Pakistan needed a bigger and a more potent aircraft-----.

Now Paf may have thought otherwise----but if you ook at the history of Paf since 1971----it is mostly of failures---bad decisions---lack of understanding the level of threat---at times total ignorance of issues at hand---at times not sharing the level of imminent threat to the national assets-----.

Which basically leads it be acting more like a person who is acting like someone with least concern rather than one who has the best interest of the Pakistan.

I think J-10, along with some 5th gen. Chinese aircraft would be the right way to go now.

Gripens were disallowed as no one would sell them to us.

Also I disagree with putting the blame on PAF. Kargil was an Army misadventure, while PAF was urging caution.

Gripens along with AWACs would have been a good purchase. India intervened. Thats why you don't have them today.

 

[CHI RULES]

Does not the su-35 have the same engine problems as the su-30

If the engines break down will they be have to sent to Russia for overhauling?

pls correct me if I am wrong both mentioned birds are using different engines.

 

[Pindi Boy]

Si

Where did you get the current finances and what are they? Care to tell us? I am about to make your post look silly as you just made an idiotic comment without any factual backing!!!!

The one week war, was SO in 2013!!! Ask your Army generals before commenting, or do some research. But yet, outside of the finances crap you wrote, I agree with the part that the PAF will fight a defensive war. Makes perfect sense as they won't be attacking anyone.
PAF will be busy providing interception and ground support. That's it.



MK, to be honest with you, you aren't making sense anymore. In one sentence, you are saying the SU-27 in a bombing role, will not be able to tackle the enemy aircraft. But then, you constantly make the case for JH7A......which is a two decade older modified design for SU-25 (much older plane). If the SU-27 (modified to the teeth as J-11D) can't hold its own, how the heck could a 4 decade concept hold its own???


J-11D is the best option for the PAF decent numbers and affordable. Or, 44-64 (2-3 squadrons and trainers) of SU-35. That's it. Or 80-100 FC-20, either combination would help. Plus add 18 new -16's block 52 or 30-ish used -16's (still cheaper than 18 brand new ones).

JFT's loiter time is smaller......but if its placed closer to the border for interception, an airway lasts for a few minutes, if that. You know that. And JFT can be VERY effective IF places closer to the border and positions properly. Hell, your F-7's and Mirages can be good assets IF positioned properly, close to the border so their Sidewinders can lock onto the inbound jet's the second they take off. You defeat SU-30's or anyone else's bigger radar advantage.

One thing the USAF teaches it pilots again and again is that you win half the battle when you force the enemy to fight under your rules. In which case, the second a -16 forces a -15 into close combat, the -15 immediately uses it bigger radar advantage. The results then are usually in Viper's favor. Same thing for the PAF, deploy the JFT, the Mirages and F-7's closer to the border so you get maximum out of them.

Like I said before many times, the planes to acquire more 4.5 generation aircraft are on the table. The weight was to find out what India gets and this was buying time for the PAF too, as they wanted to see FC-20 and J11D getting matured up. Now you also have the Russian option for the SU-35 (great jet). So options are open. A call will be made soon. Got to have the patience. The wasted time since the 90's can't be returned but hey, no harm no foul. Every-time is right when you decide to course correct yourself!!

Sir will Russia give us Super flankers???? and there is also a issue of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$???

 

[monitor]

Actually JF-17 never intended to become a omnirole fighter for PAF its genesis was to counter any future sanction impose on PAF and give Pakistan a BVR platform while keep the procurement/manufacturing running and maintenance cost affordable for Pakistan air force and all of this have achieve with the induction of JF-17 fighter in PAF but this is should not be consider the solution for all the threat emerging on its border with its main adversary getting better and more fighter in its fleet . right at this moment JF-17 is replacing all the legacy fighter PAF operating and going to provide the number for PAF to defend its home sky from aggression but along with JF-17 Pakistan should get some heavy weight fighter like J-11D to supplement its fleet of F-16 and JF-17 before the arrival of J-31 after 2020.it will give PAF some breathing space at this moment .

 

[Pindi Boy]

tell me do you make engines , body frame or avionicks or wepons of JF-17s
but i know you still dre4am that its gonna be a cakewalk for your PAF ober IAF in an event of war as most of you think like all assets of IAF dont have cpable radar's , EW suits , self protecting jammers or things like chaffs or flairs and wepons on them and PAF will be able to decsimate IAF's 65% strenth on day one

keep dreaming like that in a way its good for us

JF-17 is not prepared considering the intensity of enemy threat, it is designed considering PAF doctrine... smart airforce?
JF-17 can knock out, most of Indian fleet e.g. mirages and migs. in all war scenarios.
While all the bombing missions of over glorified SU-27 of IAF, will be countered by SAMs.
India SU were humiliated in American Redflags and due to its sluggish maneuverability are considered as trucks in air.
Only advantage IAF have over PAF is numbers... and no one can change the fact that the probability of survival increase if the numbers are increased, here the trouble is IAF pilots, for which I'm willing to bet will refuse to fly in any Indo-Pak war scenario.

 

[GURU DUTT]

JF-17 is not prepared considering the intensity of enemy threat, it is designed considering PAF doctrine... smart airforce?
JF-17 can knock out, most of Indian fleet e.g. mirages and migs. in all war scenarios.
While all the bombing missions of over glorified SU-27 of IAF, will be countered by SAMs.
India SU were humiliated in American Redflags and due to its sluggish maneuverability are considered as trucks in air.
Only advantage IAF have over PAF is numbers... and no one can change the fact that the probability of survival increase if the numbers are increased, here the trouble is IAF pilots, for which I'm willing to bet will refuse to fly in any Indo-Pak war scenario.

 

[Pindi Boy]