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Japan watching China's military closely

If they get hold of China then a world war will become a lot more likely, I'd rather see China denying everyone's political rights than letting those nutters play racial cards to raise through the power ranks.

Im not too well versed with China-Japan war and general history, so for my benefit and understanding could you explain... What are the main points of differences from a political and also general people's perspective?

Thanks.
 
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I am not from China but I was in Shenzhen for nearly 10 years. Shenzhen is a melting pot of China, a sort of modern frontier city, where people of all races from all over China came here to look for better prospects.

I do not see any evidence of racial problems here, many Zhuang people 壮族 from Guangxi province worked in Shenzhen as are many other minority races。

I frequent a eating place run by a Uyghur family (excuse my spelling), 99% of customers are Han Chinese. Popular Lanzhou Noodle shop 兰州拉面 run by Muslims can be found in many corners of the city streets, also the customers are mainly Han Chinese.


Also I believe their existance is out-dated since such movements were first formed after collapse of Ming Dynasty in order to over throw the Qing government which was considered then as alien.

Many Triads (gansters) like Hong Meng 洪门 can be considered Chinese Nationalist since their original objective was to drive out the Manchu from China.

Incidentally it is rumoured that Dr Sun Yat Sun was a member of Hong Meng 洪门.

They were very active in South East Asia and British Hong Kong. After Hong Kong reverted back to China, many Triad members went north to China mainland, I suspect those triad members are partly responsible to revival of Han Nationalist.

Present Day PRC government is doing alot to promote unity among the 56 races in China, the Chinese currency ia the only one in the world that has minority language printed on.

It has standard Chinese characters, Romanised Chinese letters, Tibetans, Mongolians,and two others which I am not sure, I think is Manchurian and Uyghur.

Do not worried about them gaining ground in China, for what I see they are mislead group used by Triad gansters or foreigh entities trying to disrupt the social harmony.
 
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Don't worry too much about not knowing. The last time I visited China was 2008 and no one really raised the Nationalism issue. I gained most of the knowledge via surfing Chinese forums.

I agree that Han nationalist extremists are a bit on the scary side. They often comment on the "racial superiority and purity" of the Han (going as far as coming up with stories of how the Chinese averaged 6 foot prior to the Manchu invasion) and even talk about exterminating the non-Hans. We'd have another third reich on our hands if they get a say in the decision making (shudders).

What utter Bullshit. Han Chinese race is about as pure as a mutt. How many times have Northern China changed hands over the centuries and how many internal migrations have there been in China. Seriously if you start breeding for a "pure race" all you're going to get is a bunch inbred idiots.

Welcome to the forum by the way Siegecrossbow. It's alway nice to have another level head around here and a belated welcome to lcloo too :)

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Is it because Japan has 655,377 Han Chinese?



The Origins of the Japanese people


The origins of the Japanese people is not entirely clear yet. It is common for Japanese people to think that Japan is not part of Asia since it is an island, cut off from the continent. This tells a lot about how they see themselves in relation to their neighbours. But in spite of what the Japanese may think of themselves, they do not have extraterrestrial origins, and are indeed related to several peoples in Asia.

We shall have to go back a long way through history and analyse in depth the genetics, culture and language of the archipelago and try to find out whether the Japanese are indeed unique, and in what way.

During the last Ice Age, which ended approximately 15,000 years ago, Japan was connected to the continent through several land bridges, notably one linking the Ryukyu Islands to Taiwan and Kyushu, one linking Kyushu to the Korean peninsula, and another one connecting Hokkaido to Sakhalin and the Siberian mainland. In fact, the Philippines and Indonesia were also connected to the Asian mainland. This allowed migrations from China and Austronesia towards Japan, about 35,000 years ago. These were the ancestors of the modern Ryukyuans (Okinawans), and the first inhabitants of all Japan.

The Ainu came from Siberia and settled in Hokkaido and Honshu some 15,000 years ago, just before the water levels started rising again. Nowadays the Ryukuyans, the Ainus and the Japanese are considered three ethnically separate groups. We will see why.


Genetic evidence


It is now believed that the modern Japanese descend mostly from the interbreeding of the Jomon Era people (15,000-500 BCE), composed of the above Ice Age settlers, and a later arrival from China and/or Korea. Around 500 BCE, the Yayoi people crossed the see from Korea to Kyushu, bringing with them a brand new culture, based on wet rice cultivation and horses.


As we will see below, DNA tests have confirmed the likelihood of this hypothesis. About 54% of paternal lineages and 66% the maternal lineages have been identified as being of Sino-Korean origin.


DNA analysis of the Japanese people

Two kinds of DNA tests allow to trace back prehistoric ancestry. The first one is mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), DNA found outside the cells' nucleus and inherited through the mother's line. The other is the Y-chromosome (Y-DNA), inherited exclusively from father to son (women do not have it). They are both inherited in an unaltered fashion for many generations, which allow geneticists to identify very old lineages and ancient ethnicities. According to the current limited data, the genetic composition of Japan is as follow.

mtDNA haplogroups Frequency in Japan Y-DNA haplogroups Frequency in Japan
A 7.5% C1 4%
B4 8% C3 3%
B5 4% D1 0.1%
C 0.5% D2 36%
D4 30% N 3%
D5 5% O1 1%
F 5.5% O2a 0.1%
G 6% O2b 32%
HV 0.1% O3 21%
M7 18.5%
M8a 1.5%
M9 1.5%
M10 1.5%
M11 0.5%
N9 3.5%
Y 0.1%
Z 1.5%
Others 5%


Paternal lineages (Y-DNA)

54% of Japanese men belong to haplogroup O, and more precisely to the subgroups O3 and O2b. Both of them could be of Han Chinese or Korean origin. A negligible percentage of the Japanese are O1 or O2a, two lineages that trace their roots among southern Chinese or south-east Asian people.

Y-DNA haplogroup D2, making up 36% of the Japanese male lineages, is interesting because it is only found in Japan. Its closest relatives are scattered around very specific regions of Asia : the Andaman Islands (between India and Myanmar), Indonesia (only a small minority), Southwest China (mostly among the Qiang ethnic group), Mongolia (also a small minority) and Tibet. Haplogroup D is thought to have originated in East Africa some 50,000 years before present. The first carriers of the gene would have migrated along the coasts of the Indian Ocean, through Indonesia, and gone up to Japan, South-East Siberia, then moved inland to Mongolia, with the last part of the group continuing as far as Tibet. However, whereas the Japanese belong to haplogroup D2, Tibetans are part of the completely separate D3a, the Qiang of D1, and the Andaman Islanders of D*. It means that their most recent common ancestors goes back tens of thousands of years. In other words the genetic gap between these ethnic groups is immense, despite false appearances of belonging to a common haplogroup.

Along with D2, C1 is the other haplogroup unique to Japan. Both are likely to have been in the Japanese archipelago since the first human beings reached the region 35,000 years ago. They would have come from Austronesia, probably using the land bridge from Taiwan through the present-day Ryukyu islands. The presence of haplogroup D in a minority of Indonesian people confirms the link between the two countries.

The 3% of haplogroups N may be of Siberian or Chinese origin. Haplogroup C3, representing also 3% of the population, is typical of the Mongols and Siberians. It might have come with the Ainu through Sakhalin island and Hokkaido, or along with the Yayoi farmers from Korea. C3 is indeed found at both extremities of the country but is rare in central Japan, suggesting two separate entries.

As for the Ainu, it is known from the last surviving tribes of "pure" Ainu (living on the island of Sakhalin in Russia, just north of Hokkaido) that almost all of them belong to haplogroup D2, with a small minority of C3. It would mean that the aboriginal people of Japan, the Ryukyuans and the Ainus, commonly known as the Jomon people, are ultimately related as members of haplogroup D2.

In conclusion, approximately 43% modern Japanese men carry a Y-chromosome of Jomon origin. The highest proportions of Y-DNA haplogroup C and D is found in northern Japan (over 60%) and the lowest in Western Japan (25%). This is concordant with the history of Japan; the Yayoi people of Sino-Korean origins having settled first and most heavily in Kyushu and Chūgoku, in Western Japan.


Maternal lineages (mtDNA)

The matrilineal side (mtDNA) is more varied. There 15 main lineages and many more subclades or minor haplogroups. Those of typical Sino-Korean origin are haplogroups A (mostly A4 and A5), B (mostly B4 and B5), C, D (mostly D4 and D5), F, M8a, M9, M10, M11 and Z. Together they are present in 67% of the Japanese population.
M7, although present in most of East Asia, is usually present as M7a in Japan, and has been associated with the Jomon and Ainu people. Haplogroup N9b is unique to Japan and is the maternal equivalent of C1 and D2 on the paternal side. N9a is found in Southeast Asia, parts of China, and throughout Japan, but is absent from Korea or Eastern China, and is consequently also surely of Jomon origin.

Haplogroups G and Y are normally found in Western and Eastern ends of Siberia. These lineages are more common among the Ainu, both inside and outside Japan. The Ainu would have acquired these haplogroups through population exchange (intermarriages, probably) with their Siberian neighbours. This could also explain how Y-DNA haplogroup C3 and N permeated the Jomon stock.

It should also be noted that a few samples of haplogroup D1 were found in skeletons from the Jomon period (although N9b was the dominant lineage). This is interesting because D1 is normally not found among East Asians but among Native Americans. How did this lineage end up in Japan is still unknown. It should be said, however, that D1 is now extremely rare in the modern Japanese population, if it still exist at all. The most likely explanation is that D1 first appeared in Siberia then migrated to the Americas, and that a few women carrying this lineage married into other Siberian tribes that eventually came into contact with the Ainu then Jomon people, after many generations of geographic drift. 0.1% of haplogroup HV have also been identified among the modern Japanese. HV is a very old lineage (40,000 years old) typical of Europe, with frequencies fading through the Middle East, Central Asia and Siberia. Its negligible presence in East Asia is surely the result of a very long series of women being married to neighbouring communities. The main point of entry to East Asia would have been Xinjiang, where about half of the DNA is of European origin.


Autosomal DNA analysis
Genome-wide SNP genotypes of the Japanese show that people from northern Japan (Tohoku and Hokkaido) are the most distantly related to the Han Chinese, while those from Western Japan (Kyushu, Chūgoku, Kinki) are the closest. This confirms the theory of the continental Yayoi invasion from Kyushu.
Okinawan people were shown to be a clearly distinct ethnic group, falling in a separate genetic cluster from other Japanese.

The Austronesian connection
The Paleolithic Jomon people appear to have come from Austronesia during the Ice Age, before Japan was resettled by Bronze-age rice farmers from the continent. The Chinese had previously expanded southward to South-East Asia. The original inhabitants of Indonesia and the Philippines might have been related to Dravidians of Southern India. Y-haplogroup C, which has been associated with the first migration of modern humans out of Africa towards Asia, is relatively frequent in Kerala (southern tip of India) and Borneo. These early Austronesians are thought to have been the ancestors of the Ice Age settlers of Japan.

From a linguistic point of view, Bahasa Indonesia/Malaysia and Japanese language share only a few similarities, but nonetheless striking ones. Apart from the very similar pronunciation in both languages, there is the same hierarchical differences in personal pronouns. For example "you" is either anda or kamu with the same meaning and usage as anata and kimi in Japanese. Likewise, the Japanese verb suki ("to like") translates suka in Bahasa. Such similarities are probably more than mere coincidences, and may reveal a common origin. Furthermore, in both languages the plural can be formed by simply doubling the word. For instance, in Japanese hito means "person", while hitobito means "people". Likewise ware means "I" or "you", whereas wareware means "we". Doubling of words in Japanese is so common that there is a special character used only to mean the word is doubled (々) in written Japanese. In Bahasa, this way of forming the plural is almost systematical (person is orang, while people is orang-orang). Expressions like ittekimasu, itteirashai, tadaima and okaeri, used to greet someone who leaves or enter a place, and which have no equivalent in Indo-European languages, have exact equivalents in Indonesian (selamat jalan, selamat tinggal...).

Another evidence of the migration of haplogroup D from the Indian Ocean to Japan is that Tamil language (from Tamil Nadu in South India) also bears some uncanny similarities with Japanese language. Naturally, these languages having evolved separately for maybe 40,000 years, only a tiny fraction of the common roots have subsisted, but enough to confirm that such a common origin might indeed have existed, in a very distant past.

Japanese matsuri (festivals) resemble so much Balinese ones that one could wonder if one was not copied from the other. During cremations in Bali, the dead body is carried on a portable shrine, very much in the way that the Japanese carry their mikoshi. Balinese funerals are joyful and people swinging the portable shrine in the streets and making loud noise to scare the evil spirits. Basically, Balinese religion is a form of Hinduism that has incorporated the aborigenal animist religion. Japanese Shintoism is also a variety of animism, and is practised side-by-side with Buddhism, a religion derived from Hinduism (Buddha himslef was born a Hindu). There are lots of other cultural similarities between ancient cultures of Indonesia and Japan. For example, both Balinese temples and Japanese shrines, as well as traditional Japanese and Balinese houses have a wall surrounding them, originally meant tp prevent evil spririts from penetrating the property. Despite the radical changes that Indonesian culture underwent after the introduction of Islam and Christianity, and the changes that Buddhism brought to Japan, it is still possible to observe clear similarities between the supposed original prehistoric cultures of the two archipelagoes.


The Korean connection

Japanese and Korean languages are both classified by linguists as Altaic languages, along with Mongolic, Tungusic and Turkic, among others. Nevertheless, Japanese is so distant from Mongolic and Turkic than the similarities are hardly more evident than those with Indonesian or even Tamil.

Korean language, however, is much closer to Japanese. The grammar is very similar, and both have imported about half of their vocabulary from Chinese, which makes these three languages almost mutually understable in the written form, thanks to Chinese characters (rarely used in Korea nowadays, except in place names). Native Korean and Japanese words are often related when comparing Old Korean and Old Japanese, but few of them are really obvious to modern speakers.

Mindset and values in Japan and South Korea are deeply intertwined, thanks to the strong influence of Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism in both countries. This is obvious from the corporate culture (e.g. discipline, seniority system), the strict politeness system, or the Taoist/Buddhist value of simplicity and humility. These cultural aspects all ultimately stem from China. That's why Japan and Korea are considered branches of the Chinese civilisation.

The Japanese colonisation of Korea (1895-1945) has left of a lot of resentment on the Korean side and a sense of superiority mixed with repressed shame and denial on the Japanese side. This is why both Koreans and Japanese are often reluctant to admit their similitudes. However, thanks to natural affinities in sensitivities and tastes, South Korea and Japan appear to be culturally closer as ever nowadays.

The Origins of the Japanese people- Wa-pedia



Japanese is a mixed race of very diverse Asian tribes, within which about 25% are connected to Han Chinese, 24% are connected to Koreans, with the rest minor percentages connecting to many modern day Pacific Islanders, according to all major studies on Japanese mitochondrial DNA. ( That's why the apprearances of many Japanese to me , a Han Chinese, are definitely Han Chinese racially, while other shorter and darker Japanese are almost definitely NOT Han Chinese but some mixed Southeast Asian stocks).

Generally speaking, Japanese to Han Chinese is almost as modern Englanders to their continential cousins: the Germans, except the fact that Han Chinese migrations to the islands of Japan were through many waves across different eras of history, while historic Anglo-Saxen migrations to the British isles were thru one large wave of a single era, mostly.
 
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Im not too well versed with China-Japan war and general history, so for my benefit and understanding could you explain... What are the main points of differences from a political and also general people's perspective?

Thanks.

I think we all are getting a bit carried away by the Han-zi (Han Nazi lol) arguments. Since the topic is "Japan watching China's military closely" I think we'd better discuss just that before the mods close us down:azn::azn:.

There are more knowledgeable people than I who could give you a better picture of Sino-Japanese relations, but I'll try to give you my two cents.

According to a Chinese legend a mystic named Xu Fu took a few hundred male and female children on a quest for the immortality drug when they stumbled upon the island of Japan (you can check a previous post for more info on that legend). Although this is simply a legend there is some credence to this tale since the Japanese civilization entered a period of rapid advancements in metallurgy and agriculture during era corresponding to the Qin Dynasty, or when this story supposedly took place. Historians believe that Chinese influence first entered Japan during this era when Chinese fishermen from the "Wu" (coincidentally where I am roughly from) traveled to Japan. Due to the oceanic barrier the Japanese enjoyed relative independence from direct Chinese influence but there were numerous contacts during the Han Dynasty that followed. The Japanese monarch (one of them, at least) was crowned "King of the nation Wo" by a Han Emperor.

Japan's first conflict with China, surprisingly, occured in the 7th century. Tang China was at war with Silla, one of the three kingdoms that made up Modern Korea and the Japanese supported the Silla. They engaged the Tang navy at the battle of Bai Jiang Ko but were anhilated despite their superior numbers due to the overwhelming Tang technological superiority/fire attack tactic the Chinese employed. As a result of the defeat the Japanese looked to the Chinese as a model and borrowed extensively from Tang culture/customs. The famous katana, for example, used the same folded steel technic used to forge Tang swords (which was regretably lost in China).

Japan continued to look up to China until the Mongols conquered the Southern Song Dynasty in the late 13th century. The two failed Mongol attempt to conquer Japan only reinforced their feeling of superiority. By the time that Zhu Yuan Zhang, the founder of the Ming Dynasty reclaimed China from the Mongols in 1368, the Japanese were arrogant enough to disgrace the Ming convoy to Japan. Japanese pirates, or Wokou, also started attack the rich Chinese East Coast during this period. The Ming Dynasty, however, was a force to be reckoned with and successfully repelled the wokou invasions until the Dynasty became stagnant during the 16th century. The Wokou (Japanese pirates), now armed with Portugese arquebues and katanas superior to Chinese swords and spears in sharpness, wreaked havocs on the East Coast until Generals Qi Jiguang and Yu Dayou extensively reformed the military (small part any ways). Matchlock firearms, breech loading cannons, and the special "Mandarin Duck" formation were adapted by general Qi Jiguang to combat the pirates, with great success.

By the late 16th century Hideyoshi successfully unified Japan and wished to expand his Empire by launching a full scaled attack against Korea. The Imjin or Seven Years War began as a result. The fierce Japanese warriors, now heavily armed with matchlock arquebuses, pushed back the Koreans (who didn't have war for almost a century) with relative ease until Wan Li Emperor decided to intervene. While the Chinese lagged behind in the light firearms area (only Southern Chinese troops used matchlock weapons since the Northerners found them to be unreliable in the windy conditions of the Northern frontiers) they had plenty of breech loading cannons and most importantly, far superior cavalry under the leadership of renowned general Li Rusong (the same cavalry that regularly butted heads with the Mongols). The Chinese and Koreans were able to push back the Japanese and the two sides even had a temporary truce before the war dragged on. The Japanese finally evacuated from Korea after the death of Hideoyoshi and the Tokugawa regime that followed displayed good will towards Ming China.

About two hundred years of peace lasted between China and Japan until the Japanese, who modernized successfully in the late 19th century, wanted to expand once again via another invasion of Korea. The Qing Dynasty was badly defeated when the Beiyang Navy, one of the largest and most Modern in the world, was obliterated by the Japanese Navy. While Japan continued to modernize China remained relatively backward, even after the revolution of 1911 when the Nationalists took over. Japan, along with other Western powers in the aftermath of the Boxer's Rebellion, was able to occupy Chinese territory and even got to take over the German territories in China after beating them in WWI.

The Great Depression hurt Japan as much as it did other Western nations and as a result the already powerful Nationalist sentiments expanded exponentially. The stage was set for the Second Sino-Japanese War, in which the Japanese committed unspeakable crimes against the Chinese people (Rape of Nanking, for example). The Nationalists and Communists formed a temporary truce and eventually the war came to a stalemate until the dropping of Atom Bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki ended the war for good. Keep in mind that this is THE CONFLICT responsible for most of Sino-Japanese tension today. Right wingers in Japan refuse to acknowledge the damages that they've done to China and continues to visit the Yasukuni Shrine, a place where Japanese war criminals are housed. This, combined with the China's rapid rise, is responsible for much alienation of Chinese in Japan and Japanese in China.

Whew that was a bit long. Hopefully it answered your questions though.
 
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Im not too well versed with China-Japan war and general history, so for my benefit and understanding could you explain... What are the main points of differences from a political and also general people's perspective?

Thanks.

Hi sensenreason, I'm actually not familiar with the Japanese culture at all, so can't really give you a good answer to those questions, other guys here have done a better job that I ever could.
 
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china possibly have early contact and influence to Japan but probably not as extensive as the Xu Fu story suggests, because Japanese language is distinct from chinese besides chinese character writing. (Then again no one knew how the Qin people spoke but it is probably more similar to modern mandarin.)

Interestingly Karate used to mean 'way of the Tang fist', implying some influence from Tang Dynasty. It was later changed to 'way of the empty fist' because empty and tang both use the character 'ka' in japanese.
 
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china possibly have early contact and influence to Japan but probably not as extensive as the Xu Fu story suggests, because Japanese language is distinct from chinese besides chinese character writing. (Then again no one knew how the Qin people spoke but it is probably more similar to modern mandarin.)

Interestingly Karate used to mean 'way of the Tang fist', implying some influence from Tang Dynasty. It was later changed to 'way of the empty fist' because empty and tang both use the character 'ka' in japanese.

Didn't Karate originate in Okinawa? The islands weren't really Japanese until fairly modern times.
 
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"Karate began as a common fighting system known as te (Okinawan: ti) among the Pechin class of the Ryukyuans. After trade relationships were established with the Ming dynasty of China by King Satto of Chūzan in 1372, some forms of Chinese martial arts were introduced to the Ryukyu Islands by the visitors from China, particularly Fujian Province. A large group of Chinese families moved to Okinawa around 1392 for the purpose of cultural exchange, where they established the community of Kumemura and shared their knowledge of a wide variety of Chinese arts and sciences, including the Chinese martial arts. The political centralization of Okinawa by King Shō Hashi in 1429 and the 'Policy of Banning Weapons,' enforced in Okinawa after the invasion of the Shimazu clan in 1609, are also factors that furthered the development of unarmed combat techniques in Okinawa.[2]

There were few formal styles of te, but rather many practitioners with their own methods. One surviving example is the Motobu-ryū school passed down from the Motobu family by Seikichi Uehara.[13] Early styles of karate are often generalized as Shuri-te, Naha-te, and Tomari-te, named after the three cities from which they emerged.[14] Each area and its teachers had particular kata, techniques, and principles that distinguished their local version of te from the others.

Members of the Okinawan upper classes were sent to China regularly to study various political and practical disciplines. The incorporation of empty-handed Chinese Kung Fu into Okinawan martial arts occurred partly because of these exchanges and partly because of growing legal restrictions on the use of weaponry. Traditional karate kata bear a strong resemblance to the forms found in Fujian martial arts such as Fujian White Crane, Five Ancestors, and Gangrou-quan (Hard Soft Fist; pronounced "Gōjūken" in Japanese).[15] Further influence came from Southeast Asia— particularly Sumatra, Java, and Melaka[citation needed]. Many Okinawan weapons such as the sai, tonfa, and nunchaku may have originated in and around Southeast Asia.

Sakukawa Kanga (1782–1838) had studied pugilism and staff (bo) fighting in China (according to one legend, under the guidance of Kosokun, originator of kusanku kata). In 1806 he started teaching a fighting art in the city of Shuri that he called "Tudi Sakukawa," which meant "Sakukawa of China Hand." This was the first known recorded reference to the art of "Tudi," written as 唐手. Around the 1820s Sakukawa's most significant student Matsumura Sōkon (1809–1899) taught a synthesis of te (Shuri-te and Tomari-te) and Shaolin (Chinese 少林) styles. Matsumura's style would later become the Shōrin-ryū style."


Okinawa had more contact with china than japan until fairly recent in history
 
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SiegeC & No-name,

see my above post on The Origins of the Japanese people ( 3rd paragraph), I would say perhaps Okinawanians are the ture Japanese, while modern time"Japanese" invaders of Okinawa were indeed interbred descendants of Han Chinese, Koreans and Ainus.
 
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