JF-17 French Avionics Deal On Hold/Cancelled

[aimarraul]

I love this news.
However i am waiting for Chinese member's response to comment on Pakistani member's flip flop.

i don't think you guys are really gonna like our comments.it hurts.

first,indian should realize that JF-17 will be upgrated a lot.with or without new avionics and radar from france or other countries，it will happen.china and pakistan both invested lot of $ in JF-17 project,CAC and PAC will do whatever necessary to make it more competitive on the market ，that's how you lower r&d and production costs.

many indian may believe that china can do nothing without the foreign tech,but i suggest you not to judge that from your nationalist angle .How much does china spend on defence every year?how much did we import from other countries recent years?we found out the exist of kj-2000 and 052C even 5 years ago（Varyag will also use the same rader if you notice the recent photos)，it means china already got a major breakthrough in rader area.how did indian know the new testing J-10B and J-11B haven't fit with new AESA yet,you can notice the great difference in radome between J10 and J10B.if you watch more carefully，you can also notice different weapons rack ，what is it for?to increase the combat radius and payload,so we can also be sure J-10B will fit with a more powerful engine rather than AL-31FN(ws-10a /future more likely WS-15),do you indian really believe that J-10B will count on whether or not pakistan can make any deal with other country then hand over the tech to us?russia already stop offering new engine for J-11 since last years(probably because we signed the Intellectual Property Security Agreement in 2008),but we knew WS-10A already be fit in some new j-11B baced on recent pictures, according to some inside sources ,we can be sure the mass production of WS-10A already started this year. and we will still import AL-31FN in the next few years.why?cause we can only produce that many WS-10A per year,new J-10A also need engine.about new WS-15,it finally revealed last year(it's being developed for over ten years),WS-15 connects to almost every major projects ,so no matter how much money we have to input,we will make it real,In this respect WS-15 is much more important than WS-10A

even though all these may takes other a couple years,but indian should know that every tech i mentioned could be used on JF-17.personally i think PLA will also purchase some JF-17 when two countries finish the ungrate,because china still needs thousand of new jets to protect our border.

if pakistan can make this deal with france,good,we are happy for them,they can even start upgrating the JF-17 from 2012 ，if this deal cancel, they shouldn't be overdisappointed,LCA haven't enter servise yet,F-16 capable of confronting SU-30

as TaimiKhan said ,france is a different country,china got lots of tech transfer from france before，i think "china" is just the pretext this time,they probably don't want to make a hasty decision before MMRCA deal close 。

do indian really think that you can get the tech from a complete jet so easily ? if that's ture.you guys already saw hundreds of BlackHawk flying in our sky

 

[Kompromat]

I would like to see Pakistan working on its own Electronics / Avionics and new Missile systems along with China .

They can bring hurdles but SinoPak will brust through them !

 

[ameer219]

Well everyone, just cheer up, its no big deal. Remember when we were on our long journey to get our nuclear weapons? Many people said Pakistan, would not be able to achieve that status right?

But we achieved it after so many hurdles, including USA pressure.So please, don't be backed down by this 1.6Bil deal.I am sure there is more than just French alternative!

 

[DaRk WaVe]

it seems to me that Israelis might have sensed the French love for Dollah, Thats why they offered a deal but as usual we acted like Pak-rabs & missed a Golden chance to get our hands on things like Python-4, Python-5 & Derby, I still don't understand why Israeli offer was turned down, at least we could have looked into it

​

 

[MZUBAIR]

Yes, the only cancelation reason could be Indian MRCA deal....
Pakistan have good relations with France.....I feel that sooner or later France will resume this package. C O Air Staff and might be some one from Gov discuss this issue with France.
Lets wait and see wt comes next........not only that who knows the that this news is just to hide\cover the leakage of newz deal.

World is not over.........We have also many other options.
Dont forget Mirage ROSE program also improved PAF Mirage capabilities.......France will surely resume its package deal.

 

[ambidex]

i don't think you guys are really gonna like our comments.it hurts.

first,indian should realize that JF-17 will be upgrated a lot.with or without new avionics and radar from french or other countries，it will happened.china and pakistan both invested lot of $ in JF-17 project,CAC and PAC will do whatever to make it more competitive on the market ，that's how you lower r&d and production costs.

So JF-17 as boasted by both partners was never a complete platform

Pakistan desperately needs new birds to replace ageing fleet. Your assertion to make it cost effective and sell it to other nations doesn't fit into this scenario. Your bird is already cheap as compare to its contemporary counterparts. I think your bird need better PR and induction into Chinese fleet before you could suggest us that it will be a market ready product.

Many indian may believe that china can do nothing without the foreign tech,but i suggest you not to judge that with your nationalist sentiment .How much does china spend on defence every year?how much do we spent on purchasing from other country recent years?we found out the exist of kj-2000 and 052C even 5 years ago（Varyag will also use the same rader if you notice the recent photos)，it means china already got a major breakthrough in rader area,how did indian know the new testing J-10B and J-11B haven't fit with new AESA yet,you can notice the great difference in radome between J10 and J10B.if you watch more carefully，you can also notice weapons rack difference，what is it for?to increase the combat radius and payload,so we can also be sure J-10B will fit with more powerful engine than AL-31FN(ws-10a /future more likely WS-15)

I never questioned ever improvising J10/J10B or J-17. Rather i questioned Pakistan’s distrust in their own collaboration.

Do you indian really believe that J-10B will count on whether or not pakistan can make any deal with other country then hand over the tech to us?

Yes why not! The way you are talking it proves nothing but a nexus and disapproval of a platform by china not inducting itself and another partner who is roaming around clicking deals for better avionics. It think you are enjoying immunity of Pakistan not being critical at this stage due to many reasons but to me there is nothing till today on what both can rely on as war ready product where marketing is a fiction to plan about.

Also It’s not about making it coast effective when both nations are flying more costlier birds. It’s something else which French have seen it.

Russia already stop offering new engine for J-11 since last years(after we signed the Intellectual Property Security Agreement in 2008),we knew WS-10A already be fit in some new j-11B baced on recent pictures, according to some inside sources ,we can be sure the mass production of WS-10A already started this year,but we will still import AL-31FN in the next few years.why?cause we can only produce that many WS-10A per year,new offline J-10A also need engine.also new WS-15 revealed last year(it's been developed for over ten years),WS-15 connects to almost every major projects ,so no matter how much money we input,we will make it real,In this respect WS-15 is much more important than WS-10A

Good on you i am happy to see china working it out. I never questioned your capabilities. The problem is with you Chinese body language and confusion of your partner about this whole issue.

Even though all these may takes other a couple years,but indian should know that every tech i mentioned could be used on JF-17. Personlly i think PLA will also purchase some JF-17 when we two country finish the upgrade,because china still needs thousand of new jets to protect our border.

Have some guts and tell your partner not Indians to trust china and have patience.

if pakistan can make this deal,good,we are happy for them,they can even start upgrating the JF-17 from 2012 ，if this deal cancel,i also don't think they should be overdisappointed, LCA haven't enter servise yet, F-16 capable of confronting SU-30

as TaimiKhan said ,france is a different country,china got lots of tech transfer from them before，i think "china" is just the excuse this time,they just don't want to make a hasty decision before MMRCA deal finish ,do indian really believe that you can get the tech so easily from a complete jet anyway? if that's ture.you guys already saw thousands of BlackHawk flying in our sky

Many ifs !

Unnecessarily beating drums of Chinese supremacy in avionics.

I wish i could tell the future like you, Switched on person like you will do war mongering and drag LCA in it was never expected.

I never said Chinese avionics are bad rather i suggested that your collaboration has made a perfect platform which needs more international recognition. Furthermore i mentioned that Pakistan should continuous its R&D with Chinese help to mature in avionics cause LCA is far away as you said.

I am happy to see your affirmation for Pakistan mucking around in Europe for better avionics; indirectly declaring your so called superior avionics relegated.

A contention always brings the truth out. Just before this news people were talking about how JF-17 has reached a age but after this news even hardcore Chinese nationalist boasting about indigenous R&D are admitting to the fact that we will try anything and retract R&D to make it cost effective etc.

 

[Mani2020]

Its nuffing new...it was somewhere in the mind of many people especially me

Its slap on the face of those people who think French and USA are our sincere allies...its just a beginning just wait and watch wat happens next

India is playing their cards n why wouldnt they b ..if they have freedom to play them rightly in their favour ...its not their fault its our fault n our leaders failure we are not strong internally or externally to play our cards properly against india

who we are ? beggers always begging from US or IMF ...look at our leaders most corrupted people on earth thn who will trust us?neither we have economy nor respect

Its not a new thng that we are facing embargo and blocking of sales we have suffered it since our creation but the most hurting thing is that our politician and military official havnt learned yet ABSURD!...

wat was the purpose of jf-17 to go indigenous but yet we the most stupid people went for european stuff knowing that their emargo will again even hang our own made birds

And i have another news for u members bit off topic but yet wanted to share it

USA has warned Pakistan against the gas pipeline project with Iran and guess wat if Pakistan will stop it we will suffer from more bigger energy crisis and if we will not stop it then guess wat be prepared for another embargo from US and forget about F-16's and related stuff

Cheers to our Leaders and PAF

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

it seems to me that Israelis might have sensed the French love for Dollah, Thats why they offered a deal but as usual we acted like Pak-rabs & missed a Golden chance to get our hands on things like Python-4, Python-5 & Derby, I still don't understand why Israeli offer was turned down, at least we could have looked into it

​

The israeli offer was turned down as the missiles would be prone to shut down if the fight was on , directly from Phalcons

Its easier for the phalcons to jam a missile made in Israel vs Missiles made in China whose technical codes and jaming sequences are not known by the so called Phalcon

When a nation gives Phalcons to India we can't really get stretegic missiles from Israel

As for the gas pipeline it has nothing to do with anything we need energy we asked US we got nothing so Iran

Civilian programs and military programs are two distinct element US got no right to dictate what we shoudl do in energy matters

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The question @ hand should be after this setback

How can we best use our 8 billion USD , remember it is all EURO that the deal was being negotiated in , total of 5-6 billion euros

We could get

2 Billion dollar
100 - J11B Fighters from China 100% Chinese engines , and Avionics

2 Billion dollar
100 - J10B (Chendegu Vipers) 100% Chinese

1-Billion in Pakistan National Avionics development programs

> 2 Billion dollars Grants for Universities to research radars
This should be Pakistan's plan moving forward

>1 Billion dollars for Laser research initiatives in Pakistan for JF17 programs
and other targeting applictions

We have the man power just need money input and this is ideal deal for us self reliance

I mean I don't know why we even bothered with Paying so much cash for Radars ? and Avionics ? Not even full planes ?

Can any one elaborate ? Why ... ?

We Need Pak Avionics Inc., or something I know I saw a 2007 article where our engineers opened up and reassembled a radar 100% success so we need build on that knowledge and develop this field and create engineering jobs

Not dumb dumb jobs like html ... or photoshop we need pure engineering jobs

We need to change our mind set from developing dumb dumb html/photoshop ppl and calling them engineers and really need to develop core coding and software engineering Locally in Pakistan

Every year we develop 5-8% pure genius class people in our local universities they get hired up in Europe/US , we need to retain these people and start some ambitious projects

Like awacs projects, Plane signiture detection code , radar signal processing etc
tracking code for objects of interest , code used in planes to detect friendly birds in air vs enemy crafts, software to tack ground targets pattern matches on ground images

Put in 1-2 Billion dollars, open tenders and bring in consultants home from Europe and Get them to build Avionics in Pakistan with 40,000-50,000 engineers

 

[jagjitnatt]

The question @ hand should be after this setback

How can we best use our 8 billion USD , remember it is all EURO that the deal was being negotiated in , total of 5-6 billion euros

We could get

2 Billion dollar
100 - J11B Fighters from China 100% Chinese engines , and Avionics

2 Billion dollar
100 - J10B (Chendegu Vipers) 100% Chinese

1-Billion in Pakistan National Avionics development programs

> 2 Billion dollars Grants for Universities to research radars
This should be Pakistan's plan moving forward

>1 Billion dollars for Laser research initiatives in Pakistan for JF17 programs
and other targeting applictions

We have the man power just need money input and this is ideal deal for us self reliance

I mean I don't know why we even bothered with Paying so much cash for Radars ? and Avionics ? Not even full planes ?

Can any one elaborate ? Why ... ?

We Need Pak Avionics Inc., or something I know I saw a 2007 article where our engineers opened up and reassembled a radar 100% success so we need build on that knowledge and develop this field and create engineering jobs

cause its not $8 million. Its just $1.6 million and that too not hard cash, but loan.

You are being super optimistic.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

cause its not $8 million. Its just $1.6 million and that too not hard cash, but loan.

You are being super optimistic.

Sorry jagjutnaat sing sab , this was 4-5 billion euros

We are owed 50 billion due to war loses - and we have less population so its obvious we can do more with our funds

Well R&D is not hard when you divide the task with 50-60 companies over a short period of time no one company makes 100% of all systems in planes , its normally group of companies that build small subsystems with multi million dollar tenders

Over time they refine the work with enhancements

Its 1000% doable

What we need is a clear mind set -
ok we are doing this 100 % and lets do it - get it done

Pakistani Engineers are working in all areas of engineering every imaginable capacity
the difference is their skills are being used by companies overseas not locally , and we need to change that - we retain our engineering 5-10% top genius level talent, the
html/photoshop ppl can go work in Middle east but I am talking about the top 5-10% talent in Pakistan who can build a full 3D environment for fun or school projects

We need an approach ok , we get 100 J10B , and 100 J11 with Chinese Avionics wonderful defence need is met but we also build out own avionics so we can sell our own planes with these- This is the appropriate response to lobbying

I mean after that induction of J10B and J11B models what happens happen - not like we will need more planes, and we need to move into applied sciences

Time to move on our own radars and avionics 40,000-50,000 engineering jobs for Avionics industry with 2-3 billion dollar Investment by Pakistan

The knowledge we will gain will not only be used in Thunder it can be used in future modernization of our military assets -

Tanks/Ships/Sub so its a transferrable knowledge

I see it complete money wasted on routinely giving 5-10 billion dollars to other countries when we can pemenently gain the knowledge by investing 3-4 billion dollar and few consecutive years of research

 

[IceCold]

I can understand the disappointment of Pakistani members of course, but don't blame it on India pressure only!

No there is no disappointment because this isnt the end of the world and where did you get this impression that i am blaming India, infact i said the very opposite" India alone could not have pulled this one". Perhaps you need to read a bit more.

 

[Cityboy]

Frankly, speaking -IF ,Indian diplomacy could not stop Russia to sell Engines for JF-17 , how can we stop France from doing so? ? ?.Its not in our power - France is a Powerful nation And Has been selling Agousta subs, Mirage-3+Mirage-5 to Pakistan since decades and i read recently PN is also interested in purchasing 3-7 subs from France, if we had any say in world order , we would have stopped Agousta also .And even if Economy is considered - we are talking about 300 JF17 not some 10-20 machines.Mirage-2000 upgrade is costing India nearing 40 million per piece, i am sure Pakistan would want similar package of radar and missiles if not less , calculating will give us figure something 10 billion Pakistan would want similar package of radar and missiles if not less , calculating will give us figure something 10 billion why would France kill it.There have been no statement from Indian foreign affairs ministry or Defense-ministry or credible people to stop JF-17 upgrade , its just mere speculation of Journos and media.If you have any statement from INDIAN side , plz post it i would be more than thankful.Only one objecting to this is US who suspect Technology leak to China.Even they themselves are selling F16b52 to PAK so its a bit trivial/Double game by themMy understanding is similar to Reuters - That it has something to do with Pricing.Remember Your Journos have been quoting price of JF-17 approx 17-20 mill , Remember Your Journos have been quoting price of JF-17 approx 17-20 mill , as its biggest advantages. If you add French component there is no way JF-17 will be cheap ( Just see the upgrade price of Indian old Mirages; 40mill per piece and not even a new engine in that , which bring its upgrade price same as 2 Brand-new JF17 ,Note French system are costly and they rarely compromise on price , adding French system would have made JF17 costly by atleast 70-80% more if not more)That's reason for Upholding.You are taking India way too seriously - Our country dosen't have say in Decision of bigger powers like USA+France+UK. If they see a profit they will sell to Pakistan which is by no means a small Defence market which is by no means a small Defence marketThinking tht France stooped a deal of billions for mere 10-15mill in total of IFF to MIG29, i mean its next to impossible.

 

[Tomahawk]

Pakistan should learn a lesson from this french attitude, and should say no to French Marlins and cancel the Naval delegation visit to france which is due on April 27, and should go with the U-214 submarines. May be it could be one of french tactics to secure Marlin deal first by putting pressure and putting on hold the JF-17 avionics deal.
French have lust for money they know we can get something better than Marlins so they kept on pressurizing to buy their subs, and at the same time they are reluctant to offer Pakistan the avionics for JF-17; which Pakistan requires.

 

[karan.1970]

Since when did you start thinking Pakistan's enemy was some dignified enemy? Gone are the days when some one used to give his/her opponent a fair chance. Here Chankia's pholosphy is being followed who used to preach,

"if you want to kill somebody, become friend with him and when you can, back-stab him, then sit on his dead body and weep that somebody killed your best friend"..

In a more civilized text..

A soldier's job is to fight without caring for his life
A diplomat's job is to make that fight as one sided as possible..