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J-10 might not needed as they don't add anything to PAF's capability

Sorry, by Bad, I was referring to your some of the outrageous post, which I am reading for couple of days, and sorry but I saved them all specially your question on some other threads. Pls forgive my ignorance to tag you here. I will edit my post.

Thanks for the tag. Was meant as a light hearted joke aimed @Joe Shearer. Tag him, follow him, stalk him. Pester him with Qs, but when tells you to read, READ!

You will learn faster than a sponge soaks water. He is a treasure trove of knowledge.

Now back to you mister what outrageous posts???
 
Here is my take on this thread, and several times I mentioned this on PDF.

1. Decission by PAF to go for the JF-17 was good, and probably the best option instead of J-10.

2. However, I agree with few members in this thread, that more heavier, bigger, and superior plane would be needed for the PAF.

3. If I have to suggest, the PAF then the best plane for them is MIG-35 not J-10, reasons
  • MIG-35 have twin engine, which shares comonality with the JF-17.
  • Superior Airframe, that will provide the Air-Superiority power to PAF, with some ground attack Capability.
  • AESA Radar available from Zhuk with 1064 T/R module rp-35.
  • Full digital cockpit, FBW, FADEEC, Superior than IAF MIG-29UPG on capability, range and survivability.
  • Could face IAF MIG-29 UPG, Mirrage 2000 UPG, and Su-30MKI.
  • PAF could get the Russian Weaponary aka Anti-shipping, BVRAAM, WVRAAM, A2G Cruise Missiles.
  • PAF could tailor modify the MIG-35, with the Western Avionics or Chinese as per their requirement.
  • India could not put pressure on Russia, as Russia had hardtime getting the customer, and India have rejected the same, when offered by Russia to India.
  • Pakistan could set up local MRO, manufacturing unit for the Engines both for JF-17 and MIG-35.
The need for a twin engined platform has arisen and has been a topic of discussion for many a years. Back in early 2000s i had a friend from PAF saying we need to go for a twin engined platofrm for longer loitering time and for naval use.
There are 2 problems with it:
A. The ever present excuse of lack of funds.
B. The relevant price of the platforms and maintenance issues. PAF has made inroads into the Russian aviation market but i think trust deficit is enough for Russians not wanting to sell and PAF not wanting to buy. An intermedioate route would be a tacit approval of the sale of a Chinese J series platform. However, to the best of my knowledge there is no provision for procurement of such a platform from any provider and no funds have been allocated. PAF seems set to sit and wait for J31 with some indigenizationdepending on the developments in the Chinese avionics ,which to me is the right step. The mig 35 idea is a logical one but Somehow I dont see it happening
A
 
Sir the problem will be start than LM F16 assembly will be start the production of latest Blocks of F16V in india then our older sanction pron F16 will be neutralized against Indian F16v.
Good point,Btw I am nor a sir look at my DP:p:
 
The need for a twin engined platform has arisen and has been a topic of discussion for many a years. Back in early 2000s i had a friend from PAF saying we need to go for a twin engined platofrm for longer loitering time and for naval use.
There are 2 problems with it:
A. The ever present excuse of lack of funds.
B. The relevant price of the platforms and maintenance issues. PAF has made inroads into the Russian aviation market but i think trust deficit is enough for Russians not wanting to sell and PAF not wanting to buy. An intermedioate route would be a tacit approval of the sale of a Chinese J series platform. However, to the best of my knowledge there is no provision for procurement of such a platform from any provider and no funds have been allocated. PAF seems set to sit and wait for J31 with some indigenizationdepending on the developments in the Chinese avionics ,which to me is the right step. The mig 35 idea is a logical one but Somehow I dont see it happening
A
You are right but i do not know for J series SU or Mig, only and only ????????????.
 
:yay:OoH sorry.
What is the meaning of your DP identity Mugwop i think its belong to Africa.
DP = Display picture, Your DP is of a eagle with Pakistani flag on it, Mines is of me in my batman shirt.
Mugwop is my nickname and I am not from africa :p:
 
DP = Display picture, Your DP is of a eagle with Pakistani flag on it, Mines is of me in my batman shirt.
Mugwop is my nickname and I am not from africa :p:
oh now I saw its your real picture beautiful .... shirt.
 
Hundred per cent right.

As Akbar said somewhere, Allah was against Pakistan. (At least on these two occasions.)

1. That is true. Believe it or not, India had a newly raised brigade, with a brigade headquarters but no troops, and only a hotch-potch two or three battalions stood between General Malik and a breakthrough. And you know the unbelievable development: Musa Khan descending from the Heavens in a chopper, putting Yahya in charge and whisking away a completely dumbfounded Malik. His letter to his brother in later years, before his death in Turkey, makes melancholy reading.

That gave Lt. Gen. Harbaksh Singh the few days that he needed, and he managed to plug the gap.

Incidentally, the Brigadier who did the Rann of Kutch operations was a Corps Commander in 71, and he attacked at the same spot and broke through! And - wait for this - some squaddie saw his chopper passing, fired at it, and brought it down, and Eftekhar died of burn injuries after having won a victory which nobody exploited!

If I was writing this as a fictional account, I would have been howled down.

2. I can't help wondering at this repeated again and again: tactical brilliance and strategic blindness.

3. Here you are being unfair to everybody else in Pakistan. This is what Bhutto had been aiming for from the outset, from his adventurous days as Ayub Khan's irresistibly charming and unstoppable (and lying) Foreign Minister. He wanted power, and he broke the Pakistan Army in his bid for power. He weakened it in 65, and he shattered it in 71 (do you recall that he replaced Gul Hassan Khan as C-in-C as the last step). Then he made his fatal error, of rebuilding it. Or perhaps he thought he was dooming it by appointing Zia and never thought of what might happen.

Sorry for the diversion.

Back to JF17 vs. J10. My take is: somewhere, sometime, you need to start design from the ground up, but using sub-assemblies, not components. There isn't enough of a supply chain to do it from components. Having learnt to manufacture with components and raw materials will only help that higher level effort.

Second, I've said this before, about the PN, and I'll say it again, you need to have deterrent power - like Singapore, be a shrimp with teeth. Only in your case, you are far higher in the pecking order. A major investment in missiles, not MBTs; in attack helicopters, not in infantry regiments; in SAMs, network-centric resources and light planes with BVR, not glittering objects of desire.

Just my take. And there's always the chance that I've been paid to say this!! :P

Hi,

Joe---it was the Pakistani who was against pakistan and not Allah---. Allah gave all the opportunity to pakistan to do the coupe de grace---the pakistanis in return slashed their own throats rather than the enemy's.

Allah gave every opportunity that The Lord could provide---other than rolling over a mountain over the indian army---and the Pakistani military generals failed at every step to take advantage of the situation.

And that answered my question that I had---how could it happen---that Sirajuddaullah's army is confronting the english army---Mir Jaffar who is incharge of the cannons and gun powder---leaves the gun powder barrels uncovered and the powder is getting wet in the rain---and no son of the soil has the courage to put Mir Jaffar to the sword.

I got my answer when the truth about the 65 war came out---and in a similar manner for decades I could not comprehend how the muslim emperor failed to recognize who and what Ghengis Khan was and what he would do---till I saw first hand what muslims did after 9/11.
 
Hi,

Joe---it was the Pakistani who was against pakistan and not Allah---. Allah gave all the opportunity to pakistan to do the coupe de grace---the pakistanis in return slashed their own throats rather than the enemy's.

Allah gave every opportunity that The Lord could provide---other than rolling over a mountain over the indian army---and the Pakistani military generals failed at every step to take advantage of the situation.

And that answered my question that I had---how could it happen---that Sirajuddaullah's army is confronting the english army---Mir Jaffar who is incharge of the cannons and gun powder---leaves the gun powder barrels uncovered and the powder is getting wet in the rain---and no son of the soil has the courage to put Mir Jaffar to the sword.

I got my answer when the truth about the 65 war came out---and in a similar manner for decades I could not comprehend how the muslim emperor failed to recognize who and what Ghengis Khan was and what he would do---till I saw first hand what muslims did after 9/11.

I hasten to add that Akbar is a good Muslim, but he is also a good Indian, and has never spared an opportunity for a bon mot about Pakistan. As you say, when I look at the events of each war, each confrontation, I am struck at how, every time, the Pakistani side had everything going for it but snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

Your reminder about Mir Jaafar (whom you saw at closer quarters in the person of his descendant, Iskandar Mirza) was timely; as it happens, he was seen to be a pillar of the Murshidabad court, and I don't think anybody even dared to think of treachery. Meanwhile the cavalry under Mir Madan killed itself in charge after fruitless charge against the handful of sepoys and British troops facing them with the confidence of a battle won the previous evening.

The last paragraph makes sad reading. To return to Akbar, "Those whom the Gods wish to destroy, they first make mad."
 
Mention ''super doper'' features of J10.............
Name its AESA, state the capabilities of its integrated IRST.

Don't do ''ain bain shain''........ get to straight words. Stories which you are telling are already well known.
I want specific details from you, so go ahead.

My man,

There is a limit to being thoughtless---and you have topped it all.

I am going to post a quote from another defense forum---and if you have any common sense or an iota of understanding left in you---you will change your thinking---


"
Julio Ramos said:
Attack helicopters are more a tactical weapon than a scenario one. That means that they are not as useful as planes as a propaganda and, first of all, they lack the range to appear where they aren`t excpected .
It makes sense to hide weapons that could be useful in a scenario as the South China Sea conflict because they can be a bitter surprise to foreign nations ".


" Kwaigonegin replies

I agree with that notion .. things like tanks, helos etc are primarily tactical .. planes, bombers etc are both tactical and strategic therefore usually more secretive ".


China has basically put a lid on any leakage regarding its fighter aircraft---for all of them---there will be no news about which aircraft has what---unless the chinese want the news to be released.

@Tipu7 ----if you did not have the ability to understand that simple logic about the chinese keeping their product under the wrap---then your information is not worth posting material regarding the chinese equipment.

The americans don't care---they show off to the world what they have----match us if you can.

The chinese have already shown off too much---some of it they could not hide---like the aircraft---but the sub systems they can hide---their EW suites they can hide---.

What if the EW suite in the J20 is a true stolen copy of the one in the F22 or the one in the J10 a copy of one in the BLK60---.

So---for them---why to show it---why to jeopardize the life of someone who leaked the technical information.

By hiding the sub systems---they maybe saving the life of an accomplice---.

Americans are masters at deciphering the opponents equipment by the size and shape of the equipment from the technology available to the opponent.

Are the chinese trying to hide what they have achieved so far---it won't be a surprise.

My man---there is more to what meets the eye. Trust me on this----neither do you have the ability nor the resource to understand that and nor your buddy araz---who does not have an original of thought of his own and waves a print out and says---look this paper says this----then that is what it is.

Now---don't get me wrong---you can begin to understand---but you have to allow yourself to shatter the idols that you have created and those that you worship in your mind---. You have to break your CRUTCH.

Life is about learning---so begin to learn---.
 
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Mastan you make sense it is neither funds nor maintenance issue if u have will u can break mountains if you are professional you are energized by having more challenging job than justification of maintenance havoc
 
The last paragraph makes sad reading. To return to Akbar, "Those whom the Gods wish to destroy, they first make mad."

Joe,

I seek forgiveness from Allah for saying this---we do have a habbit of blaming others and Allah for our shortcoming---indecisions---bad planning---mistakes and errors---why---because most of us never accept that we have been in error in our doings.

Just take the most recent example---9/11---what made the pakistanis FOCUS more on who done it rather than how to save our skins and the skins of the afghans.

Or the F16 fiasco here---educated people like araz---they have no comprehension how to secure systems and weapons for war.

They would never ever allow similar decisions for the welfare of their own home and family that they would allow for the nation.

But then when things don't go our way---we can always blame it on Alllah ( may Allah forgive me for saying this ).

Mastan you make sense it is neither funds nor maintenance issue if u have will u can break mountains if you are professional you are energized by having more challenging job than justification of maintenance havoc

Hi,

Paf has done it before---from 200 hours life of the F7's engine---they took it to 500 hours I believe or something similar.

What i am saying over is something else has been brewing in the air force for a long time now. Because there was no reason in this world of ours where a starving man would refuse food and water when it became available for no reason by saying---I want two ROTIS and two glasses of water---I am not going to eat and drink if you give me just One Roti and one glass of water
 
Mastan you make sense it is neither funds nor maintenance issue if u have will u can break mountains if you are professional you are energized by having more challenging job than justification of maintenance havoc

funny, Pakistan one of the world poorest country with poorest education, health state and world highest maternal mortality rate, but somehow funds is not issue for our fans!!

where as countries with much higher GDP per capita have funds issue, so much that they cannot maintain even a single jet fighter


sooner or later people need to understand ground realities..

ultimately pak army needs to be more mechanized and modernized with down sizing of high ranking journals and force from nearly a 7 lac to 4 lac.
 
funny, Pakistan one of the world poorest country with poorest education, health state and world highest maternal mortality rate, but somehow funds is not issue for our fans!!

where as countries with much higher GDP per capita have funds issue, so much that they cannot maintain even a single jet fighter


sooner or later people need to understand ground realities..

ultimately pak army needs to be more mechanized and modernized with down sizing of high ranking journals and force from nearly a 7 lac to 4 lac.

@MastanKhan
@jbgt90

I would like to point out that this post makes an interesting observation.

If Pakistan tries to match India fighter for fighter, tank for tank, the future is bleak. On the other hand, as a smaller nation facing a larger, but somewhat inert opponent, Pakistan can take chances, experiment with her military organisation, her methods of waging war, her formations and their arming, and create a great deal of fear, uncertainty and doubt in Indian minds.
 
If Pakistan tries to match India fighter for fighter, tank for tank, the future is bleak. On the other hand, as a smaller nation facing a larger, but somewhat inert opponent, Pakistan can take chances, experiment with her military organisation, her methods of waging war, her formations and their arming, and create a great deal of fear, uncertainty and doubt in Indian minds
pakistan is certainly not matching bullet by bullet but credible detterence
you see we are not starting new jets acquisition
not buying aircraft carriers
not going for nuke subs
neither we can but also besides India we have no use of them
Pakistan has always and will always find cost effective ways
you can compare our military budgets we dont come anything close to India
even if we had much many, we had no use of Aircraft carriers

something else has been brewing in the air force for a long time now
??????????????
 
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