Islam and science: The road to renewal - ECONOMIST

[Sinnerman108]

......

......


Religion - becomes strong by solidifying old myths and traditions

Science - becomes strong by destroying and superseding old myths and traditions.


Religion and science are like oil and water.

They cannot mix and should not be mixed.


Thus Islam as a religion cannot be mixed with science (period).

Ghazali smiles when you posted that.

May I suggest trying the opposite approach; that of Ibn Rushd ?

 

[user1]

Earth is mentioned as the element of creation of man..More ridiculously,fire is mentioned as the element of creation of angels and djinns..And why water for living things..?Probably the faulty observation that life sprungs up from barren land after rain,which is poetically described as a miracle in quran.

Only Jinns - not angels - are made of smokeless fire not the kind that we see around. I don't remember what angels are made of.

But, there is a mentioning of two kind of verses in Quran at the beginning of chapter 3:

Muhkimat: or commandments which are clear cut and describe the moral code according to which we shape our lives.

Mutashabihat: or parables which are provided in a way that everybody would understand them in all ages until the reality is revealed. For example: paradise is described as a garden and then there is story of Adam, all of those are parables. In the same manner, the things which look ridiculous to you Djinns etc. will come to light someday.

My favourite is virgin birth of Isa (PBUH): According to to modern molecular biology, this is not only possible but has been demonstrated in many species (not man). I once had completely figured out the whole sequence of how it was possible; it involved parthenogenesis, lyonisation, epigenetics, sry gene and some genetic recombination.

Histroy tells us that his may not be the only virigin birth; mythology from around the world describes various 'Gods' who had a virgin birth and there is a community among the researchers which believe that every myth (even a superstition) no matter how absurd it looks may have a grain of truth in it.

Now back to your observation of creation of man from earth and water. You see Prophet (PBUH) was clever enough to drop fire as the constituent of animal/plant life. He could have conveniently included fire in the ingredients too, after all who was there to challenge him?

 

[Azazel]

This is just a fringe of Western researchers writing with religious conviction and vested interests to create doubts about Islam. A far larger number of Western researchers have concluded - by looking at the language and writing style of Quran - that it was written by a single person. The writing style persists throughout. If you google Arabic language, you will learn that it has at least 8 major regional varieties which differ in diction and writing style. Quran is written in the linguistic style of Arabian version, also the Arabic is same as spoken in seventh century Arabia not the 8th, 9th or 10th century Baghdad or Syria.

There are plenty of signs in Quran which tell about it's origins, whether it is the City of Makkah or the battlefield of Badar, or the tribe of Quresh or the Holy Sanctuary or the customs of that age.

It would be just too much of an anomaly that the advanced, civilised cultures of Mesopotamia or Byzantine Syria will forge a creation myth of their credo in the Arabian deserts.

If we look at history, it moves the other way, whenever a new wave of invaders dominates an area with which it is profoundly impressed it just assumes the identity of the advanced culture.
For example:

Alexander of Macedon when conquered Persia, he was so impressed with their civilisation that he tried to adopt their culture and made Persia as his new home.

Temujin when conquered Central Asian states, he was impressed with their civilisation so much that when he chose his title it was in Turkic language: Chengiz Khan

When Turks conquered Constantinopole they considered themselves the inheritors of Rome, consider the name of famous poet Jalal-ud-din Rumi (Roman).

Muslims of Baghdad at it's zenith considered themselves to be the intellectual heirs and continuation of Ionian legacy.

These people you have mentioned are not misconceived; they are mischevious! plain and simple.

Firstly I want to know who these western researchers are,I gave names you should also do the same.

 

[Redbull]

You can only ask questions when you know what you're talking ! How can someone without the slightest medical or scientific background ask questions of a nature that weren't even accepted as viable facts till much much later.

"What happens in the womb?" Not a very difficult question I assume?

Furthermore all of those works were in Ancient Greek which were later translated into Arabic during the Abbasid time not before that. And there is nothing to suggest that the Prophet (PBUH) either knew any language except his own or studied under the tutelage of someone who had the slightest medical or scientific knowledge to share with him these facts.

The evidence suggests otherwise, if we are to assume that we have his, that is Muhammed's Quran, which we don't.

Additionally Galen's own works were, as I understand, forged & reforged from his own days to well into the Renaissance with much that is attributed to him that he may or may not have authored; what is to suggest that the aforementioned 4 stages are his works or not seeing that, as I understand, no single authoritative collection of his works exists ?

It's possible, but what you are suggesting is a theory. I'll get back to you on this some other time though. Btw, modern embryologists who have studied this say it's wrong.

Firstly, there is no clot of Blod.
Secondly, the bones and flesh form simultaneouly, not one over the other.

Likewise the Kufic Koran that you mentioned, I understand, would have been amongst those same copies that Usman bin Affan (the 3rd Caliph of Islam) ordered to be burned with the original ones in the Qureshi dialect preserved. So if it fraught with some differences that Usman was justified in his actions as they were intended to be.

It said 8th century, but even so :"The manuscript is incomplete, only a third of the Quran surviving:[1] it begins in the middle of verse 7 of the second sura and ends at Surah 43:10. The manuscript has between eight and twelve lines to the page and, showing its antiquity, the text is devoid of vocalisation."

In addition to the Koran one cannot forget the Oral Tradition of transmitting the Koran from one generation of Hufaz to the other & there hasn't been, to the best of my knowledge, any discrepancy from one Oral Tradition to another whether it be amongst the Hufaz of Al-Andalus or those of Afghanistan.

The oral tradition is the worst way of transmitting knowledge, at one point or another, the "hufaz" would've had revert back to the their local copy of the Quran.Think about it though, if there were many 'incomplete' variants of the Quran, can we trust the believers to submit this to history?

Lastly the semen bit is just one of the many alleged miracles of the Koran & if they turn out to be true that it would be fantastic to assume that a person with no history of even the slightest formal education in the sciences would have the presence of mind to ask the right question from the right people when he didn't even venture out of Hejaz or Syria, as far as we know.

Answered already, this is not an Einstein question, I can't believe your seeing this basic verse of: blood:semen:limp: Flesh:bones as something miraculously awesome, it is a primitive verse and reflects the primitive understanding of the embryology of the time.

 

[user1]

Firstly I want to know who these western researchers are,I gave names you should also do the same.

Lets start with two very big names: W. Montgomery Watt & Karen Armstrong.

 

[Redbull]

This is not the oldest surviving copy. Just search for 'oldest surviving copy of Quran'.


Infact, most of the great religious texts have first been memorised by the disciples of a Prophet and written later; whether Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism or Christianity. Among the Muslims we have tens of thousands of living examples of Muslims who can memorise whole of Quran. The culture in 7th century Arabia would be more dependent on oral tradition than the written texts, not just because of a shortage of writers but also due to a scarcity of material to write on.

this from wikipedia:

The society during the time of the Prophet was predominantly oral and for this reason he would recite verses of the Qur'an to his Companions and instruct them to memorize it. Due to this, people question whether the Qur'an was ever written and collected during the time of the Prophet. While writing was not a common skill during the Prophet’s time, Mecca, being the commercial center, had a number of people who could write. It is believed, according to some scholars that up to 48 scribes, including Zayd ibn Thabit and Ubayy ibn Ka’b had recorded verses of the Qur'an. This provides evidence that the Qur'an most likely existed in written form during the life of the Prophet even if it was not compiled into one text.

Sorry, but we have to look at the evidence and that is the earliest version we have. Also, I don't trust that it could be handed down perfect orally.

 

[Redbull]

I would also like to remind you that galons theory is mostly BS in the light of modern researches and findings in emroyology.

Exactly........It is irrelevent who copied who.

Both(the quran and Galen) said Flesh grows over the bones and both are wrong.

Both have a stage called a "blood clot", this is a common misconception due to appearance of abortions that the fetus transformed into a blood clot, and yes, was observable to a layman in human and animals.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Ghazali smiles when you posted that.

May I suggest trying the opposite approach; that of Ibn Rushd ?

Hello my good friend. Hello.

For some reason you are too brief in this post.

Please clarify what I said and contrast it with Ghazali's stance or Ibn Rushd's.

What the poet said

--- Saaf chuptay bhi nahi
--- Saamnay aatay bhi nahi


Hazoor-e-wala?


peace

 

[Azazel]

Lets start with two very big names: W. Montgomery Watt & Karen Armstrong.

Indeed William Montgomery Watt is a truly a big name in this field,So does Karen Armstrong .But do you know that he rejects the infallibility of both the Bible and the Qur’ān, but regards each as divinely inspired.And as you have claimed earlier,can you give me the source in which he claims Quran is written by a single person based on the nature of philology of the text.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Exactly........It is irrelevent who copied who.

Both(the quran and Galen) said Flesh grows over the bones and both are wrong.

Both have a stage called a "blood clot", this is a common misconception due to appearance of abortions that the fetus transformed into a blood clot, and yes, was observable to a layman in human and animals.

yaar Redbull,

you got sucked in by the Mullahtic debate. So sad to see.


There is no point in arguing about clots or unclots.


Ask these Islamist guys a simple question.

--- Is Quran a standard text book in biology, zoology, physics, chemistry, astronomy, mathematics or any branch of science.

-- If so which university?

--- If this university is in a Muslim country or a non-Muslim country.


Thank you.


and

peace to all,.,

 

[Armstrong]

"What happens in the womb?" Not a very difficult question I assume?

Asking whom ? There is nothing to suggest that he had any correspondence or acquaintance with a man of science ! Therefore thinking that somehow 1400 years ago a merchant with no formal or informal education whatsoever would find himself asking questions of a nature that seasoned academics were debating in Constantinople.

The evidence suggests otherwise, if we are to assume that we have his, that is Muhammed's Quran, which we don't.

I'm sorry I don't quite follow.

It's possible, but what you are suggesting is a theory. I'll get back to you on this some other time though. Btw, modern embryologists who have studied this say it's wrong.

Firstly, there is no clot of Blod.
Secondly, the bones and flesh form simultaneouly, not one over the other.

Oh its no theory, Galen himself had to rewrite some of his manuscripts because of forgeries & there really is no authoritative collection of work that can be attributed to him.

I wouldn't know that ! I never studied Biology; I think @Talon would be a better bet at explaining away this !

Either way I found a nice article on this maybe its right maybe its not but it does seem referenced reasonably well enough : Embryology in the Qur’an: Fetus acquires a skeleton « The Islam Papers

It said 8th century, but even so :"The manuscript is incomplete, only a third of the Quran surviving:[1] it begins in the middle of verse 7 of the second sura and ends at Surah 43:10. The manuscript has between eight and twelve lines to the page and, showing its antiquity, the text is devoid of vocalisation."

Actually the San'aa Manuscripts predates that by quite a few years & maybe written between 15 & a few dozen years after the Prophet (PBUH) 's death.

But what exactly does this establish ? That the Oldest surviving copy of the Koran belongs to the 7th or 8th century ? So ? The authenticity of the Koran is established through historical continuity between generations & not individuals where one generation transmitted the oral, written & historical evidence to the succeeding generation. And this continued on for generations upon generations without any evidence to suggest that the Koran was tampered with or reconstructed from any of the historical sources, to the best of my knowledge, from that era all the way up til the 8th century & later on.

Furthermore the role of the Hufaz cannot be belittled because herein there was no ecclesiastical structure to suggest that anything close to a differentiation between the Holy Texts being made available to the common man from the clergy. Thousands of Hufaz learned this at the time of the Prophet (PBUH) with one generation transmitting it to the other till now they measure in the millions each reciting the Koran in the same manner down to the last letter.

The oral tradition is the worst way of transmitting knowledge, at one point or another, the "hufaz" would've had revert back to the their local copy of the Quran.Think about it though, if there were many 'incomplete' variants of the Quran, can we trust the believers to submit this to history?

Were this the Iliad I would agree with for the original was contingent on one man & one man alone whereas in this oral tradition you've got thousands who gave it to hundreds of thousands who in turn gave it to millions. There is no evidence to suggest that there was ever a break in this historical continuity; no source from that time or after that, that I've ever come across that asserts to the contrary.

Answered already, this is not an Einstein question, I can't believe your seeing this basic verse of: blood:semen:limp: Flesh:bones as something miraculously awesome, it is a primitive verse and reflects the primitive understanding of the embryology of the time.

This is one of many alleged scientific miracles of the Koran from everything from the Nature of the Universe to the parting of seas.

Think about it; how did he know so much...not one, two but quite a few !

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

yaar Redbull,

you got sucked in by the Mullahtic debate. So sad to see.


There is no point in arguing about clots or unclots.


Ask these Islamist guys a simple question.

--- Is Quran a standard text book in biology, zoology, physics, chemistry, astronomy, mathematics or any branch of science.

-- If so which university?

--- If this university is in a Muslim country or a non-Muslim country.


Thank you.


and

peace to all,.,

Dr Zaghloul Mohammad Al Najjar is an Egyptian scholar and a prominent figure in scientific miraculousness in the Quran, He had been chosen the Dubai International Holy Quran Award's (DIHQA) Islamic Personality of 2006.

He has a PhD from Wales University in geology, specialising in micropalaeontology. He has worked in a variety of Universities around the world and currently is a Professor at King Saud University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

The Topic: The Scientific Precision of the Qur'an

Prof Zaghloul Al-Najjar speaks to an audience regarding the scientific facts revealed in the Qur'an at Lecture Theatre, University Hospital of Wales Cardiff. 2nd Feb, 1999.

 

[FaujHistorian]

....... I never studied Biology; I think @Talon would be a better bet at explaining away this ! !

Yara, no one these days reads Quran to learn Biology.

What kind of discussion is this.

Are you guys heck bent on making fun of Quran?

So sorry to see this

 

[Armstrong]

Yara, no one these days reads Quran to learn Biology.

What kind of discussion is this.

Are you guys heck bent on making fun of Quran?

So sorry to see this

I didn't say that !

What I said was that if the alleged allusions towards scientific facts in the Koran are true than maybe thats worth looking into & a form of corroborating the authenticity or the divinity of the Koran.

That doesn't imply that instead of using a Biology text book for teaching Biology you ask the students to open the Koran up !

 

[FaujHistorian]

Dr Zaghloul Mohammad Al Najjar is an Egyptian scholar and a prominent figure in scientific miraculousness in the Quran, He had been chosen the Dubai International Holy Quran Award's (DIHQA) Islamic Personality of 2006.

He has a PhD from Wales University in geology, specialising in micropalaeontology. He has worked in a variety of Universities around the world and currently is a Professor at King Saud University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

The Topic: The Scientific Precision of the Qur'an

Prof Zaghloul Al-Najjar speaks to an audience regarding the scientific facts revealed in the Qur'an at Lecture Theatre, University Hospital of Wales Cardiff. 2nd Feb, 1999.

[video=youtube;prNdIGq8gAU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prNdIGq8gAU[video]

OK. And your point is?