Islam and Democracy

[apophenia]

Unbeliever@ your exhaustive research is pretty flawed. a txt taken from a hate site or wik dont worth to waste my time.

 

[ajpirzada]

quite valid for this thread

talks about wat islam has to say about governing system

 

[Sinnerman108]

You really need to understand Islam!

You have wasted your time researching.

Or may be you are in the bad habit of extrapolating just anything to your benefit?!

As an appetizer, please google 'Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) Last Sermon', i am sure it will help your brain!

I don't see any thing wrong with the contributor's article in theory or essence.

Democracy comes part and parcel with freedom WHICH is not allowed by Islam.

Democracy as an instrument of choice is fine and there are plenty of examples for it.

However Democracy as a principle form of Government is not and can not be allowed under an Islamic estate.

Example: Parliament becomes the source of legislation.
No source of legislation is allowed BUT Quran.
Only interpretation is allowed that too by scholars.

I would read Allma Iqbal's work on this, Armaghan-e-Hijaz is a perfect example of the same.

 

[Unbeliever]

Thanks for being honest.

 

[qsaark]

Democracy comes part and parcel with freedom WHICH is not allowed by Islam.

Before dragging Islam into this, the question is, how much freedom qualifies for THE freedom? It is uncontrolled freedom that is not allowed in Islam; and not only in Islam, but also in Judaism and Christianity or any other religion for that matter.

Example: Parliament becomes the source of legislation.

You think Parliament's job is to invent legislations? What is legislation? Is it something that comes out of thin air? Has it something to do with the cultural norms or not? And if yes, what defines the cultural norms?

Can any parliament pass a legislation that a killer should go free? that it is legal to rob, that one can snatch goods without paying the price? if the answer is no, than why not? Because this is not what a civilized even some un-civilized society is used to based on thousands of years of experiences. What religion does? it re-inforces such observations, norms as rules, as laws.

No source of legislation is allowed BUT Quran.

Quran provides with the basic principles upon which rest of the laws are based.

Only interpretation is allowed that too by scholars.

How would it work if a merchant starts to teach art of soldiery in the military academies? or a lawyer starts running a physics lab?, or a bus driver becomes the Doctor? Is it not absolutely normal that a person who has the knowledge of Quran is allowed to interpret the meaning of Quran?

 

[third eye]

Surely we deserve more respect than that... Preconceptions 1 Reality 0.

One example, it is WE Pakistanis, all of us Muslim, that are running probably one of the most free board on the web where we allow absolute clash of ideas. Our faith does not come in between the rules of debate.

As far as Pakistan is concerned, democracy, freedom of speech, tolerance are all concepts that the majority of Pakistanis are willing to fight for. As far as Pakistan is concerned, they have voted out all Islamic parties this time around in elections and have voted for the most secular party of the country, PPP. Even the state center in Peshawar is controlled by a secular ANP.

I'll tell you what you're right, Islamic countries do have a poor record in it all. That's probably because they haven't had much freedoms in their entire life, most don't know any better and their leaders have pitched Islam in between their freedom. Its not really Islam's fault too, its just the damn leaders.

I second the highlighted part above.

No disrespect meant but :

Could the reason be the fact that Islam is a 'way of life & not a religion ( like all religions are) but appearsto be taken more seriously and imposed more rigidly than others ..and gets hijacked by mullahs faster than than the rest.

Also, moderate voices get snuffed out faster.

Yet there are countries like Turkey, Malaysia who have evolved for themselves a working arrangement for democracy within themselves

 

[Sinnerman108]

Before dragging Islam into this, the question is, how much freedom qualifies for THE freedom? It is uncontrolled freedom that is not allowed in Islam; and not only in Islam, but also in Judaism and Christianity or any other religion for that matter.

The topic of the thread is Islam and Democracy.
Thus Islam is in it, no question of dragging.

Second the essence of democracy is freedom of choice and legislate.
Thus when ever democracy is implemented in true sense, there will only
be ultimate freedom.

Every law is an infringement of freedom, thus every law is evil ?

How would it work if a merchant starts to teach art of soldiery in the military academies? or a lawyer starts running a physics lab?, or a bus driver becomes the Doctor? Is it not absolutely normal that a person who has the knowledge of Quran is allowed to interpret the meaning of Quran?

Isn't that what is wrong with democracy ?
Has Hillary clinton had training to become foreign secretary of USA ?
Had Asif Zardari been trained to be president ?
Is the sports minister an athlete him self ?

Is there any training for democracy at all ?
How can a person run for election and ask people for acceptance ?

I like to quote Adolf Hitler on this
" A leader is some one of extra ordinary intelligence and far sight beyond
ordinary people.
Democracy subjects that person of extra ordinary intelligence to the approval
of ordinary people"

 

[MilesTogo]

Democracy = Rule of the Majority
Majority in Pakistan wants Islam
then what's the problem
unless 1) majority does not want islam
or 2) unless democracy in Pakistan is not practiced correctly as a result majority's wishes are not heard

If it is (1) that no matter what you do, you will never have Islam in Pakistan,

if it is (2) then it is not democracy's fault - you need to practice it properly

 

[Unbeliever]

Democracy = Rule of the Majority

Nope. Democracy means "rule of the people".
Yes the majority opinion expressed in the political parties gets to recruit the cabinet, often times. But Democracy does NOT mean rule of the majority, although indirectly that might be one part of it.
More important though are other aspects without which there is no democracy like: Pluralism, protection of the political minorities are also essential. Among many other things like separation of powers, a binding constitution (of some kind) and so forth.

A full democracy requires many principles to be factually established, so Pakistan for example isn't fully there yet, although formally a democracy.


See, Rule of the Majority alone, can also be tyranny, see Jacobian Terror for example.
Or the early German "democracy" (Weimar Republic) which had the absolute rule of majority, annihilated itself and thereby democracy.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Democracy = Rule of the Majority
Majority in Pakistan wants Islam
then what's the problem
unless 1) majority does not want islam
or 2) unless democracy in Pakistan is not practiced correctly as a result majority's wishes are not heard

If it is (1) that no matter what you do, you will never have Islam in Pakistan,

if it is (2) then it is not democracy's fault - you need to practice it properly

This is a difficult topic, but I will try ..

Scenario 1.

True, a majority of people in Pakistan want Islam.
Once it is implemented, means Sharia is the law.
Once that is implemented then no change can be made in it.
thus "leaders" can not legislate.

there democracy equation breaks.

One can assume that an Islamic state will have an organization for administrating the business of governance.

Scenario 2.

Islam preaches equality for all, and means ALL.
The simple practice of choosing a "leader" breaks Islam's basic model ( Model = God -> [Prophet -> Book] -> People).
Islam prohibits the model of Ruler -> ruled.
Islam's model is that of God is the ONLY ruler.

Thus no one can be elected to rule the people or country.

Lets see what the forum thinks of it, may be refine my knowledge.

 

[Naradmuni]

Islam and Democracy

Islam and democracy are 180 degrees to each other.

Maybe thats why the Muslim khalifa is "selected" and not "elected" like pope.

 

[Naradmuni]

Democracy = Rule of the Majority

This is not totally correct in case of pakistan. What if the majority is intolerant to minority and wants them all converted? This is not the ingredient of democratic foundation. I have no hopes of a thriving democracy in pakistan and more or less the army rule over pakistan for so many decades, proves my point.

 

[Ultimate Warrior]

Islam and democracy are 180 degrees to each other.

Maybe thats why the Muslim khalifa is "selected" and not "elected" like pope.

There is exception the countries with Shia majority are democratic nations. They are more liberal, advance and educated.

And if you look at Saudi, UAE etc. you will realize dictatorship, radicals, war mongering and discrimination.

 

[EjazR]

@Narad and U. Warrior

You both seem to be woefully low on information about Islam and democratic countries. Particularly Narad.

Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Turkey e.t.c. have functioning democracies. The coincidently happen to be sunni majority as well. Even gulf countries like Kuwait, Bahrain and even Saudi Arabia hold elections for local govt. issues. Kuwait has a full fledge including female MPs.

On the other hand, you have countries like Tajikistan, Uzbekistan e.t.c. that are not religious and are still dictatorships

You might need to update you research on democratic countries with muslim majority.

The main principle of ruling in Islam is through consultation with people aka shura which is similar to democratic institutions. Hence a democratic form of govt. is closer to Islam then say a dictatorship like army rule.

Not to be confused with sharia which is the path to be followed and consists of theological opinions/rulings on various aspects.

 

[Naradmuni]

Self deleted