ISIS declares ‘caliphate’

[al-Hasani]

@Akheilos

There will be no modern-day Caliphate. That's the point. Thus I see no need to accept any foreign rule. I am just telling you the reality. Arabs see themselves as inheritors of the Caliphate and that's with damn good reasons. Some very obvious. Outside of the Rashidun Caliphates all the remaining Caliphs were more monarchs than actual Caliphs in the traditional sense.

If there was a new Caliph today in this modern day and age this would be even heavier emphasized.

Yes, I don't want non-Arabs to control/rule Arab land just as I don't have any interest in Arabs ruling non-Arabs.

It's not about Hijazis. This is irrelevant. Nobody in this age and time will accept foreign rule. Especially not Arabs who not only have a very long and proud imperial heritage but who are sick and tired of foreign interference in the ancient Middle East, Northern Africa etc.

You are talking from a religious standpoint like if a genuine Caliphate existed. I am talking from a realistic viewpoint as of now.

Just look at this thread.

Also who would lead such a Caliphate? All the holy lands are in the Arab world. Whether Makkah, Madinah, Al-Quds, Karbala, Najaf etc. What makes you think that those locals would suddenly bow down to outsiders after recent centuries of history?

The chances are simply 0.

France - Nigeria 1-0! Get in, LOL.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Saudi King should be made Caliph
and Iranian Ayatullah as an assistant Caliph.

problems solved.

Not!

 

[Multani]

yes. it is ethno fascist Arab vs. ajam debate.

Brother @al-Hasani said "We Arabs" ruled the world.


The reality is that modern day Saudi Arabia was dark place (intellectually and scientifically) even during those 1000 years.

All the science, progress, etc. was being done 100s if not 1000s of miles from modern day KSA.

Sorry to say that

Didn't mean to start an ethnic discussion during Ramzan.

Peace to you all.

you are spreading untruths. Modern Saudi Arabia produced hundreds of top scholars in Sunni Sufi Islam, Islamic Spirituality.

The most recent was Shaykh Kattani al Hasani and Shaykh al Barzanji al Husayni. Both of them were intellectual masters. And they are just the tip of the ice-berg.

@al-Hasani

 

[al-Hasani]

Saudi King should be made Caliph
and Iranian Ayatullah as an assistant Caliph.

problems solved.

Not!

How about no?

 

[anHuman]

Only Abu Bakr RA, Usman RA, and Ali RA were elected the rest were either selected or passed down from their father like a monarchy.

for me , it seems that turks force them to accept through their power ...

as I told , fo sunnis , Caliphat is social matter but for shia Caliphate is religious matter ...

There were only 11 Imams, Hassan al Askari RA never had a son.

lol ... for first step you made a good progress because most of sunni deny their Imam'at ... believe this and we will make sure you accept the existence of 12th Imam ...

 

[al-Hasani]

you are spreading untruths. Modern Saudi Arabia produced hundreds of top scholars in Sunni Sufi Islam, Islamic Spirituality.

The most recent was Shaykh Kattani al Hasani and Shaykh al Barzanji al Husayni. Both of them were intellectual masters. And they are just the tip of the ice-berg.

@al-Hasani

@FaujHistorian has a habit of bullshitting from time to time when matters in the Arab world are discussed. Maybe he has a problem with Arabs? I don't know and don't really care.

First of all KSA did not exist back then yet most of the greatest Arab scholars, scientists, clerics, rulers traced their ancestry or were directly from what is modern day KSA.

Anyway my point is this below:

Nobody will accept any foreign rule whether it is hidden under an religious banner or not. Those times of conquest have ended for good. Thus it is pointless to discuss a Caliphate as it was once known being applied in the modern-day age. Also good luck with Muslims controlling such a huge landmass in their current state. Most Muslim countries are on fire and people are discussing about a Caliphate. Talk about priorities.

Also despite this Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi lunatic being an Arab then no Arab will accept it. Even if the most respected Arab cleric suddenly got the idea of proclaiming himself as the Caliph no or at most a very tiny number of Arabs would accept him.

Let people rule themselves. Nobody here would be interested if I proposed that China ruled over Pakistan tomorrow. Or India. Even if India was 100% Muslim.

An economic/religious/social union truly representative and not a coffee club will not be a bad thing though. But a traditional Caliphate? At least not in our lifetime.

Also nobody has answered me who the new Caliph would be and where he would rule from? Where he would be from?

If those simple questions cannot be answered then better not discuss it at all.

 

[KingMamba]

lol ... for first step you made a good progress because most of sunni deny their Imam'at ... believe this and we will make sure you accept the existence of 12th Imam ...

Many Shias do not even accept your 12th Imam but let us leave the religious angle of this, no body can live for 1000+ years that is just logic.

 

[Dubious]

@Akheilos

There will be no modern-day Caliphate. That's the point. Thus I see no need to accept any foreign rule. I am just telling you the reality. Arabs see themselves as inheritors of the Caliphate and that's with damn good reasons. Some very obvious. Outside of the Rashidun Caliphates all the remaining Caliphs were more monarchs than actual Caliphs in the traditional sense.

I am also telling you the reality of this thought which is against prophet's last sermon...its not even a hadith that you can say is weak...its a well documented sermon...

Yes, I know what they see themselves as...I am asking if it is right? If it is right then was the last sermon a joke? Even after addressing Muslims as equal you guys cant fathom equality and call others as "foreigners"...

How is it good when the Sultan today is also a monarch and all of you have follow him? I have nothing against Saudi...But I def do have something against such superior mentality!

If there was a new Caliph today in this modern day and age this would be even heavier emphasized.

Yes, I don't want non-Arabs to control/rule Arab land just as I don't have any interest in Arabs ruling non-Arabs.

Thats the problem a Caliph doesnt rule but lead and manages and ministers never rule!

It's not about Hijazis. This is irrelevant. Nobody in this age and time will accept foreign rule. Especially not Arabs who not only have a very long and proud imperial heritage but who are sick and tired of foreign interference in the ancient Middle East, Northern Africa etc.

I understand each race has that pride...I am not talking about what you guys have or not...But about what the Prophet said and whom he addressed? He had addressed and said :

O People, listen to me in earnest, worship ALLAH, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth inZakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

You are talking from a religious standpoint like if a genuine Caliphate existed. I am talking from a realistic viewpoint as of now.

Just look at this thread.

Well if a Caliphate does exist it has to have a religious standpoint, right?

Also who would lead such a Caliphate? All the holy lands are in the Arab world. Whether Makkah, Madinah, Al-Quds, Karbala, Najaf etc. What makes you think that those locals would suddenly bow down to outsiders after recent centuries of history?

The chances are simply 0.
.

well I am addressing the problem and you are telling me the problem! I know what the problem is ...I am just showing how unrealistic it is esp when you want Arabs to be a Caliph...but you are racist calling other Mulsims as foreigners and outsiders! How do you think they will feel when you come to their land with your msg with that attitude that you can "rule and ask others to bow down" but you wont! That by its definition is not even a Muslim...coz a Muslim is one who will want the same for his brother what he wants for himself

As for bowing down...Again you fail to see what a Caliph is...Caliph doesnt ask 1 to bow to him but to ALLAH...mind you he would be a leader even in religion so how can 1 who knows Muslims bow to no one but ALLAH request a bow down...And how can one who has no haq on the national treasury "rule"...the word is lead as an ordinary man like Prophet Muhamamd used to live a normal life...even when he was offered riches from all over Arabia!

 

[KingMamba]

Saudi King should be made Caliph
and Iranian Ayatullah as an assistant Caliph.

problems solved.

Not!

Lmaooo walking through an alley in Mecca holding hands in harmony.

 

[GreenFoe]

I, hereby declare myself the Khalifa of PDF. Amir wa Khalifa t'ul bilad-e- PDFistan al Islami, Amir Aeronaut al Lahori.

Come my subjects, give me the kiss of loyalty on my ring.

@Dillinger @mastaan @Hyperion @nair @Yzd Khalifa

aL hINDI is a better word, Lahore is not an arabic word ,kufffffffarrr

 

[FaujHistorian]

you are spreading untruths. Modern Saudi Arabia produced hundreds of top scholars in Sunni Sufi Islam, Islamic Spirituality.

The most recent was Shaykh Kattani al Hasani and Shaykh al Barzanji al Husayni. Both of them were intellectual masters. And they are just the tip of the ice-berg.

@al-Hasani

Producing half-witted Mullahs is one thing
Producing top notch scientists and intellectuals is another.

Please keep the difference in mind.

Thank you

 

[al-Hasani]

@Akheilos

My point is just that Arabs will not accept foreign rule. The recent Western invasions in the Arab world showed this very clearly and the Americans learned it the hard way.

The point is also that nobody will be truly satisfied as every Muslim country would want a peace of the cake. Back then only the strongest ruled and eventually everybody else accepted it either by force or willingly. This is a fact.

Whoever rules KSA should not rule anything other than KSA. I am not interested in KSA having any leading position. I already wrote that Arabs should not rule non-Arabs again for centuries just like foreigners should not rule Arab land. That goes for the entire world. Why should any foreigner rule locals?!

Yet we both know that it was mostly about power outside of a few exceptions. Hence all the other titles that Caliphs used.

You have misunderstood me. You are saying that I want Arabs as Caliphs again while I have always said that I am not interested in such a thing. I don't want to rule others. Nor do I want to be ruled by outsiders! Whether they come under a religious clothing or because they want to spread their "democracy" or French Freedom Fries.

I am sorry but this is a idiotic discussion.

Look at the state of the Muslim world. Your own country with all due respect. Yet we are here talking about Caliphates. It's counterproductive.

@FaujHistorian

It's pretty well-known that 90% of all the top-modern scientists of the past 400-500 years have been from the West. Nothing surprising in that.

For millenniums before that position was held by the MIddle East (current day Arab world) and other regions of the world (China etc.)

This changes all the time and is not static.
Just look now with the rise of non-Western countries!

 

[Alienoz_TR]

We need reform, not Caliph.

Islam is becoming the religion of terrorists. If this is case, it wont be a healthy society.

 

[KingMamba]

@Akheilos

My point is just that Arabs will not accept foreign rule. The recent Western invasions in the Arab world showed this very clearly and the Americans learnt it the hard way.

The point is also that nobody will be truly satisfied at every Muslim country wanted a peace of the cake. Back then only the strongest ruled and eventually everybody else accepted it either by force or willingly. This is a fact.

Whoever rules KSA should not rule anything other than KSA. I am not interested in KSA having any leading position. I already wrote that Arabs should not rule non-Arabs again for centuries just like foreigners should not rule Arab land. That goes for the entire world. Why should any foreigner rule locals?!

Yet we both know that it was mostly about power outside of a few exceptions. Hence all the other titles that Caliphs used.

You have misunderstood me. You are saying that I want Arabs as Caliphs again while I have always said that I am not interested in such a thing. I don't want to rule others. Nor do I want to be ruled by outsiders! Whether they come under a religious clothing or because they want to spread their "democracy" or French Freedom Fries.

I am sorry but this is a idiotic discussion.

Look at the state of the Muslim world. Your own country with all due respect. Yet we are here talking about Caliphates. It's counterproductive.

Ok but I am still your Khalifa.

 

[FaujHistorian]

@Akheilos

My point is just that Arabs will not accept foreign rule.

Pretty much all Arab countries are being ruled by foreigners albeit indirectly through control using military, or economic or both.

This is why I say it is not good to think along Arab vs. Ajam lines.

It will not produce good outcome! intellectually!