Israeli military most powerful in Middle East, says study

[1971+]

That's the problem with you guys... you know nothing about the Turkish defense industry yet you claim we produce nothing....

Buddy your drone as well tank are still not operational , that's why I didn't know their names.On the other hand Israel has been flying it's drones and operating their own tanks from many years now.

Anyway , I am ready to own up when I am wrong .

 

[damm1t]

Im not an expert on the issue but you are seriously underestimating the role of NATO in the establishment of modern Turkish army, all the weapon systems we have has its root in NATO, not to mention training and structure.

Nope mate I really don't, I am one of those who understand the importance being in the organisation, it's crucial and lawmakers did good by joining the club... We gained a lot from Nato.. But my perspective is based on theory " Where would be at if NATO didn't exist or without Nato? "...
Soviet threat would have made us a communist country or we would have establish or join a alliance with Middle-Easterners against them... Or limited membership to another Western organisation.. Now leave them all aside, we would suffer but in the end of the day probably we would be alive... Maybe weaker maybe somehow stronger, it's open to debate... The Marshall Plan and joining club brings some obligations in return protection, using western-made weapon makes a loyal buyer, being a normal member makes your army a tool for greater powers' ambitions... When you wake up in the morning you realise that you are kind of military slave without independent military choices and industry... Cyprus operation and weapon embargo helped us to realise these facts and we started to build our industry... No way to know where we would be at without Nato as I said it's open to debate... But I am not underestimating nor against Nato..

 

[JonAsad]

OK

for your love of Israel you missed to see the sarcasm-

 

[Mav3rick]

Because you replied to a post that dealt with the air force. Yes, I am 100% sure. Unless you can proof otherwise. The burden of the proof is on you. Who mentioned anything about Israel here? Israel won't attack KSA nor vice versa. Nor have I even compared the IAF with any other regional air force.

Well let me say that I hope and pray that KSA never has to defend herself against any adversary. The toll that Pakistan will eventually end up paying may be more then we can afford.

OK discuss KSA AF and Irael AF.

Why to bring non-existent Pakistani pilots in that debate.

Please do not cr@p the thread by mentioning armies other than the countries listed in the OP.

Dude WTF?????

 

[xenon54 out]

Nope mate I really don't, I am one of those who understand the importance being in the organisation, it's crucial and lawmakers did good by joining the club... We gained a lot from Nato.. But my perspective is based on theory " Where would be at if NATO didn't exist or without Nato? "...
Soviet threat would have made us a communist country or we would have establish or join a alliance with Middle-Easterners against them... Or limited membership to another Western organisation.. Now leave them all aside, we would suffer but in the end of the day probably we would be alive... Maybe weaker maybe somehow stronger, it's open to debate... The Marshall Plan and joining club brings some obligations in return protection, using western-made weapon makes a loyal buyer, being a normal member makes your army a tool for greater powers' ambitions... When you wake up in the morning you realise that you are kind of military slave without independent military choices and industry... Cyprus operation and weapon embargo helped us to realise these facts and we started to build our industry... No way to know where we would be at without Nato as I said it's open to debate... But I am not underestimating nor against Nato..

Bro being member in NATO doesnt make us less independent, this is just a myth, the only thing that comes to my mind is the HQ-9 deal but its only because the company that produces them is in a embargo list, otherwise we allready got missile system from China throught ToT (Kasirga).
But on the other hand being member gave us many opportunitys such as ToT on many indigenous systems which we wouldnt get as a non NATO country (Atak, F-35 participation etc.) and a well organized Army.

 

[ResurgentIran]

Bro being member in NATO doesnt make us less independent, this is just a myth, the only thing that comes to my mind is the HQ-9 deal but its only because the company that produces them is in a embargo list, otherwise we allready got missile system from China throught ToT (Kasirga).
But on the other hand being member gave us many opportunitys such as ToT on many indigenous systems which we wouldnt get as a non NATO country (Atak, F-35 participation etc.) and a well organized Army.

But the trade-off is loss of sovereignty, the extent of which can be subject to debate.

 

[xenon54 out]

But the trade-off is loss of sovereignty, the extent of which can be subject to debate.

Sovereignty depends on how your goverment is acting not in which alliance you are, Iran isnt in any alliance but still less sovereign than Turkey for exsample.

 

[ResurgentIran]

Sovereignty depends on how your goverment is acting not in which alliance you are, Iran isnt in any alliance but still less sovereign than Turkey for exsample.

That didnt make much sense.

 

[xenon54 out]

That didnt make much sense.

Why do you think so?

 

[tesla]

nato membership is a joke and some confused turk members defends nato . in ataturk era we were selling to planes to belgium and we produced every ammo after nato firstly they fucked our military industry and used us 40 years against soviets for nothing thanks to 1974-80 american embargo due to cyprus invasion today turkey gained every industry infrastructure in that times finally nato just offered us off -set programs .off set programs are not TOT

 

[ResurgentIran]

Why do you think so?

Sovereignty is not about how wonderful a government is or how nice it behaves. Look at the People's Republic of China during Mao.
That man mass murdered 60 million Chinese but the PRC was still more sovereign than the system, which exist in Taiwan, would have been had it overtaken China.
The Viet Congs were infinitely more sovereign than the South Viatnamese, and the Vietcong did some nasty shit.

I never said Turkey was not sovereign or that Turkey is slave. Turkey itself chose to be part of NATO, which had hade huge benefits. But there is a trade-off (sovereignty). You can not buy certain products from China. The US forbade you.
Turkey does not always have to do what Uncle Sam says, but it has to weigh their demands way more heavily.

 

[Hakan]

@1971+

Here are the latest pictures of Altay Tank:

Its expected to look like this by the time the program is 100% finished:

----------------------------

My opinion about all of these top 10 lists is that they are b.s. I think countries should be ranked based on how they can react to the threats that they face. For example brazil has a weak military when compared to other countries. Is it fair to say brazil is a weak country? No. Because they have no need for a massive airforce, thousands of tanks, etc..

So in general I dont take these top 10's that serious especially when they dont take things like suppliers, industrial production etc. into account.

 

[ResurgentIran]

@1971+

Here are the latest pictures of Altay Tank:

View attachment 138727

View attachment 138728

View attachment 138730


View attachment 138729

Its expected to look like this by the time the program is 100% finished:

----------------------------

My opinion about all of these top 10 lists is that they are b.s. I think countries should be ranked based on how they can react to the threats that they face. For example brazil has a weak military when compared to other countries. Is it fair to say brazil is a weak country? No. Because they have no need for a massive airforce, thousands of tanks, etc..

So in general I dont take these top 10's that serious especially when they dont take things like suppliers, industrial production etc. into account.

Are you Kaan?

 

[xenon54 out]

Sovereignty is not about how wonderful a government is or how nice it behaves. Look at the People's Republic of China during Mao.
That man mass murdered 60 million Chinese but the PRC was still more sovereign than the system, which exist in Taiwan, would have been had it overtaken China.
The Viet Congs were infinitely more sovereign than the South Viatnamese, and the Vietcong did some nasty shit.

I never said Turkey was not sovereign or that Turkey is slave. Turkey itself chose to be part of NATO, which had hade huge benefits. But there is a trade-off (sovereignty). You can not buy certain products from China. The US forbade you.
Turkey does not always have to do what Uncle Sam says, but it has to weigh their demands way more heavily.

Ofcourse we are talking about countrys that can be sanctioned and not superpowers.
And US didnt forbid anything, they cant but they can ''express concern'' about some products from sanctioned manufacturers.

 

[ResurgentIran]

Ofcourse we are talking about countrys that can be sanctioned and not superpowers.
And US didnt forbid anything, they cant but they can ''express concern'' about some products from sanctioned manufacturers.

Sanctions usually are imposed on countries who are not as willing to toe the superpower line.
Sanctions argument work in my favor.