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ISI used LeT for anti-India activities: UN report

so are you suggesting UN should probe the links between ISI and LeT??

will govt. of pakitan will take the initiative to get a clean chit by asking UN???

I am just pointing out that the UN commission did not probe the ISI-LeT relationship in detail.

Do I think it should? No. I think the UN should first offer a free and fair trial to the JuD and Hafiz Saeed in a neutral country to establish whether its charge of terrorism is justified or not.
 
yes, and the preceding line clearly establishes what the scope of this anti-Indian activity is i.e. insurgency.
So as I said.. ISI and Pakistani Army presently use a banned terrorist organization that is blamed for terrorist activities in India to promote insurgency (not terrorism) in Kashmir ..

If that's what your stand is, I totally agree..


The investigation into BB's assassination involved dealing with all the players involved in the event itself - government officials, law enforcement officials, security officials, military and intelligence officials etc. It also involved access to any material evidence related to the attack that had been collected so far. The investigation into the murder was therefore a far more thorough and direct investigation.

The comments related to the ISI, however are, in the commissions own report, contradicted by both current and former intelligence officials (people with direct access to what is going on), and supported by some 'analysts'. You would have expected at least former intelligence officials to confirm such a relationship (off the record) to the UN commission. An analyst is not 'evidence' in any sense of the word. An analyst offers opinion. The UN commission included that opinion in its report, and it made clear the source of that opinion, and the fact that it was not a unanimous opinion.

Why would intelligence officers who themselves had culpability in dealing with these terror outfits admit to the same.. The only contradition they gave was that while they previously used LeT, it has stopped doing that now...

Also, please note.. UN has not qualified these comments as those analysts opinion.. They have mentioned this linkage independently as their assertion. This information and analysis is considered credible enough by UN to base their assertions on. And thats the crux of it..
 
"It said that while several Pakistani current and former intelligence officials told the Commission that their agencies no longer had such ties in 2007, but virtually all independent analysts provided information to the contrary and affirmed the ongoing nature of many such links. "

As I postulated earlier, the commission is basing this off the existing opinions of some 'analysts',

Interesting how "virtually all independent analysts" becomes "some analysts"


whereas 'several Pakistani current and former intelligence officials', who would have the best insight into this relationship, said that no such relationship existed anymore.

They would also have the best reason to deny such a linkage. Little wonder that the U.N. and pretty much everyone else attaches no importance to such self serving exonerative statements.

I would say then that it is pretty clearly established that the UN commission did no offer any new information

Agreed. All of this has been known to "virtually all independent analysts" for years.

, did not indict the ISI for complicity in terrorism, and based its comments on the current nature of the ISI-LeT relationship on hearsay.

If the first part of the sentence was true, the second part would not have been necessary.
 
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So as I said.. ISI and Pakistani Army presently use a banned terrorist organization that is blamed for terrorist activities in India to promote insurgency (not terrorism) in Kashmir ..

If that's what your stand is, I totally agree..
And if the linkage between the LeT and ISI is to 'promote insurgency', then the dramatic drop in cross-LoC insurgency (for several years now) means that the linkage no longer exists.
Why would intelligence officers who themselves had culpability in dealing with these terror outfits admit to the same.. The only contradition they gave was that while they previously used LeT, it has stopped doing that now...
Because there was no risk to former officials in pointing out these ties and staying anonymous. Many former military and intelligence officials have come out with claims in the past that might be considered by some as being embarrassing to their parent organizations.
Also, please note.. UN has not qualified these comments as those analysts opinion.. They have mentioned this linkage independently as their assertion. This information and analysis is considered credible enough by UN to base their assertions on. And thats the crux of it..
What did the UN base its comments on then?

Exploring the ISI-LeT relationship was not their mandate - it is obvious that the commissions comments were based on the opinions of some analysts, and there was enough doubt that they chose to mention the opposing POV as well.

If the commission actually based its comments on the ISI-LeT relationship on any new, independent evidence, then what is it?
 
The commission clearly indicates that its comments about any current relationship between the ISI and the LeT are based on the opinions of analysts, and that several current and former intelligence officials it interviewed said the opposite.
No it does not. Where it mentions the LeT and Army/ISI linkage (under Al quida), there is no such qualification. It mentions this point about analysts and intelligence officers in reference to another context while talking about threat to Benazir from the establishment..

Secondly, given that the LeT is primarily a Pakistan based organization, it can only support the insurgency in Kashmir through cross-LoC infiltration. And given that cross-LoC infiltration has fallen to almost nothing, one can argue that based on the argument that the ISI supported the LeT for insurgency purposes, there is no more ISI support for the LeT, which is directly responsible for the drop in cross-LoC insurgent traffic.

Corelation does not amount to causation...There can be 100 other reasons for this reduction..

It can also be argued based on the arguement that because of increased development leading to reduced local support and increaing effectiveness of army in Kashmir, the ability of ISI supported LeT insurgents to infilterate has been dramatically reduced, leading to this reduction...
 
Interesting how "vitually all independent analysts" becomes "some analysts"
Can you prove that they in fact did interview 'ALL' independent analysts?

They would also have the best reason to deny such a linkage. Little wonder that the U.N. and pretty much everyone else attaches no importance to such self serving exonerative statements.

See my response to Karan. And if the views of these people meant nothing, why interview them in the first place and include their opinions in the report?
Agreed. All of this has been known to "virtually all independent analysts" for years.
Support for insurgency in the past, yes. Beyond that these 'independent analysts' have no justification for their opinions either, at least based on the various articles they write that are routinely dissected on this forum.
If the first part of the sentence was true, the second part would not have been necessary.
That is incorrect. The first part is not necessarily related to the second. The first part refers to support for terrorism, and the UN commission at no point makes that charge. The second part is related to an existing relationship with a particular group, and on that count the UN commission has based its comments on the opinions of some analysts, and has therefore just offered another opinion based on an opinion.
 
No it does not. Where it mentions the LeT and Army/ISI linkage (under Al quida), there is no such qualification. It mentions this point about analysts and intelligence officers in reference to another context while talking about threat to Benazir from the establishment..
The excerpts from the report we have discussed so far (that I posted a while back) clearly indicate that the UN is basing its comments on opinions of analysts. What sections are you referring to?

Corelation does not amount to causation...There can be 100 other reasons for this reduction..

It can also be argued based on the arguement that because of increased development leading to reduced local support and increaing effectiveness of army in Kashmir, the ability of ISI supported LeT insurgents to infilterate has been dramatically reduced, leading to this reduction...

In this particular case the drop in infiltration coincided with a ceasefire agreement along the LoC, back channel dialog between India and Pakistan, and Musharraf's public stance of coming to a compromise through dialog with India on resolving the Kashmir dispute. There is a direct tie between these events and the drop in insurgency. Just because Indians want to continue to denigrate Pakistan and not given it credit for helping cut the insurgency does not change the fact that it did indeed do all that.
 
And if the linkage between the LeT and ISI is to 'promote insurgency', then the dramatic drop in cross-LoC insurgency (for several years now) means that the linkage no longer exists.
No it does not.. Its as ridiculous as saying that because the population of storks has gone up in an area, the population growth in that area will go up irrespective of whether people have s** or not..


Because there was no risk to former officials in pointing out these ties and staying anonymous. Many former military and intelligence officials have come out with claims in the past that might be considered by some as being embarrassing to their parent organizations.

Again.. Incorrect. How do you know they are still not involved. Why would they risk it at all..Nothing to gain talking about their own past crimes...

What did the UN base its comments on then?

You should ask UN. They have not qualified these statements as unsubstantiated opinions or allegations. Please go thru the complete report to see that the word alleged has been used quite a few times where UN did not want put their credibility behind the statement.. Unlike this assertion...

Exploring the ISI-LeT relationship was not their mandate - it is obvious that the commissions comments were based on the opinions of some analysts, and there was enough doubt that they chose to mention the opposing POV as well.

If the commission actually based its comments on the ISI-LeT relationship on any new, independent evidence, then what is it?

Nothing obvious about it.. Exploring ISI LeT nexus was not their mandate but that nexus came up as a possible Al Quida related threat to Benazir and hence was explored...I dont see any opposing POV menioned in the section of Al Quida where this assertion is given...Its is a different section all together and is refuted..

For evidence , you will need to check with your president who has accepted the report in totality with satisfaction...
 
The excerpts from the report we have discussed so far (that I posted a while back) clearly indicate that the UN is basing its comments on opinions of analysts. What sections are you referring to?

Page 49 para 207 talk about LeT and ISI linkage in the Al Quida section

The point you are refering to is in para 217 on page 52 under Threats from within Establishment

In this particular case the drop in infiltration coincided with a ceasefire agreement along the LoC, back channel dialog between India and Pakistan, and Musharraf's public stance of coming to a compromise through dialog with India on resolving the Kashmir dispute. There is a direct tie between these events and the drop in insurgency. Just because Indians want to continue to denigrate Pakistan and not given it credit for helping cut the insurgency does not change the fact that it did indeed do all that.
We can keep debating whether Paksitan is encouraging drop in infiltration or not but the topic here is the Contents of the UN report. Not the correctness of it.. I will leave the judgement of that correctness to Pakistan establishment and UN..
 
The commission clearly indicates that its comments about any current relationship between the ISI and the LeT are based on the opinions of analysts, and that several current and former intelligence officials it interviewed said the opposite.

Secondly, given that the LeT is primarily a Pakistan based organization, it can only support the insurgency in Kashmir through cross-LoC infiltration. And given that cross-LoC infiltration has fallen to almost nothing, one can argue that based on the argument that the ISI supported the LeT for insurgency purposes, there is no more ISI support for the LeT, which is directly responsible for the drop in cross-LoC insurgent traffic.

Care to explain a bit more on the bolded part...How come LET being a Pakistan based organization can only support insurgency in Kashmir??? I would like to understand your reasoning behind this claim because i have a suspicion you are underminig the capabilities of LET....


has fallen to almost nothing, one can argue that based on the argument that the ISI supported the LeT for insurgency purposes, there is no more ISI support for the LeT, which is directly responsible for the drop in cross-LoC insurgent traffic.

Glad you atleast accepted that ISI supported insurgency in the past....ON contrary if insugency rises again would that mean ISI is again back to supporting terrorism because as per your logic IA is like sitting ducks and none of their efforts have brought down this number???
 
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Care to explain a bit more on the bolded part...How come LET being a Pakistan based organization can only support insurgency in Kashmir??? I would like to understand your reasoning behind this claim because i have a suspicion you are underminig the capabilities of LET....




Glad you atleast accepted that ISI supported insurgency in the past....ON contrary if insugency rises again would that mean ISI is again back to supporting terrorism???


Pakistan's stance is that killing of Military personnel and collateral damage (kiiling Civilians) in Kashmir is not terrorism but insurgency..Even if that is being done by an organization branded as a terror outfit by Pakistan and UN
 
Pakistan's stance is that killing of Military personnel and collateral damage (kiiling Civilians) in Kashmir is not terrorism but insurgency..Even if that is being done by an organization branded as a terror outfit by Pakistan and UN

This can't be the official stand at-least after 9/11... They themselves have banned LET because it was declared terrorist organization by UN...Rest the logic is nothing but Bull SH!T because any civilian deaths by so called insurgents is nothing but terrorism...I am sure TTP is a terrorist organization and not some freedom fighters...
 
I gues no one can say anything regarding the murky world of Intel agencies with sound accuracy, not even a UN report. Every Intel agency maintains its resources , its not something new. Just take the example of the fraud elections in afghanistan which helped karzai came to power. Even though the UN officer blowed the whistle , but nothing happened. The US has still links with the so called moderate and workable talibans at the same time its fighting them .

Why is it the ISI which the UN report targeted, where as it compleetely neglects the root cause of all this evil, the masacre and the blodshed and the deprivation of basic human rights to the ordinary Kashmiris by the cruelty of Indian forces and lack of will to solve the dispute...!Where ever theres injustice evil will find its way .
 
According to popular belief, infiltration has reduced along the LoC. But ... it is good to be prepared for nasty surprises.


Getting Ready for a Hot Summer | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses

Getting Ready for a Hot Summer
=====================
April 5, 2010
India’s Defence Minister warned of a ‘Hot Summer’ ahead for the army in Jammu & Kashmir on account of an expected increase in infiltration bids from Pakistan-based militants. “The army is gearing up to meet new challenges as this summer is going to be a hot summer in terms of security; adding that sacrifices will have to be made.”

It is often said that the Pakistan Army thinks it is winning. It has successfully subdued the Taliban in Swat and South Waziristan. It is now trying to tackle the menace in North Waziristan also. Following a ‘successful’ strategic dialogue with the United States in Washington, Kayani must feel reasonably satisfied with the outcome even if an India type civil-nuclear deal is only a very slim possibility in the distant future. What with Obama telling Karzai to crack down on corruption during his recent six-hour long nocturnal visit to Kabul and the arrest of Bardar a key interlocutor for Karzai’s plans to start negotiations with the disaffected groups in that country, the Pakistan Army must feel more optimistic of finally carving out a substantive political/military role for itself in the post-US period that would most likely begin sometime after July 2011. What with Chinese engineers and workers building many tunnels and bridges in the Gilgit-Baltistan region of ***************** Kashmir in their efforts to upgrade the famous Karakoram Friendship Highway into an all-weather axis for further assistance from China, the northern areas must also appear to Pakistan more secure than before even if the local population of Shias and Sufi, peace loving people, languish in poverty.

The only area where Kayani cannot feel totally comfortable is the areas along the Line of Control (LoC) with the Indian State of J&K and this is not because he is not trying but due mainly to the fact that four out of every six terrorists that his army pushes into India are routinely killed in the first few hours of their illegal entry. It is for this reason that his army will try its hardest to increase infiltration during the coming summer. What then should India do? India has so far followed a purely defensive approach by awaiting the arrival of the infiltrators before engaging them as near the LoC as possible. The problem with this strategy, as even a subaltern in the army knows, is that the initiative is entirely and wholly with the enemy. The enemy chooses the time of day or night or place or numbers to be sent in, while the Indian Army has to make intelligent guesses and confront the terrorists after they have already gained entry. The Indian Army’s casualties have sometimes been significant with officers and JCOs also being lost.

It is time India surprised Kayani by being a little more proactive. The nearly five-year long cease fire along the LoC has given the Pakistan Army total immunity from any Indian reaction and complete freedom to ratchet up or down and calibrate the process of infiltration according to its own convenience. As a result the enemy incurs negligible costs but India loses valuable soldiers.

First, India must deploy a larger contingent of commandos or Special Forces teams in the likely areas of ingress and also keep a sizeable number on alert. Second, India should deploy support helicopters such as the IAF Mi-17 and Army Dhruv to quickly move troops where and when needed and also for immediate casualty evacuation even if some believe that the sound of the helicopters often warns the infiltrators. Third, the Indian Air Force should then deploy at least a dozen attack helicopters with guns and rockets to engage any group of suspected infiltrators on the LoC after sending a solemn warning to the other side that future infiltration bids would invite an instantaneous, robust but calibrated response from India.

This is not a new idea. Armies and air forces the world over are routinely taking offensive action against their enemies. Pakistan, as is only too well known, has routinely bombed militants in Swat and South Waziristan and also FATA. The Saudis bombed the Al Shabab terrorists along their southern borders with Yemen. Yemen’s forces employed some MiG-29 fighters to kill 68 suspected al Qaeda operatives in that country recently. The United States launched a few helicopters from a ship along the coast of Southern Somalia and killed an al Qaeda member, Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan among others, on 14th September 2009 and picked up the bodies for DNA matching in an operation codenamed ‘Celestial Balance’. It has routinely used air power including killer drones to eliminate the Taliban and al Qaeda operatives in Afghanistan and earlier in Iraq. Israel has routinely employed covert and overt actions against Hamas and other adversaries. Besides reporting these actions as daily news the world at large has not taken any notice nor protested, but India is repeatedly praised for the ‘exceptional restraint’ that it routinely exercises. The non-proliferation lobby in the United States and elsewhere also never fails to tell us how dangerous it is for India to get provoked by the cross-border terrorist strikes that it experiences on a daily basis. Could the fear of escalation or worse the absence of an army-air force joint plan be the reason for such excessive restraint?

One wonders if showing such puzzling restraint is then really helping the cause of ‘zero tolerance’ against terrorism. Would the Americans begin talking to Osama bin Laden simply because there has been no attack on US soil since 9/11?

We now have a new Chairman Chiefs of Staff Committee and a former commando as the new Army Chief. It should not be too difficult for them to devise a joint plan to check infiltration at the source during the coming hot months. The defence minister is indeed correct that ‘sacrifices’ would have to be made but this time India should offer that privilege to the Pakistani Army.

:cheers:
 

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