JF-17 French Avionics Deal On Hold/Cancelled

[gogbot]

We will most likely get the J-10, but J-11 is something that is very unlikely to happen, also it would be hard to maintain something that big in our fleet.

Also PAF is forbidden from procuring any twin engine fighter aircraft.

 

[qsaark]

I do know that Qsaark that they are equipped with Italian Grifo-MG radar but that’s nothing ground breaking in any way. Its not even the best Italian radar available. I wanted to ask about the other "Accessories “that you mentioned. My point is that the Italians will offer their tech for sure to Pakistan but what kind is the main question. Pakistan would have much better off with French tech which is superior by all standards. The French aviation industry is more developed than the Italian and they have lots of experience working with South Asian customers.

Do you not think that you are doing too much of knit picking just to prove a point which is no point at all? First you made an argument that PAF had no backup plans, and I told you that PAF already has a backup plan in form of Italian avionics, and even if that fails for one or other reason(s), PAF can always go with Chinese avionics. Than you argued about the time frame, and I told you that PAF would not need the technology under negotiation until at least 2012/2013 as the first fifty JF-17 will be equipped with Chinese avionics anyway. Than you argued about Western countries's reluctance on technology transfer to Pakistan because it would be 'leaked' to China and I told you that PAF had already been in such a venture with Italians for her Chinese made F-7s. Than you came up with the question on the 'extent' of the technology and I told you that the F-7s are already using PAC Kamra assembled Italian Grifo radar. And Now you are asking about the 'accessories' which are trivial as the major component or the most sensitive technology is the fire control radar not the nuts and bolts and wirings.

As far as your 'ground breaking' argument is concerned, let me remind you that the JF-17 is only a semi-4th generation multi role fighter. What level of 'ground breaking' technologies we would need to put into it? JF-17 is not going to be an air-superiority fighter, for that, PAF would largely rely on F-16 blk50, F-16 MLU and J-10. At most, JF-17 will be point defense fighter with capability of firing BVR AAM when needed. The primary role of JF-17 in the PAF would be as an Interdictor/Strike fighter, the role of A-5s and Mirages, its going to replace in PAF.

Negotiations for avionics/missile package for JF-17 is not any different than any other defense procurement; Talking to French doesn't mean PAF has already decided to buy French stuff as at the same time, PAF is also negotiating with Italians, Chinese, even South Africa and Britain (Marconi) and trying to cut the best deal. There could be dozens of reason for this up-hold, maybe its recent IAF MiG-29 upgrade contract, maybe its MRCA, maybe French are trying to make more money, or trying to win larger contract(s) from PAF etc. Whatever the reason(s) maybe, the JF-17 is not the F-22 or F-35; PAF would like to have most sophisticated yet affordable avionics, but not that would be unnecessary regardless of sophistication. If PAF would have to spend that kind of money and induct that kind of technology, it would most probably be done on the J10s not on JF-17s.

 

[gogbot]

OH God.. is that the reason why Thales has halted the deal for J-17 Thunders? our neighboring friends have back-stabbed us yet again.. Good going India.. keep the doctrine of Chankia alive. You only surprised but not disappointed us.. we couldn't expect anything good from your side either.

The Mig-29 upgrade of 64 aircraft
the mirage upgrade of 50+ aircraft
and the potential of sale of 126 Dassult Rafael's , and of course cooperation developing the GTRE/SCHEMA Kaveri-2 .

Its simple really, blame your politicians for not seeing the writing on the wall. And not India for securing its interests.

Your BABu's should have seen this coming and taken action before hand.

And mind you the Mig-29 and Mirage deals alone shadow the JF-17 deal. Why would India accept Pakistan getting the same type of avionics, as it own fleet. when India is paying more.

Pakistan got muscled out, simple as that.

Now your air force has to settle for second best, your original choice of French Avionics seems to be in trouble.

No matter what you may get as an alternative, there was a reason France was chosen above all of them in the first place.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Peregrine..Let us wait MRCA deal...like i said before Pakistan is not sitting idle we'll make out moves too. Rest assured any competitor who loses out of mrca might offer something to Pakistan and india won't be able to pressurize them under the pretext of being used against them world knows we've old fighter in our inventory that needs replacement we're modernizing our Air Force.
Even brazil is reluctance on rafale..google it brazil said it'll look into all competitors gripen/F-18/rafale so that assured rafale win is no more there bad days for france again i hope F-18 wins..Let another marketing disaster for france takes place.

 

[mr42O]

Last time we were not sold F16 we made JF 17 ( with very much help of China). We said THANK U USA

Do China buy from other countries ? Why do we need to buy there stuff when we can live with Chinees stuff ?

And now France.... Will we thank them too in future ?

I think France USA etc are worried about our weapon industry. They look at it as threat so maybe thats why ? As we say MARD KI EK ZABAN OTI HEE. Deal is deal. France should have thought about all this before not after making this deal.

We should blame our great leaders like mr10% and other with fake digrees. LETS VOTE FOR REAL LEADER AND THATS IMRAN KHAN

 

[Luftwaffe]

Relax man, again parties who loses out of MRCA will be our market. Something is better than nothing west work on this agenda. Perhaps if russian loses out might allow China to sales J-11 to Pakistan. Just wait for mrca deal its not far away now we've gone this far to wait we'll wait a little longer PAF has a backup plan and i am sure its not going to be like in 1990's F-7s deal this time around something better is coming up along FC-20s deal.

 

[desiman]

Do you not think that you are doing too much of knit picking just to prove a point which is no point at all? First you made an argument that PAF had no backup plans, and I told you that PAF already has a backup plan in form of Italian avionics, and even if that fails for one or other reason(s), PAF can always go with Chinese avionics. Than you argued about the time frame, and I told you that PAF would not need the technology under negotiation until at least 2012/2013 as the first fifty JF-17 will be equipped with Chinese avionics anyway. Than you argued about Western countries's reluctance on technology transfer to Pakistan because it would be 'leaked' to China and I told you that PAF had already been in such a venture with Italians for her Chinese made F-7s. Than you came up with the question on the 'extent' of the technology and I told you that the F-7s are already using PAC Kamra assembled Italian Grifo radar. And Now you are asking about the 'accessories' which are trivial as the major component or the most sensitive technology is the fire control radar not the nuts and bolts and wirings.

As far as your 'ground breaking' argument is concerned, let me remind you that the JF-17 is only a semi-4th generation multi role fighter. What level of 'ground breaking' technologies we would need to put into it? JF-17 is not going to be an air-superiority fighter, for that, PAF would largely rely on F-16 blk50, F-16 MLU and J-10. At most, JF-17 will be point defense fighter with capability of firing BVR AAM when needed. The primary role of JF-17 in the PAF would be as an Interdictor/Strike fighter, the role of A-5s and Mirages, its going to replace in PAF.

Negotiations for avionics/missile package for JF-17 is not any different than any other defense procurement; Talking to French doesn't mean PAF has already decided to buy French stuff as at the same time, PAF is also negotiating with Italians, Chinese, even South Africa and Britain (Marconi) and trying to cut the best deal. There could be dozens of reason for this up-hold, maybe its recent IAF MiG-29 upgrade contract, maybe its MRCA, maybe French are trying to make more money, or trying to win larger contract(s) from PAF etc. Whatever the reason(s) maybe, the JF-17 is not the F-22 or F-35; PAF would like to have most sophisticated yet affordable avionics, but not that would be unnecessary regardless of sophistication. If PAF would have to spend that kind of money and induct that kind of technology, it would most probably be done on the J10s not on JF-17s.

I think your getting me totally wrong Qsaark. I am not questioning anything or anyone. My emphasis is on the point that other negotiations are no where even close to the point that the French Negotiations were. Not only were the French offering Thomson-CSF RC400 but also a nice weapons package to go with it. The main reason Pakistan choose the French package is because RC400 is much better than the Grifo S7 that was being offered by the Italians. I have some doubts that PAF will go for the Italian Radar on the JF-17 as its nothing that amazing even for a 4th generation aircraft. PAF was not negotiating with the South Africans for a avionics package but for the Denel A-darter missile. The south African currently do not manufacture advanced avionics till now. My whole point is that this incident will delay the JF-17 move up, even with this avionics package, the production for the JF-17 with the French package would have started in 2013-2014. Now that date can be easily pushed ahead by 1-2 years if the French deal does not go through. SELEX had offered the Vixen 500E AESA which the PAF had declined. Even if the accept that offer now, it will take an easy 2 years just to get the sale approved by the British Parliament.

 

[Luftwaffe]

desiman...I think you've to give credit to Italian radar manufacturer..Grifo2000/16 is not a bad radar and a good replacement for APG-66..JF-17 can easily accommodate it. Do some research being an elite member.

 

[Hulk]

Its easier to blame Pakistani politicians or Babu's for weak diplomacy. You have to understand this, strength comes from your countries position to a large extent. Even you put an idiot as US president he will get job done, does that mean he is smart? If Pakistan's economy grows and becomes a strong economy all this thing will go. India has more money now, simple as that, yes there is some art also involved do not deny that but strength of country comes into play.

 

[desiman]

desiman...I think you've to give credit to Italian radar manufacture..Grifo2000/16 is not a bad radar and a good replacement for APG-66..JF-17 can easily accommodate it. Do some research being an elite member.

Its not a bad radar, I never said it is. But its nothing that fancy also. With some hard work the PAF can do much better than it. My recommendation would be to work it out with the British. The SELEX Radar would be a better choice than what the French are offering. I have done my research buddy, maybe you should do yours.

 

[Kompromat]

What do you guys think about Salex Gallelio Vixen-1000E ?

 

[desiman]

What do you guys think about Salex Gallelio Vixen-1000E ?

It is for sure a much better option. It is very diverse and is based on a proven platform and from a very good company. Just a quote from their website -

“The Vixen 1000ES radar is a wide field of regard system optimized for multi-role/ swing role operations. The system features comprehensive mode suite for both A/A and A/G including interleaved operation, ensuring high availability and reliability. The Vixen 1000ES, a collaborative programme with SELEX Galileo, SAAB Microwave and SAAB Aerosystems, builds on established technology from the European leaders in AESA radars and has a clear route map to future capability.”

 

[VrSoLdIeRs]

remember in the late 70's how french backed off that heavy water plant deal under US pressure.... we still went on to make it.... we WILL do it again!!!

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

These are just stumbling blocks that is all! It is a reminder & a lesson............does anyone has a slightest doubt about it?

 

[khanasifm]

RC-400 has a 400 watt transmitter versus Galileo S-7 500 watt , I think it was not just the radar but the whole package , RADAR, ECM, WEAPONS + especially MICA that made the deal attractive.

French offered an integrated system and does not need any major modification

Italians will sell radar + assembly but then pak has to integrate it with chinese ECM, Weapons + BVR and which make the whole project very risky and perhaps costly.

Grifo S-7
New features include a powerful 500 watt transmitter to increase detection ranges, four receiver/processor channels, an open architecture 25-mode processor, and high-resolution spotlight synthetic aperture radar. Grifo 2000 (Same as S-7 but different antenna )also incorporates enhanced air-to-air track-while-scan through 60 degrees each way in azimuth and elevation,, and modern beyond-visual-range AAM capabilities (AIM120 and other semi-active, plus sensor fusion with infra-red search and track systems. It has also been designed with easy transition to an electronic scanning antenna in mind.