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JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

@CriticalThought advised you before as well that we are not here to shove down our opinion or knowledge upon others. Secondly, getting personal, name calling others or disrespecting anyone jus because of a disagreement is not appreciated here. The Quality of Forum is to be maintained hence, you are not allowed in thread for a specific time.

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Good post, but I wish you had not written this.

You are right and I regret posting this but my point was not to insult Indians to be honest. It was to say that the Indian trolls would support such simplistic measure of ramjet vs dual pulse because they want their Meteor to sound more terrifying. I should have said, one Indian member supports it because he wants Meteor to sound better and supports the inaccurate idea that ramjet missile always has greater NEZ than dual pulse which is hard to say.

Meteor is a good missile and definitely better than SD-10. Whether it is better than PL-12 is likely but better than PL-15 is difficult to say. They will each have their own advantages for flight performance but PL-15 uses more modern and advanced technology seekers until Meteor ones are upgraded to AESA.

I should remind that ramjet is old and very basic and simple technology. There is no "advanced ramjet" no such thing. There are more efficient ramjets maybe but that depends on cone design and aerodynamics of the intakes.

On aerodynamics and ramjet design, I do not believe for 1 second France can possibly be more ahead by any great distance. China has had ramjet technology for a long time and ramjet has not changed too much. Fuel type may have changed and materials but it is roughly a mach 3 engine at high end of speed. Kub missile is below mach 3 as max speed. The only thing we cannot be sure of is Meteor's true range. It could be much longer than PL-15 and that's why it could have greater NEZ. The sustained speed, average speed, and instanteous speed at certain critical moments all depends on many factors but none say ramjet has better NEZ. The greatest question on this is what each type of missile's fuel and total energy is in exact same launch and target parameters.

Ramjet is not hard technology anymore. Some good engineers, some good industrial experience, some good academic institutions and developers who have the experience and have access to funding and wind tunnels with supercomputers. I feel Chinese teams can build and test 1000 prototypes while French team can test 10. The industrial scale and cost is totally to wide. This also isn't a technology problem at all. Ramjet is one of the simplest engine types.

Why PLAAF and USAF do not currently use ramjet powered BVR air to air missiles and Chinese and American weapons developers do not develop them is NOT because of lack of technology or experience. I say this but maybe PLAAF has some ramjet powered very long range air to air missiles intended for anti-radiation or some purposes like that against large and slow targets. They must have determined whatever advantage of ramjet for PL-12 class missiles is simply not worth the extra cost and complexity.
 
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Why is China showing this mounted on a Delta? Does anyone recognise the Delta or is it a generic picture or is China working on Developing a Delta and this is its first unofficial unveiling? (we all know PAF's liking of Delta's )

IMHO, the aircraft models are not to be taken seriously. Firstly, because the subject is the missile, not the aircraft. Secondly, notice the delta's rudder which reminds me of J-10, but the Fuselage & wings are like a Mirage's. I would not read too much into it really.
 
IMHO, the aircraft models are not to be taken seriously. Firstly, because the subject is the missile, not the aircraft. Secondly, notice the delta's rudder which reminds me of J-10, but the Fuselage & wings are like a Mirage's. I would not read too much into it really.
Probably an indication that the PAF wants this missile on its Mirage aircraft, because it is still the primary strike platform.
 
Probably an indication that the PAF wants this missile on its Mirage aircraft, because it is still the primary strike platform.
IMHO unlikely, if it is cleared for JF-17 and indeed JF-17 can haul it then no need for PAF to go the M-III/V route since as a legacy aircraft it is well past it prime and only soldering on due to necessity.
 
NEZ discussion: Can people drop in the relevant formulae so we can have a more conclusive debate.

Formula for Aircraft Thrust, weight, lift, drag relationship?

Potential Energy formulae: starting with chemical energy? We can talk about things like given same dimensions, given a ramjet doesnt carry the oxider we can expect 1.8x the chemical energy

I suspect NEZ will have something to draw from Boyds Energy theory as well, again relevant formula/ formulae from there?
 
IMHO unlikely, if it is cleared for JF-17 and indeed JF-17 can haul it then no need for PAF to go the M-III/V route since as a legacy aircraft it is well past it prime and only soldering on due to necessity.
The mirages have a top speed of Mach 2.2 and are already configured (both structurally and avionics) to haul an anti ship missile out to engage the enemy. We just don’t have enough JF-17 to take over this role, so employing them from the Mirages is probably a stop-gap option.
 
The mirages have a top speed of Mach 2.2 and are already configured (both structurally and avionics) to haul an anti ship missile out to engage the enemy. We just don’t have enough JF-17 to take over this role, so employing them from the Mirages is probably a stop-gap option.
Mach 2.2 in clean config and high altitude then sure, while hauling couple of AIM-9's, but once loaded with Ra'ad, H-2s or now the HD-1A, nothing but 60s/70s Bradford truck loaded to the hilt.

Yes numbers is the issue, but why go spend $ to integrate something as Stop-Gap ? when you know they are headed to scrap yard in near future.
 
Mach 2.2 in clean config and high altitude then sure, while hauling couple of AIM-9's, but once loaded with Ra'ad, H-2s or now the HD-1A, nothing but 60s/70s Bradford truck loaded to the hilt.

Yes numbers is the issue, but why go spend $ to integrate something as Stop-Gap ? when you know they are headed to scrap yard in near future.

True. Maybe it’s a marketing ploy for Mirage 2000 operators.

Also probably better for the PAF to start cranking out a lot more Block 3 JF-17s, as the last ACM had hoped is done.

In the mean time, the next best thing for the JF-17 will probably be a WS-19 (max thrust in the 120 kn range) based on technology from the WS-15 (max thrust 180-200 on) by the end of the decade. Thrust to weight ratios that will enable it to rival the F-16 in all parameters except maybe range, depending on the efficiency of the engine.
 
Why is China showing this mounted on a Delta? Does anyone recognise the Delta or is it a generic picture or is China working on Developing a Delta and this is its first unofficial unveiling? (we all know PAF's liking of Delta's )


This delta is clearly a Mirage 2000 and maybe a hint that it is for export even if I cannot think their aim is to export it to Taiwan and/or India.
 
You are right and I regret posting this but my point was not to insult Indians to be honest. It was to say that the Indian trolls would support such simplistic measure of ramjet vs dual pulse because they want their Meteor to sound more terrifying. I should have said, one Indian member supports it because he wants Meteor to sound better and supports the inaccurate idea that ramjet missile always has greater NEZ than dual pulse which is hard to say.

Meteor is a good missile and definitely better than SD-10. Whether it is better than PL-12 is likely but better than PL-15 is difficult to say. They will each have their own advantages for flight performance but PL-15 uses more modern and advanced technology seekers until Meteor ones are upgraded to AESA.

I should remind that ramjet is old and very basic and simple technology. There is no "advanced ramjet" no such thing. There are more efficient ramjets maybe but that depends on cone design and aerodynamics of the intakes.

On aerodynamics and ramjet design, I do not believe for 1 second France can possibly be more ahead by any great distance. China has had ramjet technology for a long time and ramjet has not changed too much. Fuel type may have changed and materials but it is roughly a mach 3 engine at high end of speed. Kub missile is below mach 3 as max speed. The only thing we cannot be sure of is Meteor's true range. It could be much longer than PL-15 and that's why it could have greater NEZ. The sustained speed, average speed, and instanteous speed at certain critical moments all depends on many factors but none say ramjet has better NEZ. The greatest question on this is what each type of missile's fuel and total energy is in exact same launch and target parameters.

Ramjet is not hard technology anymore. Some good engineers, some good industrial experience, some good academic institutions and developers who have the experience and have access to funding and wind tunnels with supercomputers. I feel Chinese teams can build and test 1000 prototypes while French team can test 10. The industrial scale and cost is totally to wide. This also isn't a technology problem at all. Ramjet is one of the simplest engine types.

Why PLAAF and USAF do not currently use ramjet powered BVR air to air missiles and Chinese and American weapons developers do not develop them is NOT because of lack of technology or experience. I say this but maybe PLAAF has some ramjet powered very long range air to air missiles intended for anti-radiation or some purposes like that against large and slow targets. They must have determined whatever advantage of ramjet for PL-12 class missiles is simply not worth the extra cost and complexity.

A clue might be in terms of more efficient propellants available for rockets that make ramjets (and their associated extra weight) less and less relevant.

Bear in mind there is a tradeoff between range and accuracy as well. You could technically have a 400km AAM but what is the targeting complexity required along with need from the launch platform to maintain a lock or a datalink update to be kept going. The idea is that the tradeoff on accuracy will diminish as you longer and longer in terms of range.

Finally, LO & EW tech has pushed that range question away to faster time to target and high maneuvering.
CUDA is the next step for the USAF with range that mirrors the AIM-120B but its a smaller size and hit to kill focus to allow carriage of more missiles.
The replacement for Amraam is likely not going to be a ramjet because all industry hints point to more efficient propellant available that gets you the same range from a rocket motor versus the added weight from a ramjet type.
 
NEZ discussion: Can people drop in the relevant formulae so we can have a more conclusive debate.

Formula for Aircraft Thrust, weight, lift, drag relationship?

Potential Energy formulae: starting with chemical energy? We can talk about things like given same dimensions, given a ramjet doesnt carry the oxider we can expect 1.8x the chemical energy

I suspect NEZ will have something to draw from Boyds Energy theory as well, again relevant formula/ formulae from there?
I have a number of articles and posts from that cover this. I have to dig them out.
 

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