ISI used LeT for anti-India activities: UN report

[ice_man]

wait a minute what was this report about benazir or ISI involvement in kashmir???

man indians are obsessed with LeT!! & ISI!! everything in india is done by IS & LeT!!!

 

[karan.1970]

wait a minute what was this report about benazir or ISI involvement in kashmir???

man indians are obsessed with LeT!! & ISI!! everything in india is done by IS & LeT!!!

No Indian involved in creating this report. However the UN team who were requested by your president drew the linkage between the groups like LeT used by ISI for anti India operations and threat to Benazir Bhutto...

 

[ice_man]

No Indian involved in creating this report. However the UN team who were requested by your president drew the linkage between the groups like LeT used by ISI for anti India operations and threat to Benazir Bhutto...

UN:

1)the one that allowed USA to enter iraq in 2003! without sufficent evidence!

2) Allowed israel to opress the palestanians!

3) Allowed the israelis to attack lebanon without sanctions being imposed!

4) the same UN that give Benazir report when MI6 failed due to insufficent evidence!

so please spare me the BS about UN being an organization with a spine and able to stand upto USA!

 

[karan.1970]

UN:

1)the one that allowed USA to enter iraq in 2003! without sufficent evidence!

2) Allowed israel to opress the palestanians!

3) Allowed the israelis to attack lebanon without sanctions being imposed!

4) the same UN that give Benazir report when MI6 failed due to insufficent evidence!

so please spare me the BS about UN being an organization with a spine and able to stand upto USA!

Dude.. Dont jump down my throat.. Your president requested for this investigation by UN. Wasnt a Suo Moto step by the spineless UN. And your president's office has accepted the report and expressed satisfaction with it.. Dont drag India into it..

 

[Old School]

It is unwise to debate about the activities of an intelligence organization since their activities are not in publicly accessible records. The UN CoI report is purely based on speculations rather than facts. It is an old diplomatic way to put a blame first and then get the accused keep denying. This is a widely played diplomatic game.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

This can't be the official stand at-least after 9/11... They themselves have banned LET because it was declared terrorist organization by UN...Rest the logic is nothing but Bull SH!T because any civilian deaths by so called insurgents is nothing but terrorism...I am sure TTP is a terrorist organization and not some freedom fighters...

The official stance is that there is no support for the LeT, as the UN commission notes both former and current intelligence officials as stating, and as both the current GoP and Military leadership has stated.

However, support for an insurgency in disputed territory is not terrorism. Pakistan's stance remains that the Indian Army is an occupation force in J&K and that the world recognizes the right of legitimate armed resistance against an occupation.

Of course when you have armed resistance you will have civilian casualties as well, in some cases by militants, and in others by the Indian Army.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

According to popular belief, infiltration has reduced along the LoC. But ... it is good to be prepared for nasty surprises.


Getting Ready for a Hot Summer | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses

Prepare myself for a useless expression of braggadocio by the author?

Nothing in that article offers anything in support of the contention that cross-Loc insurgent activity is at the levels it was in the nineties.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM, tell me one thing. How do you view JuD and Hafiz Saeed?

I believe Pakistan should abide by the UN sanctions on the two, but given the lack of a fair trial of the individual and entity, I cannot claim to be convinced of their guilt in supporting 'terrorism'.

 

[Dr.Evil]

The official stance is that there is no support for the LeT, as the UN commission notes both former and current intelligence officials as stating, and as both the current GoP and Military leadership has stated.

However, support for an insurgency in disputed territory is not terrorism. Pakistan's stance remains that the Indian Army is an occupation force in J&K and that the world recognizes the right of legitimate armed resistance against an occupation.

Of course when you have armed resistance you will have civilian casualties as well, in some cases by militants, and in others by the Indian Army.

This short sighted ness of pak govt. is causing all the trouble in Pakistan and India.
Still some people see Good Taliban & Bad Taliban
Good Terrorist and Bad Terrorist, good Jihadi & Bad Jihadi.

All of them are bad for the societies.

 

[karan.1970]

The official stance is that there is no support for the LeT, as the UN commission notes both former and current intelligence officials as stating, and as both the current GoP and Military leadership has stated.

However, support for an insurgency in disputed territory is not terrorism. Pakistan's stance remains that the Indian Army is an occupation force in J&K and that the world recognizes the right of legitimate armed resistance against an occupation.


Of course when you have armed resistance you will have civilian casualties as well, in some cases by militants, and in others by the Indian Army.

Agno.. Disagree on the bold part above.. Associating with a declared terrorist organization for any activity is improper for a state organization. Specially if the parent state itself has declared that organization as a terrorist org..

So if ISI supplies money to LeT for insurgency in Kashmir, how does it ensure that a part of that money is not used in operations like 26/11 or Parliament attack...

There is a concept of Accessory after the fact you know...

And anyway the UN report discredits the official stand of links being in the past only by saying that all independent analysts believe otherwise...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Page 49 para 207 talk about LeT and ISI linkage in the Al Quida section

The point you are refering to is in para 217 on page 52 under Threats from within Establishment

That section primarily refers to past support of the ISI for insurgents in Afghanistan and Kashmir, with only one phrase 'has close ties' that you insist is damning.

"The Pakistani military and ISI also used and supported some of these groups in the Kashmir insurgency after 1989. The bulk of the anti-Indian activity was and still remains the work of groups such as Lashkar e Taiba, which has close ties with the ISI."

Despite being in a different paragraph, the material in par 207 is linked to para 217:

"While several Pakistani current and former intelligence officials told the Commission that their agencies no longer had such ties in 2007, virtually all independent analysts provided information to the contrary and affirmed the ongoing nature of many such links."

Both talk about ISI-LeT links, with the second going into more detail over the allegation of ISI-LeT links in the present. On that count it is clear that the commission has no new evidence, or any evidence for that matter, substantiating the allegation of continuing ISI-LeT links, It very specifically refers to the the fact that 'Independent Analysts' are of the opinion that these ties continue to exist, and also provides the counter opinion that such ties do not exist.

You cannot detach the two paras unless some other LeT or ISI is being referred to in para 217.

We can keep debating whether Paksitan is encouraging drop in infiltration or not but the topic here is the Contents of the UN report. Not the correctness of it.. I will leave the judgement of that correctness to Pakistan establishment and UN..

Of course Pakistan assisted in reducing the infiltration drop, why on earth would MMS start back-channel talks with Pakistan if Pakistan was continuing to support cross-LoC infiltration? The problem is that the Indian establishment and media do not want to give Pakistan credit for anything so that the can continue to brainwash Indians into continuing to hate Pakistan.

As for the contents of the UN report, there is nothing in terms of the claims regarding 'ISI-LeT links', as argued above, that is of concern.

BTW, it does appear that the GoP is being very specific in accepting the report:

"In an official statement, issued almost 20 hours after the release of the UN report, the president said the PPP had been claiming that the Musharraf government was responsible — first, for the criminal neglect in providing security to Ms Bhutto and, second, by hushing up available evidence to cover up the crime.

Except for blaming the previous regime, the president did not mention any thing on the report’s findings that also mentioned failure of the PPP in providing a foolproof security cover to Benazir and conducting a result-oriented investigation to unveil faces despite a lapse of over two years. "

"Pakistan Friday welcomed a report by a UN-appointed panel which said the assassination of former premier Benazir Bhutto could have been averted.

Farhatullah Babar, a spokesman for President Zardari, said in a statement “the Pakistan Peoples Party welcomes this endorsement as the main thrust of the UN report”."
DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Pakistan welcomes UN report on Bhutto assassination

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Agno.. Disagree on the bold part above.. Associating with a declared terrorist organization for any activity is improper for a state organization. Specially if the parent state itself has declared that organization as a terrorist org..

So if ISI supplies money to LeT for insurgency in Kashmir, how does it ensure that a part of that money is not used in operations like 26/11 or Parliament attack...

There is a concept of Accessory after the fact you know...

And anyway the UN report discredits the official stand of links being in the past only by saying that all independent analysts believe otherwise...

You are distorting my post - I already clarified, in the same post right above the bolded section, what the GoP stance on the LeT is.

My statement about insurgency being separate from terrorism is made more generally, and refers to Pakistani support for groups when they were not designated terrorist organizations or are not currently designated as such.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

This short sighted ness of pak govt. is causing all the trouble in Pakistan and India.
Still some people see Good Taliban & Bad Taliban
Good Terrorist and Bad Terrorist, good Jihadi & Bad Jihadi.

All of them are bad for the societies.

There is no shortsightedness - if you occupy a people then the people have legitemate right to resist, either politically or militarily.

Occupation and subjugation of millions is also 'extremely bad for societies'. Perhaps India should let the Kashmiris determine which nation they wish to be a part of then, under a UN held plebiscite?

 

[karan.1970]

That section primarily refers to past support of the ISI for insurgents in Afghanistan and Kashmir, with only one phrase 'has close ties' that you insist is damning.
.
..
...
Farhatullah Babar, a spokesman for President Zardari, said in a statement “the Pakistan Peoples Party welcomes this endorsement as the main thrust of the UN report”."[/I]
DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Pakistan welcomes UN report on Bhutto assassination

Agno

You can nitpick on the words here.. But at the end of it, UN report no where uses CYA words like alleged or in opinion of while talking about the present existence of these linkages.. Which lends me to believe that the Information(not opinions) provided by independent analysts was credible enough for UN to base its statements on.

Is this legally damning.. No.. But we are not going to court with this anyway...All this shows is what the world body (rightly or wrongly ) believes

Also, I dont know if and why MMS initiated back channels talk with Pakistan.. and niether do you.. for all you know it was to threaten Pakistan with increased moralsupport to Balochistan etc if Pakistan does not behave in Kashmir.. Really its foolish to believe Pakistan would tone down its actions in Kashmir out of goodness of its heart..

About acceptance.. havent seen any rebuttles of any part of the report as yet.. While accepting the report, making a comment about a part of that report in a positive light, does not automatically discredit the remaining parts..

And Zardari et all will be very careful discrediting anything. Specially if they knew what information(not opinions) was shared by independent analysts that led to UN asserting the existence of the links between LeT and ISI at present. For all you know UN may disclose that publically...

 

[karan.1970]

You are distorting my post - I already clarified, in the same post right above the bolded section, what the GoP stance on the LeT is.

My statement about insurgency being separate from terrorism is made more generally, and refers to Pakistani support for groups when they were not designated terrorist organizations or are not currently designated as such.

Just like the UN report, and the independent analysts, I dont believe that ISI does not have any linkages at present..But I understand your stand on the bold paragraph now..