I don't think Pakistanis are well-equipped to make such judgments.
How many UN resolutions has Pakistan violated? And how many US vetoes have saved us from international condemnation. Israel is the world record holder in both categories. Your bias is so damn obvious, I am not sure why I am continuing this conversation with you, save for others to read the exchange and come to their conclusions. Let it be recorded, Solomon2, that today you supported Israeli murderers killing peace activists in cold blood. And yet you have the gall to accuse us of supporting Palestinians on account of religion. You are the one who is so blinded by your common faith with the Israeli murderers that you cannot see beyond it. You obfuscate and attempt to divert attention by talking of purchase vs. theft, and bringing in the Ottomans in to the discussion as "Founders" of Israel when you know darn well I was referring to your (oops! You are an American, right. Not an Israeli?) first Prime Minister, the bomber terrorist Ben Gurion.
That might be true for Pakistan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and a few other countries, but is it really true for Israel? American aid was not a major factor until after the Six-Day War. In 1973 when Syria and Egypt attacked Israel on the holiest day of the Jewish year and Israel responded by crossing the Suez Canal into Africa and closing to artillery range of Damascus, America bribed Israel to refrain from destroying its enemies by promising to maintain Israel as the strongest military power in the region.
You have former US mil personnel on this forum who will tell you otherwise. Today I was told the news of this brazen Israeli attack by none other than a former Col. of the USAF... that is how I found out about the news. Let me tell you that his views on Israel are not at all in line with yours. As are those of numerous servicemen who wear "USS Liberty - Never Forget" T-shirts publicly.
Israel had been given a good and proper hiding in the Yom Kippur war and it was only the Nukes that America directly and indirectly gave to Israel - the famed "Samson option" - along with the rapid-fire replacement of shot down A4s and numerous other kinds of American mil support including sharing SR-71 and U2 footage that allowed Israel to not fall flat on its face. The surveillance footage given to the Israelis by the US is what even made it possible for Sharon to attack the SA-2 sites, while US resupply bought Israel more time. You are the one who needs an education on this topic.
You aren't talking about the flotilla any more.
Even better. I am talking about the ultimate outcome of the sorry trajectory Israel has put itself on, in which this terrorism incident against the flotilla is just one point on the chart.
Herzl was a journalist. Sir Herbert Samuel was a British cabinet minister. Abdul Hamid II and Mehmed VI were Ottoman Caliphs. The League of Nations was an assembly of the victors of WWI, and in 1947 the United Nations was an assembly of the victors of WWII, mostly democrats but some dictators and communists as well. All of these helped "found" Israel - indeed, I doubt Israel would exist without them. Do you consider all these people and entities "terrorists by any definition"?
I don't know about considering all these people terrorists, perhaps they were errorists. However, I do consider you to be pretty desparate to shift focus. I'll make it clear for you. I am talking about that *** rank terrorist Ben Gurion.
By "snatch" do you include "purchase"? The issue is more complicated than that. If you want all "snatched" lands returned to the victimized peoples, do you support returning lands taken from the Jews as well? I don't hear anybody offering to give the Jews Medina or a quarter of Baghdad in exchange for Tel Aviv - and the Israelis wouldn't want it, either.
Please stop deluding yourself and wasting other people's time. Here is what Ben Gurion HIMSELF said about the occupation of Palestine. These are HIS words. Now refute them, or accept that you are a sorry propagandist and apologist for terror.
In 1956, Ben-Gurion stated: "
Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country ... There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it is simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army."
The Jews were promised a homeland in Palestine as part of the great de-Imperialization movement after WWI. Many nationalities, which
What the hell did Palestine have to do with WWI or WWII? The Jews claim God promised them Canaan. Well, there were people living in Cannan before the jews entered. So the jews and Zionists cannot lay the primal claim. Then they say it was given to us as a covenant. Ok. But they BROKE that covenant. They went around for 40 years in the desert, criticising manna from the heavens, worshipping the false god in the form of the golden calf, and when God finally brought them to Cannan, they said complained again that God hadn't magically evicted the inhabitants for them. It was only their repeated ungratefulness and violation of the covenant that caused Moses to refuse to lead them into the land. And then once they went in and won the land on the back of brave warriors and prophets like David, what did they do then? They formed two kingdoms and started fighting against each other. If they had an original covenant, they also violated it. If they were given the land, they also abused the privilege and were scattered across the earth. So laying a religously motivated claim also has no merit.
Finally, laying a claim on moral grounds is complete bull$hit. The Palestinians had nothing to do with the Nazi progroms, as Ben Gurion himself acknowledges in the quote above.
So there is no basis for this nonsensical solution of forcing an Israel down the throats of people who were already living on the land for hundreds, thousands of years. But now that there is an Israel, let's accept the reality for the sake of peace. However, this requires Israel to be humble and reasonable and to arrive at a solution which includes a two-state solution and an acknowledgement of the wrongs that have been committed against the Palestinians. However, what we have instead is a state hell bent on making everyone and their brother its enemy. And so it is. Keep killing innocent people on aid convoys and keep earning everyone's hate, until it all boils over and washes Israel away.
However, the Jews kicked out by most of the Arab countries, where were they supposed to go? When the world is prepared to discuss not just how small Israel should be but how big Israel should be, then I think there will be a greater chance for peace.
Very interesting. Did the Zionists start assaulting Palestinians first, or the did the Arab states kick out the jews first? Please get your facts straight. I would also advise you to read, "Were they good for the jews", authored by a co-religionist of yours that clearly illustrates that the jews have overwhelmingly enjoyed better treatment in muslim lands throughout history as compared to christian lands. And suddenly you say Arab states kicked out jews... there must have been a reason for this sudden reversal, no? That reason was Zionist terror.
Many of these still support the existence of Israel. This is an exercise in freedom of debate that Pakistanis, it seems, do not care to experience.
Aw pipe down on this freedom of debate crap now. You made a big drama here about the FB ban and all this other nonsense about "ooo I'm so concerned Pakistanis don't debate things freely". Stuff it. We have been here debating things freely all the while you were enjoying your vacation from PDF, and we were also pretty active on FB which was banned in name and clearly not in spirit. I said at the time that this was only going to be a temporary measure to calm people down, not stifle debate, and that's exactly what it was. This is how free the debate in Israel is:
For the record, this journalist was treated better in Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Egypt, Afghanistan and FATA than he was in Israel. Your proselytizing and chastising on freedom of debate is complete bull$hit because I don't know of a freer press today than the press in Pakistan. We abuse every leader in power daily. We publish 50 scandals and accusations that would be libel in other countries, against the sitting President, on a daily basis. I will get arrested in the US for things that I can say in Pakistan... so just put a lid on the holier than thou freedom of press nonsense.
I urge you to study world history more fully to understand how laughable your words are. That an intelligent person like you stands by them without entertaining the possibility of error - is there a better indication of how demented Pakistan has become?
If Pakistan has become demented for pointing out the truth which you can't bear, clearly, then I wish madness upon all of humanity. You, Solomon2, are a propaganda mouthpiece. I mean really. You are completely unaccepting of any cricisim of Israel. Most of us here will look at things even about our own country from various angles and you'll find us debating the good and the bad. There is a wide spectrum of opinion here. Yet, you, who claim to be an American, merely on account of your faith, cannot find a single fault with Israel. That is what is demented. Nay, tragic and bull$hitesque in everyway. Get off your pulpit, you have been fired as a second rate evangelist on account of your lack of imagination and inability to take off the blue blinders.
Are you interested in justice or enforcing your own sense of righteousness?
Justice is good enough for me. Netanyahu would be tried as a war criminal, as would Sharon, and they would face life in prison. That would be fine by me.
Wow, you've really bought "the narrative", as Arabs describe it, hook, line, and sinker.
Yes, it is mere "narrative". Tell me something. How many Zionists were on Palestinian land in 1880? How many Palestinians? How many Israelis have been killed - total - in all acts of violence involving the Arabs? How many Arabs and Palestinians have been killed? How many Israelis live in refugee camps on their own land? How many Palestinians do? One can go on and on merely focused on the FACTS and show that your nonsensical allegation as made above is not worth the few bytes it took to transmit it through the interweb. The Arabs and Palestinians have suffered in EVERY way, and the Zionists have benefitted in EVERY way, and all these things are acknowledged in resolutions by the UN and YET you call this an "Arab narrative". Shame.
How can blood feuds end? If one party wants peace and the other doesn't, is that sufficient?
If one party is idiotic enough not to realize that it is engaged in wrongful murder solely on the back of a powerful friend, and that the powerful friend cannot be around forever, then yes, perhaps the way this ends is that the wronged communities eventually crush the crazed murderer. Right before this is about to happen, I reckon the bully will want peace, but then it will too late. Like I said earlier, disregard international law today because you can, but remember that when these murders are avenged - perhaps 50, perhaps 100 years hence - international law may not figure in your favour at that time.
No, TL. This incident ranks as a depraved plot, one certainly not of Israel's making. (Israel didn't make the flotilla set sail, nor compel its passengers to attack the boarding party with clubs and knives.)
The blockade of Palestine is illegal in of itself. The UN has asked Israel to remove this blockage. The murderous Israeli soldiers had no right to board those ships. The entire effort on the part of Israel is illegal and has no standing by any measure of morality or international law. RT reports have now shown multiple sources that make clear that the boarding happened in international waters. This is a brazen act of piracy and murder. Israel is 100% responsible.
Who is more likely to have a better perception of such matters, you or I? It frightens you even to approach the line of thinking that what Israel does is usually right and just, doesn't it?
Nothing about Israel frightens me, let me tell you that. I actually feel a great deal of pity for many of the innocent Israelis that now find themselves in a deep, deep hole the Zionists have dug for them. No power on earth, ever in history, has remained dominant for ever. No small group of people has wronged another far larger group of people without paying the price eventually. Israel might have American aid and borrowed American equipment, but it does not have the power to change the laws of nature, or the trajectory of history. I know for damn sure that Israel as it exists today is going to be undone. If it happens in 50 years, perhaps I will get to see that day. But even if it happens afterward, I know as surely as the Sun will rise tomorrow, that this day will come. And in terms of human history, it will come sooner rather than later. Demographics eventually win.
Um, no you're not. East Pakistan broke away forty years ago. Rump Pakistan has been slowly fracturing since. The P.A.'s efforts of the past year may have reversed that, but as Nadeem Farooq Paracha put it, "Anything to do with Allah, or the prophet, and everyone keeps quiet. That's the problem with our country."
Are you on something? What the hell does 1971 have to do with the Prophet? I am quite sure that you are suffering from palpitations or some other form of temporary (hopefully) incoherence because you make no damn sense at all. Pakistan has been slowly fracturing? And you're concerned about Pakistan's views on the Prophet, but I don't see you cricitizing these sw1nes for persecuting Christians? There are hundreds more of these videos, made by Christian pilgrims visiting Israel. How many do you want to see? Or now, let me put it in your words, how many do you have the "courage" to see and condemn and then act to remedy?
Which territory has West Pakistan lost since 1947? Please don't confuse your dreams and hopes with reality. Let us, you and I, place a wager on whether or not Pakistan fractures. The challenge in placing such a bet virtually when neither you nor I know each other notwithstanding, I think the intellectual satisfaction alone would suffice for me at least.
You're not out of the woods yet. And I think re-considering Pakistan's views towards Israel, Jews,
Our views concerning jews are just fine, thank you. You saw even someone like Ahmedinijad extend a generous and warm welcome to jews in Iran during a recent conference held there. We are, hopefully even in your eyes, not Ahemedinijad. Our issue, as I said before, is with Israel. And we are not the only ones who have this issue. Essentially everyone in the world other than the USG has the same issue. And even within the US, opinion is sharply divided, and the consensus is that Zionist groups, through pressure tactics, use of money, bribes, threats and other insidious means, exercise a level of unnatural control on the US Government. Before you bring in the "Arab narrative" shtick here, please do yourself a favour and look up all the Christian, American, White Cacucasian journalists, writers and researchers who say this. There have been books written about this, for the love of God!
In my opinion, it is a similar legacy Pakistan must face and acknowledge if it is to move forward, rather than succumb to a barbaric and destructive mentality.
You know what, please seek counseling. If you are going to compare Germany - a country that perpetrated the holocaust - with Pakistan, then you are out in looney land. Your comparison is offensive and repulsive. Others have compared the Nazi holocaust perpetrated against the Jews with the Israeli holocaust against the Palestinians. But then again, to each his own.
