JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[messiach]

You need the fabtech backbone for AFBO before all that.

I think it is a mistake to go with a J-31 style frame. It would have been much better to go with a Mirage III/V basic layout - a simple delta. Would be stealthy from the basic shape itself. A small internal bay and twin RD-33s. A simple design like this could be developed in far less time and with far less resources.

We would basically then have a Carver like plane, what South Africa originally wanted to design. This plane would be the best plane for low level strike in the planet, flying insanely low, given the excellent characteristics of the Mirage III/V/2000 for low level penetration (PAF even managed to "sink" an aircraft carrier in a mock battle with USN using this special tactic of the Mirage).

You would also have a platform that is simple, robuts and cheap to produce. From an air combat perspective, it would provide an ideal airframe for BVR combat from a high altitude and high speed vantage which would make it deadly in that role. Such a plane would also have been the perfect complement to JF-17s and F-16s (if not MiG-35s).

You would basically use a larger and more powerful version of the avionics, EW and radar going into the Block 3, keeping development simple.

@MastanKhan @airomerix @Khafee @denel @messiach (and any others) would love your input on this.

@PakAlp

 

[Armchair]

You need the fabtech backbone for AFBO before all that.

messiach, your one liners are real gold but sometimes we don't fully understand what you mean : )
Here is my best guess:
Fabtech: Fabrication technology, to fabricate parts for a prototype (can we not outsource what we can't do to China?)
AFBO: No idea what this means, above my technical ability

I wonder if you mean that we don't have the ability to do this without Chinese support and China wouldn't be interested in lending that support, but rather take a Chinese solution with modifications...

 

[python-000]

Plz put every thing aside & just show 1 pic of final design of JF-17 block 3 first...

India is very experienced in such projects.

yes bro, we both know very well about there experiences from around the world...

 

[Darth Vader]

Problem is Pakistan needs a platform which will go against superior air crafts so thunder atleast needs to hold its own against the western and Russian weapon systems
So just cant simple cheap out.
To Maintain Low cost to performance ratio Pakistan should build Few Dedicated Squadrons
With Specific Roles as instead of Adding AESA configurations to everyplane.
They can add few birds with squadern and rest will use DataLink. That will be quickest and cheapest way to make all most all the Thunder Squads With Aesa and better EW chances
And than they can upgrade rest later frol block 1 to block 3 directly and increase the life span of air frame with mid life upgrades

 

[messiach]

Assissted fly-by-optiks.

AFBO: No idea what this means, above my technical ability

 

[Armchair]

Assissted fly-by-optiks.

Modify the J-10's? Or Look at the control algorithms of the M-2000?

 

[TheTallGuy]

Project Azm = Pakistani Version of J31 this is the most logical and possible scenario. every other thing said or talked about is gearing up to Manufacture and license produce.

Built & license produce WS19 Engines
Built & license produce Avionics and weapons.
Developed war fighting Technical know how of 5th Generation Aircraft.

this above points are possible in reality! these options mentioned above themselves are huge mountains to climb!

Any other like clean sheet design that require expertise, money and Technical Technological base in every possible department of aviation which i am sorry to say Pakistan does not have.

if it turn out to be clean sheet we shall design and built over selves a 5th generation jet in reality it will be modern day HAL Tejas! biggest money eating worm hole in the world (Scam of sorts!)

So a Pakistani Version of J31 is Project Azm!

 

[PakAlp]

Project Azm = Pakistani Version of J31 this is the most logical and possible scenario. every other thing said or talked about is gearing up to Manufacture and license produce.

Built & license produce WS19 Engines
Built & license produce Avionics and weapons.
Developed war fighting Technical know how of 5th Generation Aircraft.

this above points are possible in reality! these options mentioned above themselves are huge mountains to climb!

Any other like clean sheet design that require expertise, money and Technical Technological base in every possible department of aviation which i am sorry to say Pakistan does not have.

if it turn out to be clean sheet we shall design and built over selves a 5th generation jet in reality it will be modern day HAL Tejas! biggest money eating worm hole in the world (Scam of sorts!)

So a Pakistani Version of J31 is Project Azm!

Makes sense and also where would we get 50+billion to start our own 5th generation fighter project. We cannot afford to buy brand new f16s. Where would we get the technology from? We can't just invent technology.

The most likely scenario like you've mentioned is the J31 or a new Chinese 5th generation project as the J31 project has been delayed. So we have to play the waiting game until the Chinese military officially announces an export version of the 5th generation. This way we can do a JF project and license build it in Pakistan. I think this is the only scenario. This will be our project AZM.

We also need another 5th generation fighter plane as we cannot just have 1 plane and so we are waiting for 2023 when Turkey will fly their tfx.
If that goes well then we will induct one multirole plane with Chinese/Pakistani spec and one western Turkish spec air supperiority plane.

Our airforce would look like:
100 project AZM (more numbers as they will be cheaper)
50 Tfx (expensive)
150 jf17 block 3 (older planes will be retired)
50 f16 (older planes will be retired)

Total 350 planes till 2050

 

[Trango Towers]

composite repair is pain any composite is at least 24 to 48 aircraft cannot fly for 48 hr

Usually you have panels ready. Remember the design of the jf17 is modular.

Makes sense and also where would we get 50+billion to start our own 5th generation fighter project. We cannot afford to buy brand new f16s. Where would we get the technology from? We can't just invent technology.

The most likely scenario like you've mentioned is the J31 or a new Chinese 5th generation project as the J31 project has been delayed. So we have to play the waiting game until the Chinese military officially announces an export version of the 5th generation. This way we can do a JF project and license build it in Pakistan. I think this is the only scenario. This will be our project AZM.

We also need another 5th generation fighter plane as we cannot just have 1 plane and so we are waiting for 2023 when Turkey will fly their tfx.
If that goes well then we will induct one multirole plane with Chinese/Pakistani spec and one western Turkish spec air supperiority plane.

Our airforce would look like:
100 project AZM (more numbers as they will be cheaper)
50 Tfx (expensive)
150 jf17 block 3 (older planes will be retired)
50 f16 (older planes will be retired)

Total 350 planes till 2050

Pakistan doesnt spend that kind of money. 50 billion because the west over does things. Wages are high as is the cost of design and development. this is where the east comes into it's own

 

[Beethoven]

Nothing is going to change except avionics and Radar

A three axis FBW might be on the cards in order to reduce weight and improve agility....

 

[Tempest II]

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1150866.shtml

China delivers first overhauled JF-17 fighter jet to Pakistan: report
By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2019/5/21 17:14:40
0

A Pakistani JF-17 Thunder fighter jet arrives at a Chinese airport to take part in the "Shaheen VI" joint training exercises in China, September 7, 2017. Photo: Xinhua



The close cooperation between China and Pakistan was highlighted by the recent delivery of the first overhauled JF-17 fighter jet under a project that experts said on Tuesday will benefit Pakistan's aviation industry.

Changsha 5712 Aircraft Industry Co Ltd under the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) reassembled the overhauled JF-17 and delivered it to its Pakistani client in March, China Aviation News revealed on Monday.

This is also the first time AVIC has overhauled a made-for-export third generation fighter, or fourth generation according to another widely used standard, the report said.

"The first [JF-17] overhaul marks an important milestone [in the JF-17 project]," Fu Qianshao, a Chinese air defense expert, told the Global Times on Tuesday.

The first overhaul represents the trial-and-error phase of the project and provided experience in establishing standards for other JF-17 overhauls in the future, according to Fu.

Jointly developed and manufactured by China and Pakistan, the single-engine multi-role light fighter jet JF-17 made its maiden flight in 2003. The first JF-17s were delivered to Pakistani clients in 2007 and a number of them were later commissioned by the Pakistan Air Force. After a decade of use, it was time for the first JF-17s to undergo overhauls, military analysts said.

A contract was signed in 2016 and the first overhaul started in November 2017. The overhauled aircraft made its first test flight in October 2018, reports said.

An overhaul includes major maintenance featuring repairs and replacement of old components including the airframe and engine, said Fu. While standard, regular maintenance could be done by the military, an overhaul usually needs to be conducted by a designated and more capable supplier due to higher complexity, he said.

Such an overhaul can ensure flight safety after years of use, Fu said. It might also equip the aircraft with newer technologies that enhance its capability, or prolong the aircraft's lifespan, he said.

The experienced overhaul team at AVIC used a reliability-oriented maintenance model, keeping the maintenance cycle short and costs low, the China Aviation News report said.

Pakistan sent dozens of trainees to China, who had close communication and built deep friendships with Chinese engineers during the overhaul process, the report said.

Fu said since procedures and standards for the overhaul have been established, future overhauls on other JF-17s could be done by Pakistani personnel.

"Under the framework of China-Pakistan cooperation, Pakistan's aviation industry will continue to develop," Fu noted.

A Block 3 variant of the JF-17 is under development, which is expected to be much more powerful than the previous two blocks thanks to a new China-developed active electronically scanned array radar, reports said.

 

[messiach]

I did'nt get you atall.

Modify the J-10's? Or Look at the control algorithms of the M-2000?

 

[Armchair]

I did'nt get you atall.

I meant that to develop a fly by wire (or as you stated, more appropriately today, fly by optics), for a pure delta, would be something difficult to do and be a technical challenge. In that case, it may perhaps help to look at the Mirage 2000's fly by wire system, or even the J-10s.

 

[Akasa]

Interesting comment from a Chinese "insider" in response to the Mirage vs JF-17 scene from the new Sherdil movie:

等到枭龙3装备，阵风都不惧，更不怕幻影2000

Translation: "Wait for the [JF-17] Block 3, which will be fearless in front of the Rafale, much less of the Mirage-2000."

Link: https://www.weibo.com/3762825331/HuVyKbwDJ

 

[NA71]

Interesting comment from a Chinese "insider" in response to the Mirage vs JF-17 scene from the new Sherdil movie:


Translation: "Wait for the [JF-17] Block 3, which will be fearless in front of the Rafale, much less of the Mirage-2000."

Link: https://www.weibo.com/3762825331/HuVyKbwDJ

more interesting comments "带着副油箱打空战。。。。。醉咯 -Fight with air in the auxiliary tank. . . . . Drunk"