J-10 might not needed as they don't add anything to PAF's capability

[Signalian]

AESA name Sir?
Like Type XYZ.
What ever it is, I need to know.
I am not here to debate with you.

NRIET J-10B X-band AESA

The NRIET J-10B AESA is our 1.5th generation design based on GaAs dual channel TR module technology, providing ~1200 TR channels”, the J-10B AESAis the first design to be publicly shown installed in a fighter aircraft, and may be an evolution of the 1152 channel demonstrator described by NRIET engineers Xia and Niu. The airborne demonstrator employed a “linear sub array”configuration, with modules arranged in vertically aligned sticks


Reference:

1. C.Xia, B.Niu, “A Kind of Active Phased Array System with High Density Architecture”, Modern Radar, Vol.2011 Iss.5, May, 2011.

2. Advances in Russian and Chinese Active Electronically Steered Arrays (AESAs)
written by: Carlo Kopp
Clayton School of Information Technology
Monash University, Clayton, 3800, Australia
Carlo.Kopp@monash.edu
https://www.scribd.com/doc/254309277/Advances-in-Chinese-and-Russian-AESA

 

[RAMPAGE]

@MastanKhan

Let present another idea to you. I disagree with you on many things but I've always supported your stance against the notion that is PAF being a defensive airforce.

As Joe sahab has said that we certainly cannot hope to match India fighter for fighter and tank for tank (and we certainly don't have to) but the there are indeed certain opportunities that present themselves which should be taken full advantage of.

PAF cannot hope to inflict major losses on the IAF once it is in the air. Previous engagements prove that the majority of enemy aircrafts destroyed were on the ground in air-raids on IAF airfields. Now luck has provided Pakistan with China as replacement for US and FC-31 as 21st century alternative to F-104/Sabre.

F-35's kill ratio of 8:0 against F-15E means that these 5th gen fighters are certainly a bang for the buck as long as they're facing previous generation fighters and excellent for bombing missions with stand-off munitions. It would be a masterstroke if Pakistan can operationalize a squadron of FC-31 BLK 2 before the Indians acquire a 5th gen fighter and manage to keep it a secret.

Just imagine for a moment, a formation of 3 x FC-31s carrying Chinese/Pakistani substitute for 8 x brimstones (60 KM range) or the same number of GBU-53s (105 KM range) plus 2 x PL-15s inside its weapons bay. The 3 of them would be able to fire 24 ASMs at 24 different hangers/aircrafts. And they will certainly return back unharmed and probably without facing any opposition from IAF in the air.

That's just a formation of 3 aircrafts. 18 such aircrafts would be able to mount a raid on 6 different locations simultaneously. Imagine the impact of just one such operation on the outcome of a war. the All that achieved with an investment of $2 billion.

And then there are they scaled down ALCMs, decoys and anti radiation missiles. The timely acquisitions of such weapons will make all the difference in the outcome of a war.

 

[MastanKhan]

@RAMPAGE

Hi,

Thank you for your mention. To put a true monkey wrench in the opponents planning---the Paf must go for a heavy strike aircraft---like a SU34----or a J16----and if not then the JH7B.

The F35---will not not perform to its fullest without a complimentary heavy strike aircraft and neither would the F22---.

Keeping that in mind---it is alright to assume that to use the J31 to its fullest----you will need a complimentary strike aircraft.

What will happen is---as the americans are saying that the stealth aircraft will go deeper into enemy territory without being detected and from their---it can target the weapons from the heavy strike aircraft thru data link and launch them as well.

So---the scenario maybe that the J31 is flying at night time over the arabian seas flies closer to the target on the coastline---and targets the Hatf 8 or CM400 AKG missile from the JH7B that is flying 275---300 miles away from the coastline---at the target and launches it as well---.

After the launch from 275 miles away---the JH7B turns around and is long gone and the J31 cans lip away as well.

Paf does not need to counter the opponent aircraft for aircraft---a 450 to 500 aircraft air force will do wonders---.

But the J31 in itself it will be a tough going---.

Because of the geographical area of pakistan and with in inception of long range ALCM's and other missiles and bombs---24---48 hours is the time period for paf to smash the coastline cities of maharashtra state on one side---and on the other side---fly over the high mountains and strike eastern areas of the opponent.

The true thought to be imagined is this---just imagine an air launched babur cruise missile with range extender--aflight of 4 JH7B's flying down over the arabian seas 400 miles then turning sharply towards the coastline and launching cruise missiles 250 miles away from the coast line and targeting areas 1000 km away----and after launch---turning away and are gone..

I would rather have 250 JF17---60--80 JH7B's and currently 80-90 F16's---+ another 75 mlu'd F16's.

It is because of the COWARDICE shown by the Paf in not procuring the right aircraft in the last 15 years---that india has smashed us into a pulp on the world forum---.

With the timely purchase of the right aircraft---india would not have nade military threats at us as it is doing now.

Remember Gen Musharraf---what he stated---' we also have plans to strike india '.

Pakistani military is in a position to move faster into the enemy area than the india army can deploy---.

The only weak link has been the air force---.

 

[I.R.A]

we have nuclear weapons as deterrence and we need a more modernized and slim force rather than a large but obsolete force.

Please bear with my little knowledge of defense related matters, but what you are proposing does not makes any sense to a layman like me. Are you looking at single scenario where you have to worry about border with India and "a may be" conventional war with India only?

How does a reduced force ensure security of CPEC (huge), Balochistan (area wise largest province of Pakistan), border with Afghanistan and a volatile region like FATA (the ruthless terrain), Siachin and AJK in addition to be ready for war with India? And top it with you have 99% corrupt and incompetent police taking care of law and order situation in cities and towns. (I assume that modernized nukes, tactical nukes, jets, drones, and naval ships and submarines cannot take care of all this).

@MastanKhan sir 42 pages of discussion and a common Pakistani like me can only infer that somehow our air force is afraid of diversifying ........................ in fact its more of a case of a substitution? If they are not afraid of that then they must be waiting for some critical moment or a future event to happen before they go a head with replacement or procurement plans?

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan sir 42 pages of discussion and a common Pakistani like me can only infer that somehow our air force is afraid of diversifying ........................ in fact its more of a case of a substitution? If they are not afraid of that then they must be waiting for some critical moment or a future event to happen before they go a head with replacement or procurement plans?

Hi,

In technical terms---a lack of diversification means DEATH of the system. We already saw the death of the system---with 10 years sanctions---we are seeing the first signs of second death to the system---a talk of sanctions.

In military how do you fix this problem---specially for a country like pakistan---. Russians---chinese and north koreans have always had great solutions---executions by a firing squad---and when you include the family as well---it makes the generals do great things with the given resources.

 

[I.R.A]

Hi,

In technical terms---a lack of diversification means DEATH of the system. We already saw the death of the system---with 10 years sanctions---we are seeing the first signs of second death to the system---a talk of sanctions.

In military how do you fix this problem---specially for a country like pakistan---. Russians---chinese and north koreans have always had great solutions---executions by a firing squad---and when you include the family as well---it makes the generals do great things with the given resources.

I don't know sir, I would like many more to face the firing squad but as a negligible expandable citizen of Pakistan, I can only hope they remember what Jinnah had dreamt and said about air power

'There is no doubt that a country without a strong Air Force is at the mercy of any aggressor. Pakistan must build up her air force as quickly as possible. It must be an efficient air force second to none and must take its right place with the Army and the Navy in securing Pakistan's Defence.'

 

[ziaulislam]

most of F-16s come from US aid

you are living in foul world...Saying everything was US Aid is insult to poor people of Pakistan dying of hunger, poverty and women in hospital after childbirth..

who the hell paid 4 billion dollars in 1990s..and over 3 billion dollars in 2000s...

USA financial AID has barely just covered military operational requirement(to put in context, ANA received over 4 billion dollars every year for operational requirement, and coalition forces over 10 billion $ every month, Pakistan received 1/100th of that10-12 over 15 years), and it is transparent, you can check it on their own website, all major defense deals and FMF, so you cant conjure myths like we do for Arab countries helping Pakistan...
i am for one who denies that we received any help, as is the govt, otherwise you would have obliged to help them

regarding f-16 their only aid was 500 million dollars for modernization of f-16 which can notified and published like all FMF.

 

[ebrahym]

you are living in foul world...Saying everything was US Aid is insult to poor people of Pakistan dying of hunger, poverty and women in hospital after childbirth..

who the hell paid 4 billion dollars in 1990s..and over 3 billion dollars in 2000s...

USA financial AID has barely just covered military operational requirement(to put in context, ANA received over 4 billion dollars every year for operational requirement, and coalition forces over 10 billion $ every month, Pakistan received 1/100th of that10-12 over 15 years), and it is transparent, you can check it on their own website, all major defense deals and FMF, so you cant conjure myths like we do for Arab countries helping Pakistan...
i am for one who denies that we received any help, as is the govt, otherwise you would have obliged to help them

regarding f-16 their only aid was 500 million dollars for modernization of f-16 which can notified and published like all FMF.

with all due respect
denying that we did not had any AID is beyond my poor mind
what i have concluded in my finding is that even if we have paid for them
this defence budget of ours had a little effect on our economy
our economy has been shook mostly by 90s sanctions and Zardari tenure
Blaming our defence budget for this is more than foolish
we forget what happened in 2008 collapse of KSE
sanctions of 90s, corruption of Zardari
and district level corruption in mushy's era

 

[!eon]

You are saying I have written long but if you get spacing out of my post, the following post of yours would be equally long.
Never said and not saying that JF-17 is useless regarding it's size. Recently they put AAMs on K-8P, that's not useless either. The thing is, it's enough ? Is that what Pakistan only needed ? No sorry with huge enemy next gate and position of Pakistan in the area, that's not what Pakistan only needed in modern days. J-10 could play role of JF-17 but vice versa is not possible.
US was spying on Israeli F-16s and Pakistan can never enjoy the position close to US as Israel does. So where lies the trust ? More over Pakistan's block 52s are flying under US observation. For the older ones, Pakistan doesn't need US permissions but what happened in 90s ? Why not same could happen in future ? and in war that would be catastrophic. No matter what you say, Pakistan was and is not very pleasant customer of US. It was like pain in butt, you can't totally leave it, and you don't want to give it your good guns. Whether Pakistan Air Force likes it or not, the sides in the region's geo politics have been picked. And what kind of customer would be India for US, you will see in coming days.
I studied in German local system. There was no Bachelor, Master available for locals. That was changed gradually from 2008-2012 due to EU requirements. We used to study one long five years degree after completion of 13 years of schooling. I worked in industry but my goal remained to establish my own composite production facility. I am gaining capital for that by through other business. Hopefully next year I'll be able to establish weaving and molding units. That's what I am saying for PAF also. Now that they have JF-17 in stock and production, they can use it to get something bigger. But pilots are pilots. They can't be marketing and finance managers. That's why we have different professions in this world. In PAF Air Marshals are every thing.
One thing more, hard hitting than any thing else. You can't negate huge corruptions in Pakistan. No single institution is free from it. If you are business man you know more than other on this topic and if you have done some contracts with PAF, you know even something further. I don't want to say anything more on corruption.

Intersting and a long post. Took some time reading it. Thanks. As to the Sub continent war it is a guess so who is right remains to be seen.
The business of F16s being used against IAF has been discussed to death. There is no evidence that anyone has produced to suggest that to be the case. PAF would not be going out procuring more and more F16s for MLU if this was so. I can reiterate that i firmly believe that there will be no impediment to the use of F16s in a war against India and anyone who says otherwise needs to qualify it with reasoning. So for a war against india the f16s are pretty much on and no one should fall into this conspiracy theory.

On this thread I had posted specs of both the planes(post#472). Have a look at them and then start your comparison.If there are updated specs please post them along side the old ones.
You mentioned you have done a Project in composite Carbon fibre. What level was that on, ie MS or PHD. Where did you do the research or was it purely a theoretical project. Please elaborate.
There is nothing wrong with the size of JFT. What is wrong ewith people is their inability tpo visualize what a huge milestone it has been for PAF and Pakistan. We needed a proect that could be sustained locally and intentionally used a simple design. The full potential of this design has not even been utilized and people are saying we need to change the design and redesign a larger platform. What a fallacy of thought!!!! Can we not work with what we already have rather than dream of an illusive platform which would have had complications associated with it. I dont make comparisons generally, but look at the development cycle of all the platforms developed recently. How come we have had a platform flying after 4 yrs of its inception. You dont see the blessings that it has brought you yet choose to go for that for which you have neither the resources, nor the expertise, nor the time, as you need fighters now. In this regard what new advantage does J10 bering to us?
For instance look at solutions:
Lack of range-------- IFR????? CFT in future
Armament carrying capability---- progressively increasing weight carrying capability and DERs
Range-------- Ability to turn atround quickly allowing multiple sorties. No other plane gives you that.
Ability to land and take off from smaller spaces in case of FOB damage/destruction.
Ability to carry multiple trpes of ammo.
You name it and the list goes on. And yyet people sit there and winge. People who cannot afford Suzuki wishing and salivating after a BMW or Mercedes!!! Why ?
This is why I sometimes get irate at what people write which is totally unachievable.
We had fools suggesting that we abandon the JFT project mid stream and join PLAAF with the J10 project. Did PLAAF ever invite you to join the project? Is there any indication of how much the project has cost to date and what your contribution might have been? Do you have any solution for the glaring deficiencies in the J10 engine issues? How reliable are the avionics for J10 considering that JFT is looking to procure western components for its Thunder? If someone can answer this themn a clearer picture can arise and one can continue the discussion from there.

Regards
A

 

[MastanKhan]

You are saying I have written long but if you get spacing out of my post, the following post of yours would be equally long.
Never said and not saying that JF-17 is useless regarding it's size. Recently they put AAMs on K-8P, that's not useless either. The thing is, it's enough ? Is that what Pakistan only needed ? No sorry with huge enemy next gate and position of Pakistan in the area, that's not what Pakistan only needed in modern days. J-10 could play role of JF-17 but vice versa is not possible.
US was spying on Israeli F-16s and Pakistan can never enjoy the position close to US as Israel does. So where lies the trust ? More over Pakistan's block 52s are flying under US observation. For the older ones, Pakistan doesn't need US permissions but what happened in 90s ? Why not same could happen in future ? and in war that would be catastrophic. No matter what you say, Pakistan was and is not very pleasant customer of US. It was like pain in butt, you can't totally leave it, and you don't want to give it your good guns. Whether Pakistan Air Force likes it or not, the sides in the region's geo politics have been picked. And what kind of customer would be India for US, you will see in coming days.
I studied in German local system. There was no Bachelor, Master available for locals. That was changed gradually from 2008-2012 due to EU requirements. We used to study one long five years degree after completion of 13 years of schooling. I worked in industry but my goal remained to establish my own composite production facility. I am gaining capital for that by through other business. Hopefully next year I'll be able to establish weaving and molding units. That's what I am saying for PAF also. Now that they have JF-17 in stock and production, they can use it to get something bigger. But pilots are pilots. They can't be marketing and finance managers. That's why we have different professions in this world. In PAF Air Marshals are every thing.
One thing more, hard hitting than any thing else. You can't negate huge corruptions in Pakistan. No single institution is free from it. If you are business man you know more than other on this topic and if you have done some contracts with PAF, you know even something further. I don't want to say anything more on corruption.

Hi,

Very good post---. It should not be left to the air force pilots to select the types of aircraft for the defense of the country. It is a strategic decision better handled by outsiders.

The air force may only give its opinion---any bad decisions should result in termination---reduction in ranks---expulsion---confiscation of assets or outright executions---.

Executions of incompetent higher officers is a must---it keeps the standards high and keeps the moral up and keeps he general staff on its toes---.

 

[!eon]

Hi,

Very good post---. It should not be left to the air force pilots to select the types of aircraft for the defense of the country. It is a strategic decision better handled by outsiders.

The air force may only give its opinion---any bad decisions should result in termination---reduction in ranks---expulsion---confiscation of assets or outright executions---.

Executions of incompetent higher officers is a must---it keeps the standards high and keeps the moral up and keeps he general staff on its toes---.

Thanks

That's how it works all over the world with best air forces. There should be a wider panel for decision making. I don't know why few people are so aggressively defending this concept of some pilots sitting and making each and every decision regarding air force, and that too without any accountability. No body can point finger at their decisions.

As student, I used to work at US air base in Germany. I heard once some admiring comments about PAF pilots but in the end they remain skillful pilots. These skills don't give them experience in finance, engineering or any other field.

 

[muhammadali233]

@RAMPAGE

Hi,

Thank you for your mention. To put a true monkey wrench in the opponents planning---the Paf must go for a heavy strike aircraft---like a SU34----or a J16----and if not then the JH7B.

The F35---will not not perform to its fullest without a complimentary heavy strike aircraft and neither would the F22---.

Keeping that in mind---it is alright to assume that to use the J31 to its fullest----you will need a complimentary strike aircraft.

What will happen is---as the americans are saying that the stealth aircraft will go deeper into enemy territory without being detected and from their---it can target the weapons from the heavy strike aircraft thru data link and launch them as well.

So---the scenario maybe that the J31 is flying at night time over the arabian seas flies closer to the target on the coastline---and targets the Hatf 8 or CM400 AKG missile from the JH7B that is flying 275---300 miles away from the coastline---at the target and launches it as well---.

After the launch from 275 miles away---the JH7B turns around and is long gone and the J31 cans lip away as well.

Paf does not need to counter the opponent aircraft for aircraft---a 450 to 500 aircraft air force will do wonders---.

But the J31 in itself it will be a tough going---.

Because of the geographical area of pakistan and with in inception of long range ALCM's and other missiles and bombs---24---48 hours is the time period for paf to smash the coastline cities of maharashtra state on one side---and on the other side---fly over the high mountains and strike eastern areas of the opponent.

The true thought to be imagined is this---just imagine an air launched babur cruise missile with range extender--aflight of 4 JH7B's flying down over the arabian seas 400 miles then turning sharply towards the coastline and launching cruise missiles 250 miles away from the coast line and targeting areas 1000 km away----and after launch---turning away and are gone..

I would rather have 250 JF17---60--80 JH7B's and currently 80-90 F16's---+ another 75 mlu'd F16's.

It is because of the COWARDICE shown by the Paf in not procuring the right aircraft in the last 15 years---that india has smashed us into a pulp on the world forum---.

With the timely purchase of the right aircraft---india would not have nade military threats at us as it is doing now.

Remember Gen Musharraf---what he stated---' we also have plans to strike india '.

Pakistani military is in a position to move faster into the enemy area than the india army can deploy---.

The only weak link has been the air force---.

PAF said it yesterday and is saying it today,budget,it gets a small share from 9billion$,in that operating such a fleet is remarkable,we cannot afford newer aircraft and will not in a coming decade or so.Your vision is commendable but what you are saying about the chief selector is not right,what they are doing is what no other air force has been able to do,marines have 4 times the budget of Pak military but do you think they stand a chance against us?
PAF operates 450+ Fighters in that shit of a budget and is making aircraft for itself too is something not less than a miracle.

 

[zebra7]

Executions of incompetent higher officers is a must---it keeps the standards high and keeps the moral up and keeps he general staff on its toes---.

Do you want to make Pakistan another North Korea.

 

[weqi]

@MastanKhan

Let present another idea to you. I disagree with you on many things but I've always supported your stance against the notion that is PAF being a defensive airforce.

As Joe sahab has said that we certainly cannot hope to match India fighter for fighter and tank for tank (and we certainly don't have to) but the there are indeed certain opportunities that present themselves which should be taken full advantage of.

PAF cannot hope to inflict major losses on the IAF once it is in the air. Previous engagements prove that the majority of enemy aircrafts destroyed were on the ground in air-raids on IAF airfields. Now luck has provided Pakistan with China as replacement for US and FC-31 as 21st century alternative to F-104/Sabre.

F-35's kill ratio of 8:0 against F-15E means that these 5th gen fighters are certainly a bang for the buck as long as they're facing previous generation fighters and excellent for bombing missions with stand-off munitions. It would be a masterstroke if Pakistan can operationalize a squadron of FC-31 BLK 2 before the Indians acquire a 5th gen fighter and manage to keep it a secret.

Just imagine for a moment, a formation of 3 x FC-31s carrying Chinese/Pakistani substitute for 8 x brimstones (60 KM range) or the same number of GBU-53s (105 KM range) plus 2 x PL-15s inside its weapons bay. The 3 of them would be able to fire 24 ASMs at 24 different hangers/aircrafts. And they will certainly return back unharmed and probably without facing any opposition from IAF in the air.

That's just a formation of 3 aircrafts. 18 such aircrafts would be able to mount a raid on 6 different locations simultaneously. Imagine the impact of just one such operation on the outcome of a war. the All that achieved with an investment of $2 billion.

And then there are they scaled down ALCMs, decoys and anti radiation missiles. The timely acquisitions of such weapons will make all the difference in the outcome of a war.

NICE

 

[araz]

You are saying I have written long but if you get spacing out of my post, the following post of yours would be equally long.
Never said and not saying that JF-17 is useless regarding it's size. Recently they put AAMs on K-8P, that's not useless either. The thing is, it's enough ? Is that what Pakistan only needed ? No sorry with huge enemy next gate and position of Pakistan in the area, that's not what Pakistan only needed in modern days. J-10 could play role of JF-17 but vice versa is not possible.
US was spying on Israeli F-16s and Pakistan can never enjoy the position close to US as Israel does. So where lies the trust ? More over Pakistan's block 52s are flying under US observation. For the older ones, Pakistan doesn't need US permissions but what happened in 90s ? Why not same could happen in future ? and in war that would be catastrophic. No matter what you say, Pakistan was and is not very pleasant customer of US. It was like pain in butt, you can't totally leave it, and you don't want to give it your good guns. Whether Pakistan Air Force likes it or not, the sides in the region's geo politics have been picked. And what kind of customer would be India for US, you will see in coming days.
I studied in German local system. There was no Bachelor, Master available for locals. That was changed gradually from 2008-2012 due to EU requirements. We used to study one long five years degree after completion of 13 years of schooling. I worked in industry but my goal remained to establish my own composite production facility. I am gaining capital for that by through other business. Hopefully next year I'll be able to establish weaving and molding units. That's what I am saying for PAF also. Now that they have JF-17 in stock and production, they can use it to get something bigger. But pilots are pilots. They can't be marketing and finance managers. That's why we have different professions in this world. In PAF Air Marshals are every thing.
One thing more, hard hitting than any thing else. You can't negate huge corruptions in Pakistan. No single institution is free from it. If you are business man you know more than other on this topic and if you have done some contracts with PAF, you know even something further. I don't want to say anything more on corruption.

Thank you for your response. I have quoted to you the objections raised and the answers in the pipeline/already implemented. I know very well about the F16s and restrictions imposed on them. Needless to say as per international law no one will supply arms to a region of conflict. However with F16s there will always be alternatives available. Plus we now have a good reserve of parts. Those restrictions will never apply to the Indo Pak war theatre for reasons which I have already explained multiple times.
I personally think that JFT is just the right size for PAF, not smaller,not larger. However opinions will always remain opinions and need to be respected.
A