JF-17 French Avionics Deal On Hold/Cancelled

[Indestructible]

FC-20 is already showing 150 crafts interest (wikipedia) ... we need to move funds to J11 100

Just fast track it do a press release

What we need is when ever the lobby sites pain and panic , put the foot down , and purchase 2ice the weapons and do a big press release. To push the panic mode in hyper mode this is the only response -

Sure the avionics deal is slowed no problem just dedicate the funds over to 100- J11B project and 100 - J10B project

Why just get avionics ? When we can get full planes (Avionics + Frames and Technology)

Now we have ample cash saved up 8 billion dollars ? Is it ?

Even if we investe 1 billion in developing our own industry !!! Avionics we can achive more becasue cost of research and engineering is cheaper in Pakistan due to abundance of personnel available and software engineers in Pakistan

There are 80-90 solid Software engineering companies in Pakistan just give them the cash 1 billion over 2-3 years , I am sure we will have our own avionics

Becasue 1 billion USD means 15 billion USD in term of return of investment with Pakistani talent and engineering - we develop our own PHD and physics experts they just need tools & cash supply there isn't a company in West that has no Pakistani engineer's mark on it

7 Billion purchase - 200 planes , 1 billion put on national avionics industry with Chinese cooperation (hardware LCD pannels , touch screen etc , radars)

Sir! The primary objective is to modernize Jf-17 even further. We have just inoculated this platform in PAF. Let it mature according to our current needs. Equip it with the most advanced yet inexpensive weapons. Once this stage is set and complete, we'll move onto other planes. Pakistan has already evaluated Rafael and rejected it. French know that Pakistan won't be buying Rafael anytime soon. Their best bet is MMRCA to get the money rolling in. So no worries...we don't know what PAF is going to do but I know one thing for sure....they are professionals and they must have a backup plan.

Edit: I am myself a software engineer and trust me we are NOT CAPABLE of producing avionics at the moment. This is not just a simple software program...It is a complete e-warfare system that our university graduates don't even know about. Our education does not offer such wide range of studies. It only emphasis basics of computer science and most of the graduates end up developing websites *sigh* For now, we have to rely on western avionics.

 

[Machoman]

I realize that we are all blaming India and French for this mess. Even though humaray khud kay pajamay tight hain. We are so screwed up financially that we should sign this contract long time ago specially when it’s a matter of JF-17. But what else we can do just come on this forum and ***** about it. We are the people of Pakistan why don’t we do something about it. We have so many members we can all combine and write a letter from Defense Forum to government that we care about Pakistan and need some answers. When we have this kind a audience there will be some response I am sure. But all we can do is come and talk to each other aur sub apni dil ki bhadas yahni nikal detay hain.

 

[Creder]

Ohh ya now suddenly everything that is French will become useless and the worst equipment there is, its funny to see how sides change so fast.

no its remarkable how quickly we're able to shed it off and look for more better solutions, we haven't let the west incapacitate us before and we dont plan on letting them get to us now. Remember JF-17 wouldnt be here had it not been for US's biggotry but here we are first squaron operational, so what if it takes some time if we are able to build our own AESA radar or any avionics for that matter it would be more beneficial to us in the long run than this deal could have ever been. I know you'd rather have us see crestfallen and angry over this deal, but it would take a hell of a lot more than this to bring us down

 

[ANG]

Hi, I never said French equipment was bad. It is top notch, otherwise the PAF would not have negotiated so long for it. However, if you pay 1.6Billion, you should negotiate a full ToT, otherwise you are at the mercy of sanctions.

France promised not to sell to Taiwan ever again, after China blocked all deals. There is no reason why Francce will not do it to Pakistan, if she feels its long term interests are not served.

Moreover, Pakistan is very weak economically right now, and has absolutely no leverage. It needs IMF funding to pay its bills, and would need to borrow to finance this. That is the sad fact, they have no economic clout.

Lastly, I still do not like the RC400 radar, however, that is my personal opinion. I am not saying French equipment is bad. The JF-17 should get an AESA radar for Block II, and only China will sell that to the PAF. I highly doubt any Western country will part with that technology. Just my opinion though.

 

[Dazzler]

First, the deal is not Canceled, it is postponed, meaning it is on hold. I mentioned before that Pakistan asked for top of the line equipment that French were already reluctant to sell but they agreed later. Their true concern is if these toys ended up in China and that they want full payment on time. The deal is still not over and both sides are negotiating.

 

[desiman]

I think our backup plan will come up after MRCA and I bet that'll rattle those who refused.

I hate this blind patriotism that we have a huge trump card or Hidden deal etc etc Defense deals don’t happen overnight and take a lot of effort and diplomacy as we can all see. Currently Pakistan has no “Backup” plan in place for an avionics deal and it will take some time for a plan B to come into shape. There are no hidden surprises my friend.

 

[qsaark]

I hate this blind patriotism that we have a huge trump card or Hidden deal etc etc Defense deals don’t happen overnight and take a lot of effort and diplomacy as we can all see. Currently Pakistan has no “Backup” plan I place for an avionics deal and it will take some time for a plan B to come into shape. There are no hidden surprises my friend.

Negotiating with Italy IS a backup plan and even if that plan fails, PAF HAS Chinese option open. World will not come to an end if this deal (which is currently on-hold) falls apart; In fact who knows PAF was really dying for this deal or was trying to 'cajole' Chinese to come up with superior avionics with better price tag.

 

[desiman]

Negotiating with Italy IS a backup plan and even if that plan fails, PAF HAS Chinese option open. World will not come to an end if this deal (which is currently on-hold) falls apart; In fact who knows PAF was really dying for this deal or was trying to 'cajole' Chinese to come up with superior avionics with better price tag.

Bhaijan all this is good, but it will take some time for any of this to take shape. My point being that there are no hidden surprises right now. All such negotiations will take alteast 1 more year just to get to the drawing table.

 

[Dazzler]

Qsaark

Agreed !

Even without French goodies, Thunder is way better than the rest of PAF fleet. The impact of French package will be felt only the Specialized Variant that was/is planed and can be fulfilled with Italian goodies already on offer. It was mentioned earlier in jf-17 thread that second batch equipment along with radar is already under testing phase in China that would have given tough competition to the French package anyway.

 

[qsaark]

Bhaijan all this is good, but it will take some time for any of this to take shape. My point being that there are no hidden surprises right now. All such negotiations will take alteast 1 more year just to get to the drawing table.

This would not affect anything, would it? Is it not already announced that the first fifty JF-17s will have Chinese avionics? Currently we have some twelve JF-17s; I conservatively estimate that the 50th JF-17 will be delivered to PAF somewhere around 2012 or maybe 2013. So we effectively have at least another three years till any avionics/missile deal gets finalized/materialized with French or Italians or the Chinese come up with better avionics at par or close to at par with those of Western.

 

[Dazzler]

The most important thing is that Thunder development program is well on its way and these small hurdles will not stop it no matter what happens.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I think this is a wakeup call to move our own avionics industry to next level

 

[desiman]

This would not affect anything, would it? Is it not already announced that the first fifty JF-17s will have Chinese avionics? Currently we have some twelve JF-17s; I conservatively estimate that the 50th JF-17 will be delivered to PAF somewhere around 2012 or maybe 2013. So we effectively have at least another three years till any avionics/missile deal gets finalized/materialized with French or Italians or the Chinese come up with better avionics at par or close to at par with those of Western.

It wont affect anything that much but will increase the time scale a lot. If Pakistan start negotiations now with the Italians or with China, it will delay the actual implementation of the deal by atleast 1 year and thats not counting all the variable involved. How eager the Italians are to give away their avionics to Pakistan keeping in mind Pakistan's closeness with China is questionable. Italians wont like their technology in Chinese hands and then end up on the market as Chinese tech at a later point. Lot of issues to be worked out and PAF and Pakistan have their hands full now. Pakistan must exercise caution and the professionalism of the Pakistani personnel involved with the French deal must be questioned. This is a huge lapse in diplomacy for Pakistan and the ambassador to France must be put under scrutiny too. This is a good opportunity for Pakistan to clean out bugs in their procurement system.

 

[Ingis]

I don't think that would be financially feasible and would take of course decades before showing any useful results.

I agree. But you can collaborate with China and that might help speed things up.

Also, don't forget Turkey. I have heard that they have several military projects going on.

Man... don't rely on these Americans and Europeans too much. They can never be true friends of anyone.

 

[Dazzler]

Negotiations with Italians are well under way and Chinese package for competition for the next batch is under testing. They will not let go the sale for next batch avionics that easy like they did for the first batch. The quality of equipment is not compromised at all at any stage.