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JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

The Indians have upgraded their Mirages and Mig-29s basically to the same standard as our F-16s, except where they have access to a lot more weaponry from both France and Israel that we don't have available to us. Their Su-30s are next in line and the incoming Rafale is of course ahead of the pack in both air forces. People here downplay the IAF for their own ego or content but PAF definitely does not. It is well aware of the challenge it will be facing and it is very professional about facing it.

Do people remember the first leaked phone call after Op Swift Retort where S/L Hassan is telling his old IP that basically they were basically successful due to Gods grace and He had kept their honor intact. PAF went in not 100% certain of what the IAF response would be, or whether they would come out of it unscathed or not. To me, it means they were willing to take a risk and potential losses if it came to that, but made preparations to the best of their ability. And even after the operation, were not boastful but humble.

JF-17 Block 3 will be more or less on par with other 4th gen aircraft in the IAF or around the world, including their LCA. It will have some area in the flight regime where it will perform better than its opponent and others where it will not have the upper hand. Same would apply to its electronics, radars, weapons, and serviceability.
I don't think anyone is downplaying the iaf at all. We are simply basing it on the available facts...be it BVR or WVR, how can the rafale possibly survive against a 200KM range PL-15 in BVR engagement or a HOBS PL-10 in WVR engagement? I mean just think about it...in BVR engagement, multiple PL-15 hounding down a single rafale, how long can the poor rafale possibly maneuver? even if its internal ecm some how saves it and brings it the fight down to the wire in a WVR engagement, the JF-17s would barely have to maneuver, so as long as the rafale falls within the PAF pilots' views, they simply have to turn their heads, look and shoot, its game over for the rafale with fantashtik tea waiting for the poor indian bugger if he manages to bail out on time...
 
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I don't think anyone is downplaying the iaf at all. We are simply basing it on the available facts...be it BVR or WVR, how can the rafale possibly survive against a 200KM range PL-15 in BVR engagement or a HOBS PL-10 in WVR engagement? I mean just think about it...in BVR engagement, multiple PL-15 hounding down a single rafale, how long can the poor rafale possibly maneuver? even if its internal ecm some how saves it and brings it the fight down to the wire in a WVR engagement, the JF-17s would barely have to maneuver, so as long as the rafale falls within the PAF pilots' views, they simply have to turn their heads, look and shoot, its game over for the rafale with fantashtik tea waiting for the poor indian bugger if he manages to bail out on time...
Take the 200km with a grain of salt. That is not the weapon engagement zone by any means.
As far as HOBs short ranged missiles go, they already have asraam and other European options in service as well as being a long time user of highly effective Russian IR missiles and helmet mounted sights.
 
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Take the 200km with a grain of salt. That is not the weapon engagement zone by any means.
As far as HOBs short ranged missiles go, they already have asraam and other European options in service as well as being a long time user of highly effective Russian IR missiles and helmet mounted sights.
well even the u.s. navy acknowledges the 200km range of the PL-15 as a threat to their carrier born aircrafts. the PL-10 and the asraam are pretty comparable with the PL-10 having a slight edge in range of 10KM, asraam's range is 50km while the PL-10's range, albeit kept secret officially, is speculated to have a range of 60km depending on the altitude when launched.
 
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Please DO NOT underestimate the Indians !! The situation we are in is frankly PAF's own creation! On Feb 27, PAF had the opportunity to sink IAF for at least a decade by shooting down ALL the 12-jets which were on their lock. But they decided NOT to do it. PAF has given indians TIME TO REDEME THEMSELVES !! A huge mistake by PAF I have to say !!
Just imagine if PAF would have shot down MKIs, Mirage-2000s, Migs, etc. It would have psychological and technically devastated the IAF !! But PAF leadership CHOOSE THE EASY path. Youtube videos self-praising and blabbering on like is NOT going to change the ground realities.
To be honest this is a fallacy. Shooting 2 vs 12 aircraft would not make any difference in the long run. Their modernization drive would have been there regardless if we shot more aircraft or not. On top of that, if 6 of those 12 were Mig-21s, well they don't really amount to much either.
 
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To be honest this is a fallacy. Shooting 2 vs 12 aircraft would not make any difference in the long run. Their modernization drive would have been there regardless if we shot more aircraft or not. On top of that, if 6 of those 12 were Mig-21s, well they don't really amount to much either.

If you think 2 vs 12 DOES NOT make any difference, then GOOD LUCK with you thinking. Your post pretty much sums up how illogical you sound.
 
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If you think 2 vs 12 DOES NOT make any difference, then GOOD LUCK with you thinking. Your post pretty much sums up how illogical you sound.
Really, how so? If PAF had shot down 12 IAF aircraft, would they not be modernizing at the same or even faster scale? Help me understand please.
 
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On 27 Feb, PAF taught IAF what and where were the gaps in the defenses and what exactly was outdated and needed replacement. IAF is a quick LEARNER, with deep pockets. If they can't handle PAF, how would be able to handle PLAAF ?
 
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PAF has given indians TIME TO REDEME THEMSELVES !! A huge mistake by PAF I have to say !!
It is a mistake that makes you experienced for next time. The opportunity once missed, is gone forever.
PAF humiliated indians on that day, but gave them an option for rationality and better senses to live and let live.
India is not opting that course of peaceful living, Rather It has thrown all its resources to buy more weapons and technology to suppress Pakistan. sense of arrogance and pride has not vanished yet, they are angry and desperate at this humiliation and lurking for opportunity to revenge.

Their despair and desire is not hidden from us, we have to prepare a grand feast besides tea this time.
 
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The Indians have upgraded their Mirages and Mig-29s basically to the same standard as our F-16s, except where they have access to a lot more weaponry from both France and Israel that we don't have available to us. Their Su-30s are next in line and the incoming Rafale is of course ahead of the pack in both air forces. People here downplay the IAF for their own ego or content but PAF definitely does not. It is well aware of the challenge it will be facing and it is very professional about facing it.

Do people remember the first leaked phone call after Op Swift Retort where S/L Hassan is telling his old IP that basically they were basically successful due to Gods grace and He had kept their honor intact. PAF went in not 100% certain of what the IAF response would be, or whether they would come out of it unscathed or not. To me, it means they were willing to take a risk and potential losses if it came to that, but made preparations to the best of their ability. And even after the operation, were not boastful but humble.

JF-17 Block 3 will be more or less on par with other 4th gen aircraft in the IAF or around the world, including their LCA. It will have some area in the flight regime where it will perform better than its opponent and others where it will not have the upper hand. Same would apply to its electronics, radars, weapons, and serviceability.

We should at least try to integrate the Turkish BVR and High off bore sight WVR missiles onto our F-16s. If it can exceed the capabilities of the Aim-120C5 and Aim-9 we operate, we should starting buying a few hundred and create an option that allows us to purchase hundreds more from Turkish stocks in the event of heighten tensions or war.

Integration of Turkish weapons into our F-16s needs to be a sticking point when military to military discussions happen between Pakistan and the US. If not we should find a way to put a datalink pod on our F-16s and fly them alongside AESA equipped fighters, so they can carry the Turkish Missiles. It’s not a substitute, but it still allows the F-16s some growth potential if they can’t be upgraded the standard way.
 
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We should at least try to integrate the Turkish BVR and High off bore sight WVR missiles onto our F-16s. If it can exceed the capabilities of the Aim-120C5 and Aim-9 we operate, we should starting buying a few hundred and create an option that allows us to purchase hundreds more from Turkish stocks in the event of heighten tensions or war.

Integration of Turkish weapons into our F-16s needs to be a sticking point when military to military discussions happen between Pakistan and the US.
We can not integrate anything on the F-16s without approval from the US. That will not be coming. Use those same missiles on JF-17 instead which are more numerous as well.
However, if we are going to want to have discussions with the US on weapon integration on F-16s it should be for A-G cruise missiles instead. AIM-9s and -120s we have right now should suffice for that fleet. Its in the long range air-ground role where it is lacking.
 
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There are other factors in place. The more the missiles you carry externally the more RCS you have besides compromising your range and maneuverability, no matter how advanced your airframe is.

1 fighter with 2 BVRs being detectable at 80km is much superior than 1 fighter with 6 BVRs detected at 120km, even if missiles are similar. The one with the lower RCS will have first shoot capability as well as greater accuracy, which is what happened in F-16 Vs SU-30MKI situation during Swift retort despite Sukhoi's having R-77 which has similar range to the Aim-120. Add data linking to several fighters to share radar data to hide numbers and it gets more complex. A aircraft with radar on can be detected at further distances by opponent as well.

On paper might sound clear but its not a video game, where having more ammo, that can shoot further is clear superiority.

The large loadout configuration suites in conditions were your bases are far apart and expected to operate without backup or back up would take too long to reach. This is Russian air doctrine. For PAF our bases are near and it operates on force multiplier doctrine, that is multiple platforms working together.

The bold part is factually wrong. The version of R-77 India has a lower range than Aim-120C. This is the only reason PAF was able to get IAF back off as PAF had better BVRs. That's also the reason mirage turned back as they would be sitting ducks for PAF. PAF had AWACS, Dassault ECM in the air, F16 and JF17 loaded up which had better BVRs. So overall PAF had the upper hand in the skirmish.

I am grateful that Indians are a bit more complacent than Pakistan.

For JF 4(BVR)+2(WVR) would be the ideal number. 2x is not a good situation to be in. If the case is as you are describing PAF F16s would be using the same loadout of(2+2) but it's not the case.

Regards
 
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To be honest this is a fallacy. Shooting 2 vs 12 aircraft would not make any difference in the long run. Their modernization drive would have been there regardless if we shot more aircraft or not. On top of that, if 6 of those 12 were Mig-21s, well they don't really amount to much either.
Our focus should shift a bit.

I don't think a favourable kill ratio ever favoured Pakistan from a strategic standpoint. So, even if the PAF gets a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio in its favour against the IAF, Pakistan can run into a stalemate or loss in a war.

Pakistan needs to think about how it can deprecate India's air and air defence capabilities. In this sense, the Pakistani military needs to develop a strong understanding of how to use drones, guided land-based rockets, loitering munitions, etc. It should also look at using the Ra'ad-series as a basis for decoys and area-wide SOW applications (e.g., deploy loitering munitions over an area).

There was a retired Pak Army general a short while ago who said we should build a fleet of 300 JF-17s. Sounds nuts, but I think that's the right line of thought. But I'd qualify it by adding that we need to get the JF-17 to deploy a more diverse line-up of air-to-surface munitions, e.g., ALCMs, loitering munitions, area-wide attack SOWs, etc. Moreover, a 300-strong fleet could also be a way to have enough jets to use for joint air-and-land operations against enemy ADGE, for example.
 
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Program rate has been slow should have completed in 2015

  • 2009-2015 , 250 planes , Block 1 50 Units , Block 2 100 Units , Block 3 100 Units
  • 2015-2020 , should have been Modifications and enhancements

5 year Too Slow

  • Enemy is already loading up with Next Generation Crafts
 
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