JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[ziaulislam]

Appreciate your reply. Assuming you received an approval from British MoD, can Rolls-Royce engine be retrofitted into JF-17?

Its 5x expensive and not avaialble so noone even tried or will try

 

[Big_bud]

The picture says KLJ7A and F-35 radar have the same performance. But the KLJ7A antenna is only 600mm, while the F35's radar antenna is 800mm. Under the same technical conditions, the larger the antenna area, the better the performance of radar. If radar manufacturers weren't bragging, the KLJ7A would probably be GaN.
View attachment 777998

Yes we can perfectly read it and understand! Thanks for sharing!

 

[iLION12345_1]

Appreciate your reply. Assuming you received an approval from British MoD, can Rolls-Royce engine be retrofitted into JF-17?

Let’s say in an extremely hypothetical scenario where money wasn’t an issue, the engines didn’t have sanction issues and that Pakistan got the same kind of support facilities for these engines As they do for RD93, the answer would still be a resounding no.

Any fighter aircraft is designed around a certain engine, you can maybe make small changes here and there, but you cannot simply put an entirely new engine in it, you’d need to redesign the entire aircraft to fit around that engine, it’s weight, thrust, flight characteristics and so on. Aircraft are designed with the specific engine they will use in mind From the very start And will only be able to fit those specific engines.

 

[Deino]

Appreciate your reply. Assuming you received an approval from British MoD, can Rolls-Royce engine be retrofitted into JF-17?

Besides the additional time and cost for additional integration, testing and certification another issue is, that there is no purely RR engine. I think you have the EJ-200 in mind and this one is build via a European consortion including Germany and Italy … and especially in mind of my countries „unique“ export politics I‘m not sure if a sale would be granted to a CHinese fighter.

 

[Marker]

I checked the news that the US only started preparing to upgrade airborne radars with GaN this year. The first models should be F/A-18. The F-35 is not scheduled to be upgraded until 2025. The US military report in 2016 already mentioned Chinese research in GaN. So there are no Gans currently in service in the US. The KLJ7A is a new product in the last two years, no product is in service, and it is not strange to use GaN. That's about the same amount of time it takes to change into a GaN in the United States.

Chinese must be producing GaN TRMs as they already had the technology since 2016.
Source: https://www.ledinside.com/news/2016/8/chinese_manufacturers_catch_up_in_gan_technology

Though KLJ-7A manufacturers did not disclosed use of GaN, but its usage in the radar is very much possible. Use of GaN will reduce power requirement which is already scarce in case of JF-17.

As for EODAS and datalink etc, I don't think BLK3 has it. But these technologies are already in service on the J20. It's just a question of money. After all, BLK3 opted for a single-array air-cooled radar instead of the better three-array radar.

In March 2019, Yang Wei, chief designer of the China-Pakistan co-developed fighter jet, said development and production of the JF-17 Block 3 were underway, and the third block will see the JF-17's information-based warfare capability and weapons upgraded.
Source: https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1175376.shtml
Availability of datalink and situation awareness is part of Blk 3.

JF-17 has to use fixed KLJ-7A radar. This radar has 1000 TRMs and will require power around 30 to 40 kW. KLJ-7A with side arrays has 1200 additional TRMs on both side arrays. This will increase the power requirement. Considering power limitation in JF-17, fixed version is best possible choice.

 

[serenity]

Actually, its not true. Chinese AESA radar uses Gallium arsenide (GaAs) and American uses Gallium nitride (GaN) in their electronics. American radar is capable with connecting high bandwidth encrypted data link, sensor fusions such as AN/AAQ-37 Electro-Optical Distributed Aperture System. An/APG-83 can communicate with off-board systems and can look-back.

Chinese and Russian radars are yet to achieve any DAS and look-back capability. Why do you think Su-30MKI ran from Kashmir? Su-30MKI has no off-board connection and cannot look-back. Su-30MKI had only hope that its Missile Approach Warning (MAW) systems is working and does not malfunction in-flight.

Pakistani F-16 has off-board connection such as Saab Erieye. Pakistani F-16 does not have sensor fusion but Saab Erieye filled the vacuum of sensor fusions for F-16.

Wrong. China been manufacturing military grade radar use GaN since at least three years ago when J-20 was introduced. J-20 radar was long finished before 2018.

Even today you can buy Chinese made radio frequency GaN modules in commercial fields.

GaN was at least mastered in mid 2010s come on. What evidence do you have that China has not GaN yet? Apart from political bs like China is too behind for something that advanced. Then I'd ask where is China's self produced GaN modules offered for sell to anyone including you coming from?

In fact GaN AESA is old news... way too old these days. Like talking about battery powered cars in 2021.

I'm 99% confident even 2nd generation Chinese AESA have been updated to GaN. Third gen was designed with it.

I checked the news that the US only started preparing to upgrade airborne radars with GaN this year. The first models should be F/A-18. The F-35 is not scheduled to be upgraded until 2025. The US military report in 2016 already mentioned Chinese research in GaN. So there are no Gans currently in service in the US. The KLJ7A is a new product in the last two years, no product is in service, and it is not strange to use GaN. That's about the same amount of time it takes to change into a GaN in the United States.

As for EODAS and datalink etc, I don't think BLK3 has it. But these technologies are already in service on the J20. It's just a question of money. After all, BLK3 opted for a single-array air-cooled radar instead of the better three-array radar.


You don't seem to know that western countries attach many political conditions to exporting weapons. And the Americans forbid their Allies from engaging in technological cooperation with China. Americans have also dropped out of JF17 early.

US wants to upgrade existing radars to GaN. F-22's is developed in the 1990s. Of course the first ones don't have GaN base. US would have GaN around the same timeframe basically they must have been ready around 2018 for designed for GaN units.

 

[Thorough Pro]

some people just don't get it. The "sole" purpose of JF17's birth was to be sanction-free

no need! why would we want to put the entire programme hostage to west!

 

[arjunk]

I wanted to see how people think of the West. Pakistan received more than $35 billion from the U.S. since 9/11. Reference https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R41856.pdf

Half-assed compensation. The US's WoT has cost us $150 billion, 80,000 lives, and many unquantifiable losses.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Good discussion.

You are right some people don't get it that JF-17 still uses Martin Baker Ejection Seats. The British MoD still can sanction Pakistan's JF-17. This was not my point. My point was that JF-17 could have a huge export potential if Pakistan removes Russian baggage from JF-17.

I wanted to see how people think of the West. Pakistan received more than $35 billion from the U.S. since 9/11. Reference https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R41856.pdf

People don't understand sanction when they talk about EU and US sanctions. CAATSA has different purpose not just sanction willy-nilly. Turkey was sanctioned for buying arms from Russia because Turkey is a NATO member. India will be sanctioned for buying S-400 from Russia.

Germany, Italy, France and UK supply arms to all Southeast Asian countries. Pakistan is a democratic country. Pakistan Army is not going to walk into Prime Minister's office and take power. Pakistan is in a complex geopolitical tug of war. Its highly unlikely that Pakistan will be sanctioned for buy Mi-35 helicopter and RD-93MA engine for Russia.

The British MoD cannot sanction JF-17s because in such a case they can simply switch to chinese ejection seats as found on Myanmars JF-17s. PAF just used Martin-baker ones because they’ve got a good history with the company.

 

[Clutch]

wanted to see how people think of the West. Pakistan received more than $35 billion from the U.S. since 9/11. Reference https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R41856.pdf

It's been documented that Pakistan lost over $120 Billion due to the war on terror. So $35 Billion - $120 Billion = -$85Billion in loss.

But that is off topic. However, somewhat related to the financial constraints is the homegrown solution of the JF-17 and in particular the Block-3 with the ASEA and true BVR solution in the -$85 Billion reality...

 

[HRK]

I wanted to see how people think of the West. Pakistan received more than $35 billion from the U.S. since 9/11. Reference https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R41856.pdf

ONLY if you read the document you will find more than half of amount is under the head of Coalition Support Fund (CSF) which is reimbursement of Pakistan's own expenses already made in WOT it was never US money, BTW Pakistan has not receive reimbursement of more than 60% of our own expenses incurred in support of US mission of WOT in Afghanistan TILL TODATE

So plz talk is context ....

 

[ProudPak]

Can anyone comeback to me with rational points why JF-17 cannot be modified and retrofitted with Western engine such as F404 or Rolls-Royce engines. Rolls-Royce engines are modular, more efficient and burns less fuel then any other engines.

The Western engines are more compact than RD-93MA. The length, weight and diameters are not issue here. Mind you, Pakistan still buys vast arrays of Western equipment from France, Sweden, Italy, USA and UK. I want a technical discussion, no political nonsense.

Do u want sanction and the beg the west for stuff again???

 

[The Eagle]

The British MoD still can sanction Pakistan's JF-17.

An ejection seat is not a weapon of mass destruction. There are international ethics as well that bound many countries.

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

An ejection seat is not a weapon of mass destruction. There are international ethics as well that bound many countries.

AoA sir, but they have bound them from buying another jet (can't remember which one ) with the MB ejection seat ?
Could it be that they have Chinese origin seats ?

 

[The Eagle]

AoA sir, but they have bound them from buying another jet (can't remember which one ) with the MB ejection seat ?
Could it be that they have Chinese origin seats ?

MB can't deny Pakistan with seats unless, Brits are totally gone crazy or being infected by zombie apocalypse or lost their mind or even started to act like Indian. For Argentine case, they are already in a war like situation so China must have offered after thorough study.