JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[Deino]

Do you think the WS-15 & WS-19 will mature within the next 5-years for them to be contenders for the AZM project? @Deino

IMO highly unlikely that both will be mature - maybe the WS-15 within the J-20 but unlikely the WS-19 - and even less likely - esp. the WS-15 - that China will offer it to be available for Azm. Eventually Pakistan could get an improved WS-10 variant, but I cannot think that the WS-15 is ready within for years and even less likely for export.

 

[araz]

caatsa needs to be neutralized. trade cannot be allowed to be weapons. best to stop trading with the u.s. & europe, concentrate on increasing trade with China, fast east, Turkey, Russia, Central Asia, Middle East, Africa & South America. u.s. & e.u. & u.s. should be sent a clear message that trade with them will only happen on OUR terms. To do this, we need to weaponize our own economy on a war footing so that every one would want to trade with us.

Would have been perfectly feasible if one were buying items for cash and we were rolling in it. Since we are not and all our trade routes lead to the West we cannot afford to do so. Even if we did we dont have the buying power to be able to make any effective use of this strategy.
A

Thanks. I don’t think engine purchases will trigger CAATSA sanctions. As I understand, it’s geared towards major defense purchases and not simply subsystems like engines, sensors etc.

Do you think the WS-15 & WS-19 will mature within the next 5-years for them to be contenders for the AZM project? @Deino

I have assumed that our fifth generation offering will be the size of J31. The current model runs with 2 rd93. Would it be able to fit 2 AL41s is something I would say is not possible if the fighter is J31 size. If it is larger then by all means. The question still remains we do not have any idea of what the 5th gen fighter is going to look like.
A

 

[KapitaanAli]

WS19 is in the same category as F414 which is being installed in similar category fighters. It would make a lot of sense to have WS19 on JF17.

F414 will not be installed on any similar category fighter.

 

[Deino]

F414 will not be installed on any similar category fighter.

Care to explain? IMO the KF-21 is exactly the same "category fighter" like the FC-31 and uses F414 in the same way the Tejas Mk. 2 will use a variant of the F414, so why should the WS-19 fit the same "category fighter" JF-17?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Would have been perfectly feasible if one were buying items for cash and we were rolling in it. Since we are not and are trade routes all lead to the West we cannot afford to do so. Even if we did we dont have the buying power to be able to make any effective use of this strategy.
A

I have assumed that our fifth generation offering will be the size of J31. The current model runs with 2 rd93. Would it be able to fit 2 AL41s is something I would say is not possible if the fighter is J31 size. If it is larger then by all means. The question still remains we do not have any idea of what the 5th gen fighter is going to look like.
A

The PAF only said it would be twin-engine, but we don't know the size-range yet. Seeing that we had shown interest in the Flanker at various points, a large fighter with a MTOW of 32+ tons is plausible, especially if the idea is to build-out our strike and maritime ops capability.

 

[KapitaanAli]

Care to explain? IMO the KF-21 is exactly the same "category fighter" like the FC-31 and uses F414 in the same way the Tejas Mk. 2 will use a variant of the F414, so why should the WS-19 fit the same "category fighter" JF-17?

TejasMk2 and GripenE are in a higher weight category compared to TejasMk1A and JF17Blk3.

 

[Bilal.]

TejasMk2 and GripenE are in a higher weight category compared to TejasMk1A and JF17Blk3.

Similar dimensions. Similar empty weight. Same category.

 

[KapitaanAli]

Similar dimensions. Similar empty weight. Same category.

Dimensions don't matter when you're comparing different families, as some are designed to be tiny but with same MTOW. Only compare Mk1A vs Mk2 dimensions, if you must. Similarly Blk2 vs Blk3 dimensions.

As for empty weight, I'm pretty sure it's MTOW that decides the engine category. Perhaps you're not considering airframe integrity. I get your point why you picked those two factors. I can't argue more as neither of us can definitively comment what the bottleneck of each fighter are. Engine or airframe.

But number of hardpoints can give us an idea:

Blk2: 7 HP
Mk1/Mk1A/Blk3: 7HP+1LDP
Mk2: 11 or 13 HP.

 

[khanasifm]

Just curious block 3 with side stick speculations ?? Or rumor besides single large display ??

 

[Bilal.]

Dimensions don't matter when you're comparing different families, as some are designed to be tiny but with same MTOW. Only compare Mk1A vs Mk2 dimensions, if you must. Similarly Blk2 vs Blk3 dimensions.

As for empty weight, I'm pretty sure it's MTOW that decides the engine category. Perhaps you're not considering airframe integrity. I get your point why you picked those two factors. I can't argue more as neither of us can definitively comment what the bottleneck of each fighter are. Engine or airframe.

But number of hardpoints can give us an idea:

Blk2: 7 HP
Mk1/Mk1A/Blk3: 7HP+1LDP
Mk2: 11 or 13 HP.

MTOW is also a function of engine power along with other things. Empty weight and dimension tells the story that they belong to same class. MTOW of block 3 has increased with increased payload. With a F414 class engine (WS19), it will increase further. Like I said, same class.

 

[DrWatson775]

Thanks. I don’t think engine purchases will trigger CAATSA sanctions. As I understand, it’s geared towards major defense purchases and not simply subsystems like engines, sensors etc.

Do you think the WS-15 & WS-19 will mature within the next 5-years for them to be contenders for the AZM project? @Deino

If they want to trigger CAATSA, the will do so especially if Pakistan is involved, or they will find another reason. Not entirely the same bit similar situation with ATAK engines.

 

[khanasifm]

MTOW is also a function of engine power along with other things. Empty weight and dimension tells the story that they belong to same class. MTOW of block 3 has increased with increased payload. With a F414 class engine (WS19), it will increase further. Like I said, same class.

Yes and no

So mirage 3/5 with engine max rating of just 9k lbs mil and ~14000 lbs in wet thrust can go Mach 2.2 at 40k attitude and almost same rather more max height of Jf17 55k and has max take off same as jf ~30k lbs

It’s not just pure engine power aerodynamic and structures etc also matters

Jf has better thrust to weight ratio of 1:1 vs mirage clean 1: .68

 

[Bilal.]

Yes and no

So mirage 3/5 with engine max rating of just 9k lbs mil and ~14000 lbs in wet thrust can go Mach 2.2 at 40k attitude and almost same rather more max height of Jf17 55k and has max take off same as jf ~30k lbs

It’s not just pure engine power aerodynamic and structures etc also matters

Jf has better thrust to weight ratio of 1:1 vs mirage clean 1: .68

You are right. Re-read what I wrote:

“MTOW is also a function of engine power along with other things.”

What I meant was. All things being equal (same aerodynamics) when you will up-thrust the same airframe, it will help increase the MTOW.

What you are saying is correct for different airframes. It’s touched upon in below video (@8:50m):

Mark 1 versis mark 2 dimensions .......... There is a lot more blue in mark 2

View attachment 745323

From what i now YOUR BLOCK 3 & 2 are the same aiframe 99%
Tejas Mark 2 is 20% larger .............Different plane bigger GE414 engine too

20% larger to what, JF17 or mk1/1A?

 

[Ghessan]

caatsa needs to be neutralized. trade cannot be allowed to be weapons. best to stop trading with the u.s. & europe, concentrate on increasing trade with China, fast east, Turkey, Russia, Central Asia, Middle East, Africa & South America. u.s. & e.u. & u.s. should be sent a clear message that trade with them will only happen on OUR terms. To do this, we need to weaponize our own economy on a war footing so that every one would want to trade with us.

one has to look at what a country's exports and what prospects it has in other markets.
Pakistan exports textiles, sports, surgical goods (we lost leather and hand made carpet market). textile has more than 60% share.

when we look at our textile exports, we were mainly raw material exporters in the form of yarn and grey fabric. which is gradually converting towards value added goods. pandemic besides electricity rates help us boost our value added goods in textile sector to a new level and today this industry is investing in machinery to expand their production output to meet the demand. only recently govt extended 70 billion loans only to import machinery with 50 billion for textile machinery.

the demand always come from Europe and US, China on the other hand itself is a big textile exporter and very competitive in the market. the end result is there will always be Europe and US that will be the textile importers, fashion industry and all the famous brands are sitting there.

if we can shift our range of goods from textile to other fields then ofcourse we can explore new markets which is a huge shift and industrialist in Pakistan is not innovative he don't take risks. diversification will only be in the form of CPEC which will force the local investor in diversifying fields, we have to wait till 2030.

it will always be these two destinations Europe and US which will be huge markets for anything.

 

[Dazzler]

Just curious block 3 with side stick speculations ?? Or rumor besides single large display ??

No sidestick. Single display is there in 3001.