Japan out as China emerges new contender in Karachi Circular Railway project

[El Sidd]

yeh cheez.. yehi main kehna chah raha tha.. shukar hai aap ne khud hi keh dia..

Yahan Courts bhi mafia ka part hain, political parties bhi, institutions bhi, transporters bhi, aur general public bhi... election commission bhi aur national assembly bhi..

No comments

 

[PakSword]

No comments

Thank you!

 

[El Sidd]

Thank you!

I refuse to believe in that.

Pakistan me har type k log baste hain.

Niyyat ki baat hoti hai.

Niyyat pe shakk nahi kr sakte

 

[PakSword]

I refuse to believe in that.

Pakistan me har type k log baste hain.

Niyyat ki baat hoti hai.

Niyyat pe shakk nahi kr sakte

Main ne kab kaha ke aik hi tarah ke log bastay hain?

 

[El Sidd]

Main ne kab kaha ke aik hi tarah ke log bastay hain?

Sir kisko kese hidayat mil jae kia pata.

Dil abhi kalaay nahi hue itne

 

[WhyCry]

Few Points ,
Japan , China
Greater Leverage ,
how many countries were running to invest in Pakistan Before CEPC ?
which country is investing 1/3 of the amount in china is investing in Pakistan
Yes Debt will always be problem but Chinese are not that idiot to invest that much amount in some other country without knowing there investment will Pay off
Majority of these Projects are being done by China
Because Pakistani Gov wasnt doing Jack Beside point fingers and corruption , and that involves past Govs 2 ,
Pakistani Nation will be the who will take benefit from these projects , and when you take a loan you have to pay it back happens everywhere no free lunches
and 1 Major Point ,
If China and Japan has to infrastructure in some 3rd country few things comes in play
Infrastructure , Importing Items , Work Force, China fills all these points and much cheaper rate
and if its cheaper who will take the most advantage ? beside Gov it will be people
You Can start a built train but will it feasible if no one can afford it
and Before point fingers without any reason
Please Give some Proof , Everything Pakistani Gov is not a great conspiracy against Pakistani nations

You are quite right for the most part but not for the whole of it.

Your Quote: "Infrastructure , Importing Items , Work Force, China fills all these points and much cheaper rate"

Yes, but they get that done because they get Chinese state owned companies, importing chinese furnished materials and getting it done with chinese labor. Hence the cost of the program will be comparatively less. But this is only helping the chinese economy only. Citing my previous example above, Japanese single handedly initiated a road and traffic revolution in Indian capital and around its most part. India two decades later are now making those bridges between points longer, farther and higher apart. Japanese project was that trigger.

Usually, the infrastructure projects are done to trigger/stimulate a mass growth prospect and influence the general population. This has failed miserably in china where they have created "Ghost Towns". Now they are exporting the same notion like that to central africa, Hambantota (sri lanka) or gwadar.

They have made it a habit to give humongous loans that those countries can't even get and adding them to their circle of circular debt. They can do this infinitely until they have good value add products to export, cheap steel and labor and tremendous rate of return.

 

[Darth Vader]

You are quite right for the most part but not for the whole of it.

Your Quote: "Infrastructure , Importing Items , Work Force, China fills all these points and much cheaper rate"

Yes, but they get that done because they get Chinese state owned companies, importing chinese furnished materials and getting it done with chinese labor. Hence the cost of the program will be comparatively less. But this is only helping the chinese economy only. Citing my previous example above, Japanese single handedly initiated a road and traffic revolution in Indian capital and around its most part. India two decades later are now making those bridges between points longer, farther and higher apart. Japanese project was that trigger.

Usually, the infrastructure projects are done to trigger/stimulate a mass growth prospect and influence the general population. This has failed miserably in china where they have created "Ghost Towns". Now they are exporting the same notion like that to central africa, Hambantota (sri lanka) or gwadar.

They have made it a habit to give humongous loans that those countries can't even get and adding them to their circle of circular debt. They can do this infinitely until they have good value add products to export, cheap steel and labor and tremendous rate of return.

Few points ,
When a genuine tender is given ,every one will chose , Low rates with Best Services ,
Now China is Doing That ,

As i dont know Much about Japanese investment in india i wont Say anything about it ,
But 1 Point about ghost Towns , and Gwadar

Majority of Current Pakistani Population is in Villages , And Majority of population is not even connected Properly
in Upcoming Few Decades Pakistan will have to distribute its majority population throughout Pakistan to Save Resources and Exploit the Benefit of having Cheap and young Labour , Pakistan needs to start Loads of These Projects and Try to invest in Population otherwise there is not ,
And Majority of these countries lacked 1 Point which was Human Capital

For Gwadar even if we take china Out from the equation and count them as a normal investor
Pakistan Will need Deep Water port to shift burden from Karachi , Pakistan has 200M untapped population ,

1 major Reason for India and Chinas Growth was there Human Capital, which was educated , young with Skills
Now its Pakistan's turn in few years and lets see what happens , are they able to use it or not

 

[shjliu]

Costs are an important factor no doubt, but having several "Suppliers" for example, helps mitigate some risks involved with having just one supplier/party. All respect to China, but personally as a businessman, I would never ever rely on one party to provide everything. It gives it far too much leverage over me, apart from the previously mentioned issues. It also provides a wider range of channels from which to procure goods and services, creating competition between different companies and service providers, and ensuring a higher quality of work and end product.

And more importantly, it provides an incentive to other foreign companies that we are open for business and investment from a much more diverse source, instead of showing bias to one over another.

but in your opinion, as a businessman, who do you think have better technology? better price? better chance to complete in time? plus transfer some of the technology to Pakistan? please name another country or company can do that.

 

[Shahzaz ud din]

Costs are an important factor no doubt, but having several "Suppliers" for example, helps mitigate some risks involved with having just one supplier/party. All respect to China, but personally as a businessman, I would never ever rely on one party to provide everything. It gives it far too much leverage over me, apart from the previously mentioned issues. It also provides a wider range of channels from which to procure goods and services, creating competition between different companies and service providers, and ensuring a higher quality of work and end product.

And more importantly, it provides an incentive to other foreign companies that we are open for business and investment from a much more diverse source, instead of showing bias to one over another.

False flagger

 

[Saif-ud-Din Qutuz]

With China, at least it'll get done not suspended till decades and decades.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Just my 2 cents from experience, Japan was investing in India for a bridge around 1996-1997, They were to make the bridge in 4-5 years and the cost was upwards of 600 Crores (That time amount). It WON the bid and started working on it and finished the same in around 9-10 months. They even got the completion certificate under 1 year. Remember there was babu-raj and that itself takes over months and/or bribes. At the end they finished the project, gave contractors the knowledge, technology and equipment to use and bureaucrats what to expect in terms for quality and construction time. With-in next 7 years Delhi and surrounding areas were infested with bridges, over-bridges and new roads.

In case I forgot to tell you, the initial bridge they build, they didn't even charged a penny. It was told that this was a token of appreciation for India-Japan relationship.

FYI- Indian PM Modi is doing the same for railways.

Same goes for Chinese, they are efficient and workaholic. The JF17 project wouldnt have completed well before time had they not brought their work ethics in PAC.

As for Japs, they are in American led camp with included India, hence the higher level of interaction between Japs and India. Why would Pakistan be giving its project to Japan when China is also among the bidder?

And your grasp of geopolitics is self-imposed isolation in favor of China? How well has this worked out for North Korea and Venezuela?

It is easy for Chinese firms to get contracts without facing much competition in Pakistan. The Bhutto(s) of PPP and Sharif(s) of PML(N) do not have any sense of strategic depth and vision for foreign policy of Pakistan - their worldview starts from China and ends at China (no disrespect intended to Chinese members here). To them, commissions are more important than quality work and scores of Chinese firms are willing to oblige them in this respect. However, common folk get the impression that (only) China is serious about investing in Pakistan [which is not true] and they are winning contracts in completely fair bids [which is not true].

I live in Lahore and I have seen how much quality work is occurring here. A large number of roads are in terrible condition, public transportation is almost irrelevant in many areas and even the new METRO project looks shaddy.

Your understanding is flawed. Its not about isolation but priorities. And it is not just China but Turkey is getting their shares of project as well.

The fact this project is being delayed by japs for more then 3 years, that goes to show they are either not efficient or deliberately trying to delay due to their alliances with US and India. Plus, I dont recall them doing any worth while project in Pakistan, even at the time when Pakistan was supposedly in American camp.

Economy and geopolitics are inter connected very much. Pakistan as a state needs to ensure that the economic benefits it can offer, first and foremost go to its allies.

 

[LeGenD]

Your understanding is flawed. Its not about isolation but priorities. And it is not just China but Turkey is getting their shares of project as well.

My understanding is sound.

I have already pointed out to you that our political leaders have no sense of strategic depth and diversifying investments; they are mostly interested in commissions and are known to award contracts of many projects to those firms who are willing to oblige them in this regard and/or other forms of irregularities, and many Chinese firms are willing to (mostly private). This come down to work ethics.

The fact this project is being delayed by japs for more then 3 years, that goes to show they are either not efficient or deliberately trying to delay due to their alliances with US and India. Plus, I dont recall them doing any worth while project in Pakistan, even at the time when Pakistan was supposedly in American camp.

Why are you blaming Japan for the lack of implementation on this project? Pakistani sources have clearly pointed out that encroachment on relevant lands was the reason for lack of progress. It was the responsibility of Sindh government to address the issue of encroachment, not the relevant Japanese firm.

Economy and geopolitics are inter connected very much. Pakistan as a state needs to ensure that the economic benefits it can offer, first and foremost go to its allies.

We need to expand the number of our "allies" then; offering (fair) investment opportunities to a large number of states is a necessary step towards this end [sworn enemies can be excluded of-course]. Our worldview should not be restricted to China and Turkey [only]. There are many states that are willing to do business with Pakistan on fair terms. Many American firms are also willing.

Our foreign trade portfolio extends to scores of states across the world [including those whom you despise]. Should all of them terminate all forms of trade with Pakistan - besides Turkey and China - how well Pakistan would be doing economically then?

No harm in doing business with Turkey and China but our leaders should strive for highest quality work under specified budgets for major projects and award contracts to the best firm in completely fair bids. In short: Chinese and Turkish firms should compete with others [in a fair manner] to win the bid for a major project in Pakistan. Exceptions can be made in projects [of strategic value] but this should not be the norm in projects for the benefit of the public.

Encouraging friendly states to invest in Pakistan is one thing (already happening); being fair in business practices is very important in its own right.

I don't think China is much behind in technology specifically in railways..

This comes down to [our] choice - which Chinese firm was awarded the contract? its level of expertise? work experience? and terms of contract?

Remember the substandard Chinese locomotives that we received some years ago? Not only that but delay in their delivery costed our railways billions in currency: http://fp.brecorder.com/2017/04/20170405164252/

Pakistani state seriously needs to revisit its business ethics.

Some Chinese firms are willing to do an excellent job for the right price and may not compromise on their work ethics but many are not like this (mostly private firms). I know through personal contacts the real reason(s) why the Neelum–Jhelum Hydropower project experienced massive delays and cost penalties.

Conversely, Chinese government is not likely to compromise on quality of work across mainland China; they allocate ample funds for this purpose and award contracts to most capable Chinese firms for the same. Chinese members are in a better position to elaborate in this regard.

 

[WhyCry]

Same goes for Chinese, they are efficient and workaholic. The JF17 project wouldnt have completed well before time had they not brought their work ethics in PAC.

As for Japs, they are in American led camp with included India, hence the higher level of interaction between Japs and India. Why would Pakistan be giving its project to Japan when China is also among the bidder?

Please leave your strategic mind off to the side and find a reason for the partner/s which are good for the people of pakistan.

Few points ,
When a genuine tender is given ,every one will chose , Low rates with Best Services ,
Now China is Doing That ,

As i dont know Much about Japanese investment in india i wont Say anything about it ,
But 1 Point about ghost Towns , and Gwadar

Majority of Current Pakistani Population is in Villages , And Majority of population is not even connected Properly
in Upcoming Few Decades Pakistan will have to distribute its majority population throughout Pakistan to Save Resources and Exploit the Benefit of having Cheap and young Labour , Pakistan needs to start Loads of These Projects and Try to invest in Population otherwise there is not ,
And Majority of these countries lacked 1 Point which was Human Capital

For Gwadar even if we take china Out from the equation and count them as a normal investor
Pakistan Will need Deep Water port to shift burden from Karachi , Pakistan has 200M untapped population ,

1 major Reason for India and Chinas Growth was there Human Capital, which was educated , young with Skills
Now its Pakistan's turn in few years and lets see what happens , are they able to use it or not

This is exactly my saying...

If they are going to bring in Chinese people from the mainland in pakistan to work on CPEC then the human capital will not grow. Another reason, even though the average population is very young (even younger than Indian at 28). They need to find more opportunities for their own population. Sadly, Terrorism pays dearly in pakistan and hence youth are attracted due to financial, belief and political constraints.

Another reason their Human capital is not growing is due to their share to education. It is the lowest in the world, even though its aided by USAID and even the educated ones are mostly from Madrassa education.

 

[Pakistani E]

but in your opinion, as a businessman, who do you think have better technology? better price? better chance to complete in time? plus transfer some of the technology to Pakistan? please name another country or company can do that.

I am not privy to the conditions and limitations put on non Chinese tenders. I am talking merely from a political point of view, I don't want Pakistan to do the same mistake as before and rely on only one country for everything.

Also read @LeGenD post as it is more articulate and I agree with it 100%.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Please leave your strategic mind off to the side and find a reason for the partner/s which are good for the people of pakistan.

In this particular instance, japs have been delaying the project for last few years hence they been kicked out and Chinese brought in. And your point is?