Japan, Philippines to Combat China’s Assertive Stance at Sea

[BoQ77]

Vietnam members, you driving away the topic. Pls respect.

 

[Kolaps]

I thought Japan love Taiwan... as all Taiwanese love Japan.

But why Japanese make a coalition with Taiwan enemies and want to take away our sea?

@Nihonjin1051 please explain this to me?

 

[NiceGuy]

I thought Japan love Taiwan... as all Taiwanese love Japan.

But why Japanese make a coalition with Taiwan enemies and want to take away our sea?

@Nihonjin1051 please explain this to me?

Bcz TW is just a cheap pawn to US-JP , who cares if u got killed by Phil coast guard ??

 

[libertad]

China is ALREADY in arms race against US with all those shiny toys the PLA want and bought, from jet fighters to ships to rifles, that 'nobody needs'.

China needs them because they are acting defensively. Their military build up is designed to keep us out of their back yard, nothing more. How many countries has China invaded? Is China in a military alliance with any other country? Does China have military presence in other countries? China's military spending is only 20% of amerika, yet congress and the pentagon are hysterical with small increases in its miltary budget. Meanwhile, amerika spends more than the rest of the world combined, has a military treaty with NATO and similar implied treaties with Israel, South Korea, Japan, Arabian Peninsula, Poland, Ukraine, Taiwan etc. We are now putting bases in Australia and Phillipines. These are not defensive measures so whats the point of all this? Furthermore, these countries are rich enough to provide their own defense. Its about the empire wanting to swing its junk in every corner of the globe. Enjoy it while you still can. It won't last.

 

[Aepsilons]

I thought Japan love Taiwan... as all Taiwanese love Japan.

But why Japanese make a coalition with Taiwan enemies and want to take away our sea?

@Nihonjin1051 please explain this to me?

Of course we love Taiwan, probably more than you will ever know. lol.

As you know, Japan and Taiwan had recently signed a maritime boundary pact, as well as an agreement of fisheries processes. The same was done between President Ma's Government and President Aquino's Government, which clarifies fishing boundaries between Taiwan and the Philippines. Understanding and communication is needed to prevent future instances like what happened last year and I am sure the Philippine Coast Guard will be more responsible in reiterating such unfortunate and uncalled interdiction maneuvers as what happened last year.

If you look at the agreement that was signed between some junior members of the Japanese Parliament and members of the Philippine Congress, it is a non-binding agreement that is an act of symbolism -- adjudicating the importance of the rule of law and peace in maritime border. The politicians met not acting on behalf of their parties and governments', but on a personal level -- which is a more touching symbolism as it communicates the shared concern of both nations and their respective citizens.

You very well know how much we Japanese are very fond of Taiwan, and the great respect , adoration we have for the country and the people. This will not change.

Bcz TW is just a cheap pawn to US-JP , who cares if u got killed by Phil coast guard ??

That is absolutely untrue. And the manner in how you project that message is totally unwarranted.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

I hope in the future Turkey can take a part of the burden in protecting our allies like Japan in the future. That is why Turkey should develop global reach to pound China when they start a war with Japan. I think this will happen sooner or later since they can't compete with Japan and get more desperate with the day. Probably they would want to start a war when Chinese economy stands on brink of collapse.

"develop" global reach? LMAO. Sorry, Greece and Armenia are more than enough to handle you.

 

[gambit]

China needs them because they are acting defensively. Their military build up is designed to keep us out of their back yard, nothing more. How many countries has China invaded? Is China in a military alliance with any other country? Does China have military presence in other countries? China's military spending is only 20% of amerika, yet congress and the pentagon are hysterical with small increases in its miltary budget.

Defensive against who/what ? If we wanted to, we could have invade mainland China while the Soviet Union was imploding.

Meanwhile, amerika spends more than the rest of the world combined, has a military treaty with NATO and similar implied treaties with Israel, South Korea, Japan, Arabian Peninsula, Poland, Ukraine, Taiwan etc. We are now putting bases in Australia and Phillipines. These are not defensive measures so whats the point of all this? Furthermore, these countries are rich enough to provide their own defense. Its about the empire wanting to swing its junk in every corner of the globe. Enjoy it while you still can. It won't last.

Who are you to say that our military posture, at home and abroad, is not defensive ? Should allies not look out for each other ? So what if the US spends more on our military than the others combined ? It is not that difficult to find the US military budget in comparison to the rest of the US budget. That is a dishonest argument to start. Our military budget does not come out of other countries' budgets, does it ? It come out of ours. At the Raygun build up, the US military budget was between 5-6%, hardly breaking anyone else's department. Today, it is consistently below 5% for nearly 20 yrs. So regardless of whether those countries can defend themselves or not, we can certainly sustain 5-6% for at least another 100 yrs.

It is people like you that love the proverbial 'big government' that bloated domestic spending. Fraud, Waste, and Abuse (FWA) inside every non-defense department runs in the hundreds of billions, enough to buy dozens more 'shiny new toys' for the Pentagon and leap even further ahead of China. That 17 trillions national debt? Most of it came from domestic spending, from programs that you like, in other words, YOU and your kind are majorly responsible for those trillions.

 

[Genesis]

Why no one was/is alarmed enough to build a peer navy to the USN ? Because despite any hard feelings these countries may have for the US, countries the world over know that the presence of the USN, particularly a carrier fleet, is a good thing for any troubled region. You may not like US as the self appointed "world's policeman" but you sure are damn glad that we are there when there are problems in your backyard. I do not mean 'you' as in China. So in a manner of perspective, the USN is the world's navy.

Who can match the US until pretty much now? Or not even now. Population is one of the major deciding points in total national power. US' 350 million developed people is the most in the world, and by a very large margin.

It takes 4 times the population and will take almost 50 years before China can match the US in total economic power.

Other than us, even the Soviets weren't that close to the power of the US. Less so now.

Whether it is good or not is debatable, I won't point to the middle east region, but two of the top three powers don't like you that much and the other one is yourself.

So who is/are going to spend vital national resources just to try to be a peer to the USN ? Of all the major powers in the world, only Russia and China will attempt and not likely the Russians, not even in our great grandchildren's lifetime. That leave China as the most likely aspirant challenger to the USN.

I said 'aspirant'...

(of a person) having ambitions to achieve something, typically to follow a particular career.

More or less yes, as I said nobody other than us, but you also forgot India, when they get their act together. Despite what they say, they clearly want to match us, the Kolkata class was designed some 10 years ago, when we were at that stage we had no good ships. They already have carriers, their desire for power is apparent, it's just that they are bad at getting it.

Ambition is not a guarantor of success. The driver, may be, but not guarantor. People casually say 'decades' as if time is on China's side that the PLAN, or whoever is the designated successor, will be a peer to the USN, and that the US and her navy will remain static for China's benefits. But the reality is that even if the American economy grows half as much as China's over the next hundred yrs, a wildly optimistic projection for China, the USN will continue to maintain a decisive technological edge over the PLAN in that hundred yrs time span.

The US will grow at least half as fast taking into account inflation, at least, by every major estimation for the future, present, or past.

The US navy has the overwhelming edge, yes, but here's the thing. China's large market allows us to advance far quicker. For example, a nation of China's development level shouldn't have so many top websites, but we do, but one interesting thing, like the rest of countries like ours, our sites haven't really expanded outside of China.

Which means just in China, their worth, visitors, revenues, and all other indicators points to our country's current and future ability to essentially compete with US company's power that has made it to the world.

What does this mean? Our technological advances will be far quicker than say another nation that is further along in development.

US made the first 4th gen in 72, we did it in 03, US made the first 5th gen in 06, we will do it in 16, will it be as good? No, but we have effectively cut the difference by at least 30 years, because then we can't even make it, now it's just a matter of how good it is. Keep in mind opening the door policy happened in 79 and really started in 90s, while massive spending only happened by 2007-08.

It's always faster to catch up, as long as we have the infrastructure in place we will be able to work effectively. When was the last time the US couldn't do something given cash and time? So I conclude either Americans are gods, or nothing realistic is beyond anyone given the resources, and I don't just mean money.

If in 'a true opponent' you mean the POSSIBILITY of anyone else besides China, you are engaging in wishful thinking. By the time the PLAN's sailors mastered carrier fleet operations, not just in training, but in deployment to any part of the world under any sea condition to face uncertain challenges that taxes their intellect, endurance in terms of human and hardware, stresses of environmental and political natures, and return to home ports, the USN will have relegated the aircraft carrier to secondary threat status.

Again, modesty dictates, I don't clearly say China, but essentially that's what I mean, but I also sort of mean India as well.

Ford Class cost what? 15 billion a pop, I'm sure within the foreseeable future it will be important. We will ahve 001a in 2-3 years, 002 in trials before 2020, and a suspicion it will be 19, due to the recent actions of Xi, but it could also be delayed.

003 will be interesting as that will incorporate about a decade of experience to go with a rapid technological advance, which shortens the time needed for us to go to Ford class than for you to go to Ford. You couldn't possibly make the Ford class in the 80s or 90s, but today it's a lot easier, and also one of the reasons we will catch up way sooner.

But your experience on the seas will still play a big role.

After 003, we can either go one more class and 004, or just continue producing them until we hit the sweet spot, a hundred years of carrier experience can be caught up in 2-3 decades, perhaps not all the way, but good enough to challenge.

But to reiterate it won't be easy, the J-15 head designer died of heart attack shortly after he saw the J-15 land on the carrier due to overwork.

Despite being Air Force, I am willing to go on a limb and say that no 'true opponent' will rise to be a peer to the USN for at least one hundred yrs. An opponent to the USN implies that there are enough countries in the world hostile to the US that many of them will attempt to have their navies be a peer to the USN. Are you seeing that today, not just in terms of ideological/political differences but couple them with sufficient national resources to do so ? No, there are none, and believe it or not, no one want to. No one is throwing up his hands and give up. They do not believe an American President is going to wake up one day, throw a dart at the world map, and send a USN carrier fleet to that country's shore and invade for oil and women. No one throw up his hands and give up because they believe the USN is the world's navy, just like no one is going to petition for an alternative police force when the current shire-reeve is doing just fine.

But look at the alarm the PLAN's modernization and aggressive behaviors raises among China's neighbors today.

The Chinese people will not accept a weaker status, neither will any Chinese presidents, democratic or not. It doesn't really matter if we are ok with you.

We don't hate you as much as you think, we are just annoyed, but mostly, our navy isn't to counter yours, it's to advance our own interests and place in the world, cause second place, is tied with last.


Lastly, don't care what our neighbors think, the rise of Prussia almost resulted in its ruin, with the 7 year war, by the end Prussia was a power.

Multiple Chinese empires were ganged up on, but in the end, China is still before your eyes.

Today's challenge isn't from any of our neighbors, but just from you.

 

[libertad]

Defensive against who/what ? If we wanted to, we could have invade mainland China while the Soviet Union was imploding..

LOL you guys are trully insane. We couldn't invade China when they sent over a million volunteers to help North Korea in the Korean war. We told them we would nuke them if they didn't stop and even that didn't faze them. What makes you think we could invade them later? We couldn't sustain war of attrition against 40 odd million vietnamese, how would we have fared against hundreds of millions of Chinese over an area thats 10 times as large? Just more idiot cannon fodder driving the military indurstrial complex and dying for absolutely nothing. I see China acting defensively because we are maintaining a military presence in their back yard in nations that are hostile to them. If we didn't ally with these countries, then all parties involved would be motivated to be civil towards each other. China's reacting in much the same way we reacted when the Soviet Union put missiles in Cuba.

Who are you to say that our military posture, at home and abroad, is not defensive ? Should allies not look out for each other ? So what if the US spends more on our military than the others combined ? It is not that difficult to find the US military budget in comparison to the rest of the US budget. That is a dishonest argument to start. Our military budget does not come out of other countries' budgets, does it ? It come out of ours. At the Raygun build up, the US military budget was between 5-6%, hardly breaking anyone else's department. Today, it is consistently below 5% for nearly 20 yrs. So regardless of whether those countries can defend themselves or not, we can certainly sustain 5-6% for at least another 100 yrs.

How are we acting defensively? Are the Chinese planning an invasion of the US? Iranians? Russians? North Koreans? Its about empire and trying to show everyone who's boss. Alliances should be mutually beneficial. Tell me how involving ourselves in a way against Russia or China at the behest of a Ukraine or Taiwan benefits us. What do we get for our troubles? Why are we still in Japan? Isn't Japan wealthy enough to deal with China on its own, ditto for South Korea? We spend more than anyone else on military, yet we are alarmed when China increases its military spending. How do you reconcile that hypocrisy? Big bad amerika, which despite spending more than everyone else combined, feels compelled to form alliances all over the globe. And this of course is all defensive right?

It is people like you that love the proverbial 'big government' that bloated domestic spending. Fraud, Waste, and Abuse (FWA) inside every non-defense department runs in the hundreds of billions, enough to buy dozens more 'shiny new toys' for the Pentagon and leap even further ahead of China. That 17 trillions national debt? Most of it came from domestic spending, from programs that you like, in other words, YOU and your kind are majorly responsible for those trillions.

You must think i'm some kind of leftist. My avatar tells you what I think of all government.

 

[gambit]

LOL you guys are trully insane. We couldn't invade China when they sent over a million volunteers to help North Korea in the Korean war. We told them we would nuke them if they didn't stop and even that didn't faze them. What makes you think we could invade them later? We couldn't sustain war of attrition against 40 odd million vietnamese, how would we have fared against hundreds of millions of Chinese over an area thats 10 times as large? Just more idiot cannon fodder driving the military indurstrial complex and dying for absolutely nothing. I see China acting defensively because we are maintaining a military presence in their back yard in nations that are hostile to them. If we didn't ally with these countries, then all parties involved would be motivated to be civil towards each other. China's reacting in much the same way we reacted when the Soviet Union put missiles in Cuba.

Nations that are hostile to China, but not the other way around ? China have always had peaceful intentions towards them ?

Lee Kwan Yew told Deng Xiaoping, straight to Deng's face, that China must stop trying to foment racial animosity in Singapore and in other Asian countries where there were sizable Chinese presence. The Singaporeans and others had to continually suffer and worry under China's radio transmissions to overseas Chinese exhorting them to work on behalf of China by way of racial solidarity, and finally that these overseas Chinese should work in promoting Marxism/communism in those host countries.

Yes, we could have invaded mainland China as the Soviet Union was in its death throes. I am not talking about occupying all of China, but that we could have landed on vital locations on mainland China and cripple the PLA.

No, do not try to talk about the Vietnam War. Am willing to bet you were borned after 1975 and what little you know of the VN War, you got it from dishonest sources. Me ? I am a survivor of the VN War. I lived through the 1968 Tet Offensive in Sai Gon. I was dodging bullets as a five yr old when you were not even a gleam of lust in your father's eyes, kid.

How are we acting defensively? Are the Chinese planning an invasion of the US? Iranians? Russians? North Koreans? Its about empire and trying to show everyone who's boss. Alliances should be mutually beneficial. Tell me how involving ourselves in a way against Russia or China at the behest of a Ukraine or Taiwan benefits us. What do we get for our troubles? Why are we still in Japan? Isn't Japan wealthy enough to deal with China on its own, ditto for South Korea? We spend more than anyone else on military, yet we are alarmed when China increases its military spending. How do you reconcile that hypocrisy? Big bad amerika, which despite spending more than everyone else combined, feels compelled to form alliances all over the globe. And this of course is all defensive right?

Hey...You say China's military is for defensively purposes, which is hilarious to start, then I can say the US military is also for defensive purposes. The way you talk about the military, it tells me you know diddly-squat about the military in general. May be even less than diddly-squat.

You must think i'm some kind of leftist. My avatar tells you what I think of all government.

What a convenient retreat. But it would not surprise me one bit that you reserve the most of your hate for the US government, right ?

 

[Pinoy]

I thought Japan love Taiwan... as all Taiwanese love Japan.

But why Japanese make a coalition with Taiwan enemies and want to take away our sea?

@Nihonjin1051 please explain this to me?

What a childish Taiwanese! eat your lollipop, its safer than fish.

 

[BoQ77]

Nations that are hostile to China, but not the other way around ? China have always had peaceful intentions towards them ?

Lee Kwan Yew told Deng Xiaoping, straight to Deng's face, that China must stop trying to foment racial animosity in Singapore and in other Asian countries where there were sizable Chinese presence. The Singaporeans and others had to continually suffer and worry under China's radio transmissions to overseas Chinese exhorting them to work on behalf of China by way of racial solidarity, and finally that these overseas Chinese should work in promoting Marxism/communism in those host countries.

Yes, we could have invaded mainland China as the Soviet Union was in its death throes. I am not talking about occupying all of China, but that we could have landed on vital locations on mainland China and cripple the PLA.

No, do not try to talk about the Vietnam War. Am willing to bet you were borned after 1975 and what little you know of the VN War, you got it from dishonest sources. Me ? I am a survivor of the VN War. I lived through the 1968 Tet Offensive in Sai Gon. I was dodging bullets as a five yr old when you were not even a gleam of lust in your father's eyes, kid.


Hey...You say China's military is for defensively purposes, which is hilarious to start, then I can say the US military is also for defensive purposes. The way you talk about the military, it tells me you know diddly-squat about the military in general. May be even less than diddly-squat.


What a convenient retreat. But it would not surprise me one bit that you reserve the most of your hate for the US government, right ?

If they were in a war like Vietnam war, they would never want it again.

 

[libertad]

Nations that are hostile to China, but not the other way around ? China have always had peaceful intentions towards them ?

Lee Kwan Yew told Deng Xiaoping, straight to Deng's face, that China must stop trying to foment racial animosity in Singapore and in other Asian countries where there were sizable Chinese presence. The Singaporeans and others had to continually suffer and worry under China's radio transmissions to overseas Chinese exhorting them to work on behalf of China by way of racial solidarity, and finally that these overseas Chinese should work in promoting Marxism/communism in those host countries.

Yes, we could have invaded mainland China as the Soviet Union was in its death throes. I am not talking about occupying all of China, but that we could have landed on vital locations on mainland China and cripple the PLA.

The US also employs similar tactics with radio in the Soviet Union and Cuba. I'll admit that China is not a choir boy in all this, but the fact remains that we are over there, in their backyard. How would we react if they put bases in Cuba? Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, Phillipines, Singapore etc are all capable of allying to counter Beijing. Our presence over there does nothing but fuel tensions. Is there any conflict that America has inserted itself that resulted in less tension/probability of war??

No, do not try to talk about the Vietnam War. Am willing to bet you were borned after 1975 and what little you know of the VN War, you got it from dishonest sources. Me ? I am a survivor of the VN War. I lived through the 1968 Tet Offensive in Sai Gon. I was dodging bullets as a five yr old when you were not even a gleam of lust in your father's eyes, kid.

I was born in 83 ftr. I know this much about the war; it was based on a lie and it was pointless. When the dust settled, all of Vietnam still unified under communist rule so what exactly did you accomplish there? 58000 of your compatriots dying pointlessly because of government lies. Was that war defensive as well? As a veteran, you signed up to kill people thousands of miles away who are no threat to my life, property or liberty, while the government you fight for is an extreme threat to all three. Am I supposed to thank you for your service and for 'fighting for my freedoms'?

What a convenient retreat. But it would not surprise me one bit that you reserve the most of your hate for the US government, right ?

nailed it.

 

[gambit]

The US also employs similar tactics with radio in the Soviet Union and Cuba.

By using race ? Did the US broadcast 'white people unite' ?

Here is a snippet of what other Asian countries had to deal with regarding China...

Commanding Heights : Lee Kuan Yew | on PBS

I said: "There are no overseas Russians in this country. The Russians do not broadcast inciting rebellion by communists against their government. You do. You're not only broadcasting, [but] you're also giving them money and arms, so they say let's fight you."

The 'you' here is China. The full meeting with Deng is recalled in Lee's book...

From Third World to First: The Singapore Story - 1965-2000: Lee Kuan Yew: 9780060197766: Amazon.com: Books

Chapter 37. Deng Xiaoping's China

Also, China was openly asserting a special relationship with the oversea Chinese because of blood ties, and was making direct appeals to their patriotism over the heads of the governments of these countries of which they were citizens,...

China was openly racial and racist during those Cold War years in Asia, urging insurrection by Chinese who were citizens not of China but of those other Asian countries, both overt and covert insurrections. It is one thing to appeal to someone's ideological curiosity, but it is base and crass to appeal to racism.

I'll admit that China is not a choir boy in all this, but the fact remains that we are over there, in their backyard. How would we react if they put bases in Cuba? Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, Phillipines, Singapore etc are all capable of allying to counter Beijing. Our presence over there does nothing but fuel tensions. Is there any conflict that America has inserted itself that resulted in less tension/probability of war??

When Lee said to Deng, this...

So I said, You tell us that we shall all, my neighbors and I should join you and fight this Russian proxy. But let me tell you what they want to do is to get me to join them to fight you."

The 'they' composed of the other Asian countries fed up with China exporting Chinese racism in their lands and the 'you' is China, represented by Deng at that time. They, as in the other Asian countries, wanted a unified front to literally fight China if necessary.

Did the US simply barged into these countries' backyards ? No. They actually invited US in, pal. China exhorting oversea Chinese to betray their countries of citizenship is not fueling tensions, but US presence in those countries by invitations -- is ? Lee's conversation with Deng occurred in 1978, but according to Lee, those Asian countries wanted to fight China, physically if necessary, WHILE THE VIETNAM WAR WAS STILL GOING. No one knew how the VN War would turn out, but to them, it was irrelevant because China must be resisted no matter the outcome of the VN War.

If the US is in Asia today, it was because those Asian countries still have memories of what China wanted and did, fool.

I was born in 83 ftr.

And I joined the USAF in 1983.

I know this much about the war; it was based on a lie and it was pointless.

And you are wrong, in the greater scheme of things. Even Russia and China admitted -- finally -- that if the US was not involved in SE Asia, things would have gone much better for the Soviet Union and China, but worse for the people there.

Here are a couple facts for you to chew over:

- The US wanted independence for Indochina, that mean Viet Nam, Laos, and Cambodia.
- It was the Viet Minh who invited France back into Viet Nam.

Now see if you reconcile those facts into whatever feeble knowledge you have about the VN War.

Am I supposed to thank you for your service and for 'fighting for my freedoms'?

Yes, you should.

nailed it.

You and your kind ain't that hard to figure out.

 

[NiceGuy]

- The US wanted independence for Indochina, that mean Viet Nam, Laos, and Cambodia.
- It was the Viet Minh who invited France back into Viet Nam.
.

Poor old man, never stop fooling urself. How many more times I have to give u this link again and again ??

1946

February 1946 - The Chinese under Chiang Kai-shek agree to withdraw from North Vietnam and allow the French to return in exchange for French concessions in Shanghai and other Chinese ports.

March 1946 - Ho Chi Minh agrees to permit French troops to return to Hanoi temporarily in exchange for French recognition of his Democratic Republic of Vietnam. Chinese troops then depart.
The History Place - Vietnam War 1945-1960

France colluded with Chiang Kai-shek to permit French troops to return to Hanoi first, HCM could do nothing but agree with that deal and hope for French recognition of his Democratic Republic of Vietnam

And who did US support ?? French colony or VN ?? Seem like u try to ignore what Martin Luther King said

Now, let me tell you the truth about it. They must see Americans as strange liberators. Do you realize that the Vietnamese people proclaimed their own independence in 1945 after a combined French and Japanese occupation. And incidentally, this was before the Communist revolution in China. They were led by Ho Chi Minh. And this is a little-known fact, and these people declared themselves independent in 1945.

They quoted our Declaration of Independence in their document of freedom, and yet our government refused to recognize them. President Truman said they were not ready for independence. So we fell victim as a nation at that time of the same deadly arrogance that has poisoned the international situation for all of these years. France then set out to reconquer its former colony. And they fought eight long, hard, brutal years trying to re-conquer Vietnam. You know who helped France? It was the United States of America. It came to the point that we were meeting more than eighty percent of the war costs. And even when France started despairing of its reckless action, we did not. And in 1954, a conference was called at Geneva, and an agreement was reached, because France had been defeated at Dien Bien Phu. But even after that, and after the Geneva Accord, we did not stop. We must face the sad fact that our government sought, in a real sense, to sabotage the Geneva Accor
Pacifica Radio/KPFA/UC Berkeley Library: Other Social Activist Movements & Activities Social Activism Sound Recording Project: Martin Luther Kind, "Why I Am Opposed to the War in Vietnam ," April 30, 1967, Riverside Church, New York

U can keep lying, but people will listen to what Martin Luther King said, not a VN hater like u.