Japan seeks defence ties with Asean

[Viva_Viet]

I like the way some Vietnamese thinking.......

"If we secure SCS, our Guam WILL fall because of no fuel and food."

Well.......

It would be the case if our ship only know and operate in One direction.

First of all, set aside all the middle eastern oil and Alaskan/Texas Oil, in this post, this agrument, we assume, yeah we need the Middle Eastern Oil and Middle eastern oil is our lifeline.

In case you lot don't know, even if Vietnam can blockade the whole SCS, there are other searoute you know?? we could just use Atlantic-Transpacific line (Via panama canal) bring the oil past Suez Canal from Middle East and enter the Alantic Ocean via either South America (cape horn) or via Panama Canal or simply by pass the Malacca Strait and enter Australia and South pacific route via Indian Ocean, we still hold Diego Garcia in Indian Ocean. Or we can use the Northern searoute.

Northern Sea Route in Blue

Do remember, the world is round, it's a sphere, you don't need to go East to head East, when you head west and go thru the international date line, you will be heading East instead of West.

If you know the sea is blockaded and our ship, the Proud US Navy, still continue the journey ahead unchanged, then i guess we deserved to lose Guam to the Vietnamese.....LOL

It seems like No American here know where Guam import oil from . Oki, let me show u guys this link.

Petroleum companies on Guam import their supply from Singapore, where prices of refined fuel remain volatile in reaction to global pressures of demand, currency rates and the recent European economic crisis, says Bamba. "Global recession will definitely have impact on local pricing, to what extent is determined by its impact on supply, refining, and all other components along the process," Bamba says. "We are the last leg of the delivery cycle, which usually means impacts are compounded."

Ortega says the prices of crude oil and other oil products can fluctuate dramatically weekly or even daily. "Our region relies on imports of fuel obtained from the global regional market and the delivery of those products to our region follows a long, complex and costly supply chain," he says.

Although Guam has one the highest gasoline prices in the United States, industry leaders say prices at the pump are actually kept in check and stay within relatively manageable levels. They say prices would have been a lot higher if companies were shipping fuel products from the U.S. mainland. "We have to import from Asia to be able price gas efficiently," Dean says

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...e-post-war-constitution-19.html#ixzz2OKsmxEvD

Guam import oil from Singapore for the cheapest price. If Guam import it from somewhere else, or use other route to transport oil from Sing to Guam instead of passing through VN EEZ in SCS(east sea), then Guam will go broke coz the price is Too high.

Detroit went backrupt already bcz of US national debt is too high now, so, without importing from Sing passing through VN's EEZ in SCS(east sea), Guam will be the next one going bankrupt.

LOL you are half Vietnamese, aren´t you? You don´t want to blame yourself, either, I assume.

Actually it is only Mr NiceGuy who wants to conquer the world, I don´t mind, but to take his opinion as what all Vietnamese think is really silly. Thanks anyway to your explainnation how Guam can be never taken by Vietnam.

VN don't need Guam, but Russia need it, you know why Russia wrote off our debt from Soviet era and allow us to buy all kinds of their best weapon On Credit ?? simple answer: bcz Russia need VN to help them to take something from America, bro.

Russian bombers over Guam raise questions about America’s credibility
Monday, February 18, 2013

Read more: Russian bombers over Guam raise questions about America
Follow us: @wtcommunities on Twitter

 

[Viva_Viet]

Eh, the death/wounded ratio in Sino-Vietnam war has some room for speculation, since the Vietnam government refused to release numbers. My data is taken from recent estimations using the units in combat at the time.
Remember, the Sino-Vietnam war isn't just the 1979 conflict. It is a prolonged conflict which lasted until 89. During this ten years, China is essentially using one or two army groups at a time and Vietnam is mobilizing the entire country. .

Wrong, our main forces were in Cambodia to fought against Pol Pot and Royal Thai army, we mainly use militia forces to fought against PLA in North border.

VN Women militia in border war against China.

VN Women militia in Mong Cai-Quang Ninh against PLA.

No comment

As a result, Vietnam lost the golden window for economic prosperity.

We're small country, Russia-Japan can pour money in to help us to get rich soon.

 

[Viva_Viet]

Of course that's true. Vietnam isn't a big piece on the chess board. But it's like a horse in the center now, which means it's small but it has a strategic value now. It's very assertive about the South Chine Sea issue. South China Sea has two strategic importance. First it's location is like a gate and whoever holds the key for that gate has a great advantage for influencing ASEAN. Second and the basic one is it has large amounts of oil. The existance of oil lets Vietnam to bring any major player to the territory. Russia has no stakes there, also India has none. But they all watch the issues very closely because of oil. Russia seeks a balance between China and Vietnam, whereas India seems to be closer to the Vietnamese position.

Believe me if China can't solve the issue one way or another you will have a problem with that territory sooner or later.

Seem like u're underestimate Russia's ambitious. The Truth is: Russia wanna revive Great Soviet Union , that's why she want to help VN to build a strong naval fleet and wanna join with VN to control China-Guam oil route passing through Malacaa and SCS(east sea), and its will pose great threat to Guam and the entire American territory in Asia.

If Russia can kick US out of ASEAN, then its a great chance for Russia to sell more weapons to Singapore-Malaysia-Thailand- which are US's allies and buying US's weapon now.

 

[jhungary]

It seems like No American here know where Guam import oil from . Oki, let me show u guys this link.

Guam import oil from Singapore for the cheapest price. If Guam import it from somewhere else, or use other route to transport oil from Sing to Guam instead of passing through VN EEZ in SCS(east sea), then Guam will go broke coz the price is Too high.

Detroit went backrupt already bcz of US national debt is too high now, so, without importing from Sing passing through VN's EEZ in SCS(east sea), Guam will be the next one going bankrupt.



VN don't need Guam, but Russia need it, you know why Russia wrote off our debt from Soviet era and allow us to buy all kinds of their best weapon On Credit ?? simple answer: bcz Russia need VN to help them to take something from America, bro.

Dude, first of all. What you are saying is how Guam got the fuel in their Fuel station,like carltex, shell, BP and any commercial gas station. This is not how US Forces in guam get their fuel from. You cannot drive a Marine M-1 Abrams and try to refuel it on your local shell and you cannot land a F-15 in commercial airfield and ask for refuel in your local airfield.

All military Logistic is done by one of the 3, Military Sealift Command, Army Material Command and Marine Corps Logistics Command. And they are all suppliment to each other. You don't have just one way to supply the logistic.

Second thing is, do you even know the gast price in US? I wonder how even one person can go bankrupt when gas price is double or even tripled.

Your "Source" compare the price efficiency in Guam. L:et me tell you this from my personal experience. I was in Australia 10 years ago, gas price is 75-85 Cent per litter. I am once again in Australia now, after 10 years, the Gas Price today outside is 140 Cents per litter. I did not see one single person gone bankrupt because of that. 140 cents is already generous, it was about 160 cents p/L just 2 month ago, exactly 2 fold of the old price.

Gas price is high not because of where you get your fuel from, gas price is high becasue of the OPEC nation decision. However, you cannot get "bankrupt" like you said happened in Detriot just becasue of gas and food price.

3.) How are you suggest you blockade the Whole SCS??

Do you know under UNCLOS, EEZ only allow home country "Boarding" rights to suspicious vessel exclusive right to all economic activities, it does not allow blockade of International free shipping. You do know According to Article 58 UNCLOS, other states have right of freedom passage, cable laying and other legal operation of ship as if they are in International Water

Quote the UN document fond on UN home page

PREAMBLE TO THE UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA

Article58

Rights and duties of other States in the exclusive economic zone

1. In the exclusive economic zone, all States, whether coastal or land-locked, enjoy, subject to the relevant provisions of this Convention, the freedoms referred to in article 87 of navigation and overflight and of the laying of submarine cables and pipelines, and other internationally lawful uses of the sea related to these freedoms, such as those associated with the operation of ships, aircraft and submarine cables and pipelines, and compatible with the other provisions of this Convention.

2. Articles 88 to 115 and other pertinent rules of international law apply to the exclusive economic zone in so far as they are not incompatible with this Part.

3. In exercising their rights and performing their duties under this Convention in the exclusive economic zone, States shall have due regard to the rights and duties of the coastal State and shall comply with the laws and regulations adopted by the coastal State in accordance with the provisions of this Convention and other rules of international law in so far as they are not incompatible with this Part.

Red part mean everyone have fair freedom of access in any EEZ and the blue part say other state shall pay due regard to local law as long as they don't interfer with the red part.

Blockading and fire on other National Shipping consider an act of war to that nation, the moment you lay mine, any mine in your EEZ, you violate part 1 atricle 58 of UNCLOS. You can mine your own teritorial water for all you care, EEZ still counted as International Water, International law applies.

So i think you and Mr Nice guy is funny, on one hand you ask China to respect the UNCLOS, but on the other, you keep saying mining the SCS and Vietnam EEZ which itself violate the UNCLOS. So you want to follow it or you don't want people to follow it? Take your pick dude

 

[Viet]

@tranquilium

I got a question to you and Chinese in general.

You have figured out correctly, Vietnam is small and weak in all terms if compared to China. So why does China continue to keep the policy of holding down Vietnam? Why Vietnam? Why not other nations in East and South East Asia, not to mention South Asia.

If history is a guide, I want to understand why China attacked and invaded Vietnam more than a dozen times (17 times to be precise). But the interesting thing is China seemed to be not interested in other immediate neighbors such as Korea, Laos, Thailand, Burma, Philippines, etc...The latter were and are much weaker than Vietnam. China could have taken them easily.

So virtually China has kept a closer eye on Vietnam, going back since the founding of Vietnam or Nam Viet in 200 bc. So why China has chosen Vietnam and not others? In short, China is keen to keep Vietnam weak and poor.

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[xuxu1457]

@tranquilium

I got a question to you and Chinese in general.

You have figured out correctly, Vietnam is small and weak in all terms if compared to China. So why does China continue to keep the policy of holding down Vietnam? Why Vietnam? Why not other nations in East and South East Asia, not to mention South Asia.

If history is a guide, I want to understand why China attacked and invaded Vietnam more than a dozen times (17 times to be precise). But the interesting thing is China seemed to be not interested in other immediate neighbors such as Korea, Laos, Thailand, Burma, Philippines, etc...The latter were and are much weaker than Vietnam. China could have taken them easily.

So virtually China has kept a closer eye on Vietnam, going back since the founding of Vietnam or Nam Viet in 200 bc. So why China has chosen Vietnam and not others? In short, China is keen to keep Vietnam weak and poor.

Correct me if I am wrong.

17 times？？ can you post the 17 times, and who is the generals and what's is the scale? How many soldiers take part in? May be one general hunt at VN

 

[Viet]

That's one reason. True. And there is more,

Vietnamese economic reform Doi Moi (1986) came a decade after the Chinese "Reforms and Opening up" (1978) which made them lose a lot of time to create a "Socialist oriented market economy". Also Vietnamese economic reforms were much more protective than China. By 2005 70% of the Chinese GDP was being produced by the private sector which was very similar to western economies whereas Vietnam was never able to obtain such a strong private sector because despite the economic reforms, CPV was still heavily regulating the economy.

And a little remark for the 2nd indochina war,

Of course there were reasons for the defeat of the US. One of the main reasons for the social unrest was the "Draft Lottery" policy. But that's the part of the game isn't it? I mean if you can't explain your cause to the public, and force them to join a war which doesn't even interest them at all than you will have your social unrest no matter what your regime is You got to be smart enough to convince your people and mobilize your army efficiently otherwise no matter how strong you are you simply lose

However that doesn't change the fact that they have fought a war with an enemy which was technologically much more advanced. That makes you a brave person if you stand against a stronger guy doesn't it?

Actually thanks to China and US policy after the US defeat in 1975, Vietnam lost nearly another 15 years of economic development. Its economy first recovered in 1990. True is, Vietnam leaders followed more or less China model of economic reform.

Without the three devastating Indochina wars (France, America and China), perhaps Vietnam today would be rich and properous like other in the region (Singapore and Taiwan).

 

[faithfulguy]

Us didn't fight alone in VN war, they dragged their allies in,too.

They lost the war coz we're stronger, now, the fate of their Guam is in our hands.If we cut off its oil supply from Singapore to Guam, then Guam will fall.

Just curious, what does Vietnam have that can handle the 7th fleet?

 

[Viet]

17 times？？ can you post the 17 times, and who is the generals and what's is the scale? How many soldiers take part in? May be one general hunt at VN

LOL you don´t have the info? I think Chinese history textbooks only tell you that China is a peace loving country.
Answer me the question I raised in post #125...in the meantime I can look for the list.

 

[xuxu1457]

LOL you don´t have the info? I think Chinese history textbooks only tell you that China is a peace loving country.
Answer me the question I raised in post #125...in the meantime I can look for the list.

may be a big thing for VN, but even can't worth a note for China, China's history even not mention about VN

 

[EastSea]

Vietnam, Japan strengthen ties

Vietnam attaches importance to the strengthening of ties with Japan, in the interest of the people from both countries, and for peace, stability and development in the region and the world, said To Huy Rua, Politburo member and Party Central Committee Secretary.

Meeting Takebe Tsutomu, former President of the Japan-Vietnam Friendship Parliamentary Alliance in Hanoi on March 11, Rua, who is also President of the Vietnam-Japan Friendship Parliamentarians Group, expressed his pleasure with the growing ties between the countries.

The countries’ joint activities to celebrate 40 years of their diplomatic ties in 2013 will boost friendship and mutual understanding between Vietnamese and Japanese people, especially the youngsters. It will consolidate the firm foundation the stable and long-lasting friendship and cooperation between both countries is built on, he said.

Rua highly values Takebe’s contributions to the political and economic cooperation between Vietnam and Japan. He said he hopes Takebe will continue his efforts to foster ties between the two countries in all fields.

Takebe spoke highly of the development of the all-around cooperation between Vietnam and Japan, and affirmed that Japan pays much attention to the strengthening of the strategic partnership that the two countries enjoy.

He asserted that as a former President of the Japan-Vietnam Friendship Parliamentary Alliance and current Honorary President of the Japan-Vietnam Business Forum, he will continue making contributions to the comprehensive cooperation and strategic partnership between the two countries, especially in the implementation of large-scale joint projects in Vietnam.

Source: VNA QĐND - Tuesday, March 12, 2013, 20:45 (GMT+7)

Vietnam, Japan hold first strategic defence dialogue


Deputy Defence Minister, Senior Lieutenant General Nguyen Chi Vinh and his Japanese counterpart Hironori Kanazawa co-chaired the first Vietnam-Japan strategic defence dialogue in Hanoi on November 26.

The two sides agreed that Vietnam-Japan relations have deepened in all fields, of which defence cooperation continues to see positive development, meeting strategic partnership agreements between the two countries’ leaders.

The sides have built mutual trust and understanding with all-level delegation exchanges, driving effective and practical defence cooperation.

To meet future objectives, the two sides agreed upon measures to strengthen defence cooperation in the fields of delegation exchange, training, peacekeeping experience sharing, mine clearance, naval medical care and non-traditional security management.

In frank debate, they reached a common perception in participating, consulting and supporting each other at multilateral forums, including the ASEAN Defence Ministers Meeting Plus (ADMM+), ASEAN Regional Forum (ARF), and solution of sea and island disputes by peaceful means in accordance with international law.

They agreed to build a roadmap and dialogue mechanism to implement the initiatives and bilateral defence cooperation reached between the two Defence Ministers in October 2011, contributing to a deepening strategic partnership between the two countries.

The same day, Kanazawa paid a courtesy visit to Defence Minister Phung Quang Thanh.-VNA

 

[Viet]

may be a big thing for VN, but even can't worth a note for China, China's history even not mention about VN

Really? I wish that was true. Unfortunately your arrogance is famous throughout history.

How Vietnam Sees China | ASEAN Beat

This was made very clear in a remarkable message sent by the Song Emperor Taizong to King Le Hoan in AD 979, just over a decade after Vietnam first reasserted its independence.

Like a stern headmaster, Taizong appealed to Le Hoan to see reason and return to the Chinese fold:

"Although your seas have pearls, we will throw them into the rivers, and though your mountains produce gold, we will throw it into the dust. We do not covet your valuables. You fly and leap like savages, we have horse-drawn carriages.

You drink through your noses, we have rice and wine. Let us change your customs. You cut your hair, we wear hats; when you talk, you sound like birds. We have examinations and books. Let us teach you the knowledge of the proper laws ... Do you not want to escape from the savagery of the outer islands and gaze upon the house of civilization?

Do you want to discard your garments of leaves and grass and wear flowered robes embroidered with mountains and dragons?

Have you understood?"

In fact Le Hoan understood Taizong very well and, like his modern successors, knew exactly what he wanted from China - access to its culture and civilization without coming under its political control or jeopardizing Vietnamese freedom in any way.

This attitude infuriated Taizong, as it would generations of Chinese to come.

 

[Sanchez]

No, it was true story, guards of Englisman reported in media in UK, investigation in China is misinformed to Chinese people. In fact there was no money probleme for the lady like the wife of Bo Xilai, important person in China.



very hard, but we have to fighting with all kind of aggressors who invaded in to our soil.

You are so naive how I should hurt you more?

Learn from Chinese experience: work, produce, develop, and live a better life before you talk big...

 

[Viet]

17 times？？ can you post the 17 times, and who is the generals and what's is the scale? How many soldiers take part in? May be one general hunt at VN

below is the list, maybe not complete. you make look for other sources for further details.

WHKMLA : List of the Wars of Vietnam, Tonkin, Annam

 

[Viva_Viet]

Dude, first of all. What you are saying is how Guam got the fuel in their Fuel station,like carltex, shell, BP and any commercial gas station. This is not how US Forces in guam get their fuel from. You cannot drive a Marine M-1 Abrams and try to refuel it on your local shell and you cannot land a F-15 in commercial airfield and ask for refuel in your local airfield.

All military Logistic is done by one of the 3, Military Sealift Command, Army Material Command and Marine Corps Logistics Command. And they are all suppliment to each other. You don't have just one way to supply the logistic.

Second thing is, do you even know the gast price in US? I wonder how even one person can go bankrupt when gas price is double or even tripled.

Your "Source" compare the price efficiency in Guam. L:et me tell you this from my personal experience. I was in Australia 10 years ago, gas price is 75-85 Cent per litter. I am once again in Australia now, after 10 years, the Gas Price today outside is 140 Cents per litter. I did not see one single person gone bankrupt because of that. 140 cents is already generous, it was about 160 cents p/L just 2 month ago, exactly 2 fold of the old price.

Gas price is high not because of where you get your fuel from, gas price is high becasue of the OPEC nation decision. However, you cannot get "bankrupt" like you said happened in Detriot just becasue of gas and food price.

At least blocking oil route from SIng to Guam will make Guam people's life harder, they have to pay more money for their living. Guam people will get angry with your Govt. and wanna declare independence

US also will lose its weapon market in ASEAN,too.

3.) How are you suggest you blockade the Whole SCS??

Just curious, what does Vietnam have that can handle the 7th fleet?

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...seeks-defence-ties-asean-9.html#ixzz2OKlfwqRj

Russia naval fleet in Cam Ranh bay will handle the 7th fleet like before 1990 and they will block oil route when Russia decide to kick US out of Guam