J-31, a long way to come on board

[Paksanity]

Well there is also something called Judging one's own needs, Unlike China which has 20-30 Projects , we don't have that luxury , the existing J-31 is in itself a great plus a running program with working copies of technology platform we need to upgrade our Airforce


J-20 is a Monster comparatively

For Pakistan's Airforce J-31 is sufficient for the role it will play , it is a upgrade because we are really aiming for plane beyond the 80's decade and finally starting to focus on present day.

Presently the plane carried 4 missiles that obviously have to improve to 8 missiles
Otherwise the plane looks to be shaping up nicely

18 Units is just about what we need initially to test drive the technology

How can a decision be made with only one prototype flying? It has yet not completed preliminary tests. Do we just commit our money only to find out later it does not do what it is suppose to do? There are two ways of doing it.

1) We become partner in program like JF-17. Commit development funds and hope for the best. This is what Chinese are asking.

2) Ask Chinese to developers the plane and show us what it can really do. We will test it thoroughly and make the decision afterwards. This is what PAF is saying.

Without a commitment from PLAAF which does not appear to be coming, we might get stuck with a plane which can not do what it is suppose to do. Are we in position to take such risk?

P.S. If aircraft was designed for 4 missiles, it will carry only 4. You can not magically expand the internal weapons bay. You want 8 missiles? Design a new aircraft.

 

[Eagle Claw]

The idea about two squadron of Mig-35 and two squadrons of J-7 in opening post, not very bright. It will be a logistic nightmare. One need to work out the costs involved in operating so many different platforms in such small numbers. Thankfully, PAF seems to be very well aware of this situation. The idea is to make JF-17 the spine, keep improving it while operating one or two other kinds of aircraft for high end missions, a perfect Hi-Lo operational capability. The F-16 for now and a 4.5 or a 5th generation plane in future will fulfill this role.

I would personally like very much if we can get one 4/4.5 generation plane right now to support the JF17 young fleet and the F16s. That will give us another 10 to 12 years to wait for the most suitable 5th generation options. By that time the options (we all know which options we will have) would have matured as well. Making it through these 12 15 years is crucial without committing much resources to a not so mature platform. A good 4.5 generation platform, in half decent numbers, four squadrons or so will give us the crucial breathing space. There are quite a few options and if we are willing to spend the money, we can get what we want. PAF for now is trying to achieve that by getting more F16, anyway they can. The idea behind the push seems to be the same.

As for the future, if we do manage to secure some deal that will take us through these 12 15 years, we would end up with two most probable options for a 5th generation plane. A procurement that may well see some JF17 and F16s replaced. The PAF fleet will then most likely be comprising on JF17, a 4/4.5 gen plane that we should be buying now and a 5th gen plane that we chose. The options will most likely be J-31 from China or the Turkish TFX. For now, Chinese is the obvious better choice. The Turkish option have western connection the Chinese won’t have any such threads. The Chinese have significantly large knowledge base compared to Turkish who will be going for their first indigenous fighter plane program while China have done it quite a few times. They even have two 5th gen programs and J-31 will surely benefit from J20 success (even failure). Also by that time, PAF would be even more familiar with Chinese machines, producing them at home will be relatively slightly easy due to the past experiences. However, this is all for now. Once we get to that point, the decisions will be best made at that time. For now, the best option will be to keep investing in JF-17, keeping pushing for F-16s and see if you can cough up funds for a good 4.5 gen plane (the Su35, Chinese J10B, J11 or may be some European option though unlikely)

Regards!
Arsalan

Yap but I don't think so adding Mig-35 will be a logistic nightmare as it has engine commonalities with JF-17 Thunder. JH-7B is from China, and costs not more than a piece of Thunder.
In anycase, they have to add atleast 1 platform thats the need of time. We can't just wait for J-31 to come while not having something 4.5 or 4++ Gen.
And regarding J-31, Chinese are also concerned and say that it needs alot of improvement. J-31 can develop into a more competitive bird only if *PLAAF* or *PLAAN* is ready to fund the project.
As what we are hearing now that Project is going considerably slow and only Shenyang Corporation is funding the project. It will take alot of time to enter mass production, thats obvious and might not get as capable as J-20.
And as @Paksanity has said, we might end up watching Saga of F-20 Tighershark

 

[muhammadali233]

P.S. If aircraft was designed for 4 missiles, it will carry only 4. You can not magically expand the internal weapons bay. You want 8 missiles? Design a new aircraft.

You can carry extra weapons on the wings but it will increase the RCS not much but sufficient enough for a sophisticated Radar(which our neighbours do not posses) to pick up a signal .

 

[Arsalan]

Yap but I don't think so adding Mig-35 will be a logistic nightmare as it has engine commonalities with JF-17 Thunder. JH-7B is from China, and costs not more than a piece of Thunder.
In anycase, they have to add atleast 1 platform thats the need of time. We can't just wait for J-31 to come while not having something 4.5 or 4++ Gen.
And regarding J-31, Chinese are also concerned and say that it needs alot of improvement. J-31 can develop into a more competitive bird only if *PLAAF* or *PLAAN* is ready to fund the project.
As what we are hearing now that Project is going considerably slow and only Shenyang Corporation is funding the project. It will take alot of time to enter mass production, thats obvious and might not get as capable as J-20.
And as @Paksanity has said, we might end up watching Saga of F-20 Tighershark

I wont say "they have to add at least 1 platform thats the need of time". As i mentioned, the perfect solution will be to keep investing in JF17, keep pushing for F16s AND IF POSSIBLE go for a proper 4.5 gen plane but then buy around 4 squadrons at least so all concerns are answered for considerable time until a 5th generation option matures. Buying a couple of squadrons of a couple of different planes in not very suitable, the integration costs will be HUGE!! {lus the Mig35 uses RD33 engine sir.

 

[Paksanity]

You can carry extra weapons on the wings but it will increase the RCS not much but sufficient enough for a sophisticated Radar(which our neighbours do not posses) to pick up a signal .

We are talking internal weapons capacity. That's the whole point of stealth. That capacity will remain same.

By the way 4 missiles on a stealth plane are sufficient to get the job done. You don't need more. F-35 also carries 4 missiles internally. Only F-22 carries 6.

JH-7B is from China, and costs not more than a piece of Thunder.

JH-7B will cost you $150 million+ per aircraft. And then you require a horde of other jets to protect it all the time. I don't know how this strange fetish with this aircraft began. If anything, PLAAF reaction should tell us it is a dud. They don't show any love for it.

 

[Arsalan]

You can carry extra weapons on the wings but it will increase the RCS not much but sufficient enough for a sophisticated Radar(which our neighbors do not posses) to pick up a signal .

Can you please enlighten us all about the two points i marked in red?

We all know that carrying weapons on wings will increase RCS and in fact, it is one thing that contributes quite significantly to any planes RCS, what makes you say that the increase in RCS will not be much? I will like to know about the base on this claim, it sounds interesting and completely new to me.

Also about the sophisticated radar thing, what do you mean by Sophisticated radars in the first place? which radar you think are sophisticated and which are not? what makes them sophisticated and at the end, kindly please guide us to a link that confirms that our neighbors do not have such technology.

Will be really grateful.

Regards
Arsalan

 

[Beast]

Turkey will own the rights to the engines and can sell to whoever it wants. One of the key demands of the Turks.

No, it can't. Sorry for your delusion. The capabilities of Turkish is not as great as you all think.

 

[Eagle Claw]

I wont say "they have to add at least 1 platform thats the need of time". As i mentioned, the perfect solution will be to keep investing in JF17, keep pushing for F16s AND IF POSSIBLE go for a proper 4.5 gen plane but then buy around 4 squadrons at least so all concerns are answered for considerable time until a 5th generation option matures. Buying a couple of squadrons of a couple of different planes in not very suitable, the integration costs will be HUGE!! {lus the Mig35 uses RD33 engine sir.

Sir are we not pushing towards RD-33 MK for JF-17 Thunder ??
Same engines are used by Mig-35 if I am not mistaken
And even if the Engine might be any other variant, but the family is still the same.

 

[Beast]

Nobody said it was easy, but the Turks have the commitment, the money and the resources to pull it off.

They lack the know how and extensive talent. Plus the mega infrastructure development to lift your overall country technology level to next level. For example, has turkey until now grasped the technology level for aviation 3D printing?

 

[Eagle Claw]

JH-7B will cost you $150 million+ per aircraft. And then you require a horde of other jets to protect it all the time. I don't know how this strange fetish with this aircraft began. If anything, PLAAF reaction should tell us it is a dud. They don't show any love for it.

What :o ???

 

[Paksanity]

What :o ???

Yes my friend. Prices are quoted at flyaway cost. At that cost aircraft is of no use. It can't even fly. You can parade it on national day, loaded on a trailer. That's all it is good for at fly away cost.

 

[Arsalan]

Sir are we not pushing towards RD-33 MK for JF-17 Thunder ??
Same engines are used by Mig-35 if I am not mistaken
And even if the Engine might be any other variant, but the family is still the same.

The PUSH towards RD33 is a speculation for now. PAF officials have also confirmed on quite a few occasions that they are OK with RD93. The other option is a Chinese engine for export purposes. RD33 for JF17 is not something happening currently!

 

[Falcon26]

They lack the know how and extensive talent. Plus the mega infrastructure development to lift your overall country technology level to next level. For example, has turkey until now grasped the technology level for aviation 3D printing?

They might lack in critical areas but that's why SAAB and BAE are heavily involved.

 

[Eagle Claw]

The PUSH towards RD33 is a speculation for now. PAF officials have also confirmed on quite a few occasions that they are OK with RD93. The other option is a Chinese engine for export purposes. RD33 for JF17 is not something happening currently!

Its not happening Currently for Block1s and Block2s but what about Block 3 ??
There has been no statement regarding the fact that we are interested in WS-13. But regarding RD series engines there is always something to hear from Officials.

 

[Beast]

They might lack in critical areas but that's why SAAB and BAE are heavily involved.

SAAB and BAE are not stupid to pass the critical know how to turkish. If so, Turkey will have long admitted to EU. Turkey is considered a outside member of the big 3 in Europe.
They are something that money can't buy. It takes many years of research, investment(not few billions but double digit billions to materialise which I doubt Turkey has) in your infrastructure to upgrade your overall national technology level.