Is the Barak 8 SAM a big mistake?

[As is - where is]

I think that the Barak 8 missiles are really good. Any ship with these missiles must have extremely good air defense capabilities.

 

[uparyupari]

Personally, I have no interests in whether the criticisms have any credible sources for support or not. What I explained is the foundation of all brands and is independent of any comparison that anyone want to make between brands A, B, or C. Whether one missile is any more lethal than its competitors lies within, as in the sophistication of the math, the electronics, the software, and the mechanics.

What people tends to believe is that if you can do/go X to Y limit, then you MUST make X go to that limit. In the real world, speed limits the accuracy and precision of the ability to perceive, whether that ability came from the human eye or a radar antenna. It must fall upon the situation to help design the tool that is best suited for that situation. So if it is true that the Barak is slower than the Aster, does that mean the Barak's designer does not know how to make it go as fast as as the Aster ? Or is it possible, and even more likely, that the Barak's designers have a different set of priorities for the Barak based upon the common situation this weapon will be employed ?

Hypothetically...If a missile can accelerate to Mach 100 in a micro second, then what need is there for sophisticated proportional navigation guidance to calculate multiple possible interception points ? Not a high priority because for the target, a few micro seconds will be needed to execute a maneuver, and if the interceptor can go to Mach 100 in one micro second, the target literally have no escape window in both computing time and physical space.

But now when there are brands whose designers learned the same mathematics, able to perform the same mechanical engineering, and have access to the same materiel, it pretty much falls to philosophies, as in the beliefs of what is the best way(s) to counter a threat in a certain combat scenario or scenarios. If I was involved in something like this, I would inject my personal philosophy of maneuverability over speed in the start of the design process. Then as time goes by, maybe new technology become available that may push my personal belief lower in that list of priorities.

And that is how things goes...

It has already gone on that path since lasers have arrived that accelerate much faster than Mach 100 and is designed to bring down incoming missiles.

Are Missile Defense Lasers On The Verge Of Reality? « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary

 

[gambit]

what is the maximum speed of the target it can shoot down ?

Surface to air missile (SAM) should be launch either as head on collision scenario or when the target is in transit across your view.

For your question, it mean you want to launch the interceptor in a tail chase scenario and in a tail chase scenario, there should be at least a 2-1 speed advantage over the target. That mean if the interceptor is rated at Mach 2, the maximum top speed for the target should be Mach 1 in order to have better than 50/50 odds of a hit.

 

[kaku1]

Surface to air missile (SAM) should be launch either as head on collision scenario or when the target is in transit across your view.

For your question, it mean you want to launch the interceptor in a tail chase scenario and in a tail chase scenario, there should be at least a 2-1 speed advantage over the target. That mean if the interceptor is rated at Mach 2, the maximum top speed for the target should be Mach 1 in order to have better than 50/50 odds of a hit.

I dont know about missile but, one question.

All these high mach SAM attain there top speed just after launch, or just within few seconds after launch? How much distance or time require to them for attaining full speed.

I am asking this what if a sea skimming missile coming at ship, and ship radar only able to detect like say 30-40 Km, did we have any benefit of high mach SAM in this situation?

 

[UKBengali]

I dont know about missile but, one question.

All these high mach SAM attain there top speed just after launch, or just within few seconds after launch? How much distance or time require to them for attaining full speed.

I am asking this what if a sea skimming missile coming at ship, and ship radar only able to detect like say 30-40 Km, did we have any benefit of high mach SAM in this situation?

Aster 30 SAM needs 3.5 secs to reach Mach 4 - there is a good reason why US/EU / Russia and China all have high- speed long-range SAMs.

 

[skynet]

Aster 30 SAM needs 3.5 secs to reach Mach 4 - there is a good reason why US/EU / Russia and China all have high- speed long-range SAM

Barak 8 is also a high speed sam , that mach 2 figure is false @500

 

[Last Samuri]

If the Barak is good enough for Israel I am 100% certain they are good enough for india

 

[Penguin]

AEW platforms give a new dimension to fleet defense as they can detect incoming aircraft and missiles several hundred km away as these platforms fly at altitudes of 5000 m or above. They follow the following process.
1) AEW asset detects incoming Anti-Ship missiles at a distance of ~150 km from the main fleet.
2) AEW asset relays the details of the hostile missiles back to the fleet and to the fighter aircraft operating from the fleet carrier.
3) Fighters armed with Air to air missiles switch on afterburner and speed towards the indicated target.
4) Fighters detect the incoming hostile missiles on their own radar and lock on to it.
5) Once the hostile missiles are in range, multiple AAMs are fired and a successful interception ensures.
6) Hostile AShMs rarely make it past this stage. If they do, they are quickly acquired by the ship borne radars and shot down using long/medium range SAMs.

The existing naval AEW assets are E-2, Ka-31 and Seaking AEW. These are operated by US, Russia, China, UK, France and India.

How To Shoot Down Anti-Ship Missiles : Part-1 : Introduction | DefencyclopediaHow To Shoot Down Anti-Ship Missiles: Part-2: Detection Using Radars | Defencyclopedia
Explained – Can The US Navy Can Shoot Down The Deadly BrahMos Missile? | Defencyclopedia

Add Italy (4 Merlin based AEW choppers)

Any navy with a large helicopter capable ship (LSD/LPD with hangar, LHD/LPH, "DDH", JSS, an AOR with hangar space for 2-3 units, or that a navy which works with groups of large combat ships with hangar space for 2 united per ship can use Ka-31, SeaKing AEW2/5/ASaC7 (Airborne Surveillance and Control Mk.7), Merlin
AEW/ASaC variant or EV-22 (AEW V-22) to significantly improve detection. No rotary wing mentioning AEW UAVs of the future.

If you have a group of 4 double hangar destroyers and frigates, you bring 8 helicopters e.g. a mix of 3 AEW and 5 ASW variants....

 

[500]

The missile will have a length of about 4.5m, diameter of 0.54m and a wingspan of 0.94m. It can travel at a maximum speed of Mach 2, with an operational range of 70km.

Calm down guys. 2 Mach speed is nonsense. Just like 0.54 m diameter. Journos are reposting that nonsense without even thinking a bit.

 

[desimorty]

Did some investigation, weather true or not, The Kolkatta have 32 Baraks fitted below decks that are loaded internally to VLS launch module. This would explain the empty deck space. So in all thats 64 Barak 8 missiles.

 

[Penguin]

Did some investigation, weather true or not, The Kolkatta have 32 Baraks fitted below decks that are loaded internally to VLS launch module. This would explain the empty deck space. So in all thats 64 Barak 8 missiles.

BS.

 

[gambit]

All these high mach SAM attain there top speed just after launch, or just within few seconds after launch? How much distance or time require to them for attaining full speed.

Rockets used as weapons are usually designed to attain their max speed a few seconds after launch. Rockets for non-weapons purposes, such as for satellite launches, are designed to have a less steep thrust curve.

For example...

Solid fuel are preferable because they are far less maintenance intensive than liquid fuel, and for deployed rockets, aka missiles, solid fuel is mandatory.

The above is an illustration of some -- not all -- of the most common solid fuel shapes in use. Each shape have its own thrust curve. For certain applications, combinations of shapes can be used.

If the missile is very short range, like in immediate battlefield conditions to wielded by one soldier, then the missile should be lightweight, which pretty much will compels you to limit your shape combinations and maybe your design will contain only one shape -- no. 6.

If the missile is intended for long range, like the AMRAAM type, then maybe there are 5 then 3.

The size and shape combinations are top secret, of course. So for the Barak, speculate all you want.

I am asking this what if a sea skimming missile coming at ship, and ship radar only able to detect like say 30-40 Km, did we have any benefit of high mach SAM in this situation?

Absolutely. Near surface cruise missiles are dangerous because radars are line-of-sight (LOS) limited and this is assuming the radar is on the surface.

Check this out...

Horizon calculator - radar and visual

Plug in your altitudes for both sides and see how much time -- in relation to distance -- you have for response. Basically, the higher the altitudes, the greater the detection distance, which equals to greater response time. An AWACS offers the best warning here.

However, just because your AWACS warned you that there is an incoming near surface threat at 100km out and at 500km/hr speed, that does not mean you can launch your interceptor when the threat is within the interceptor's range.

YOU HAVE TO KNOW YOUR WEAPON.

You have to know if your interceptor's sensor capabilities, such as its acquisition range and viewing angle, before you can even calculate a response. Is your interceptor designed to self destruct after X seconds of non-detection ? A lot of missiles are designed this way. If your interceptor do not have the correct combinations of fuel shapes and if you launch too soon, you may fail to intercept. Is the incoming near surface threat under constant speed ? Has it performed any maneuvers intended to evade radar detection ? These two questions must come from the AWACS because it will determine your launch direction which came from how well you know the interceptor's sensor viewing angle.

Again...You have to know your weapon.

 

[ni8mare]

The missile will have a length of about 4.5m, diameter of 0.54m and a wingspan of 0.94m. It can travel at a maximum speed of Mach 2, with an operational range of 70km.

Calm down guys. 2 Mach speed is nonsense. Just like 0.54 m diameter. Journos are reposting that nonsense without even thinking a bit.

true .....but then some people jealous of india will always do BS

 

[kaku1]

Rockets used as weapons are usually designed to attain their max speed a few seconds after launch. Rockets for non-weapons purposes, such as for satellite launches, are designed to have a less steep thrust curve.

For example...

View attachment 216817
Solid fuel are preferable because they are far less maintenance intensive than liquid fuel, and for deployed rockets, aka missiles, solid fuel is mandatory.

The above is an illustration of some -- not all -- of the most common solid fuel shapes in use. Each shape have its own thrust curve. For certain applications, combinations of shapes can be used.

If the missile is very short range, like in immediate battlefield conditions to wielded by one soldier, then the missile should be lightweight, which pretty much will compels you to limit your shape combinations and maybe your design will contain only one shape -- no. 6.

If the missile is intended for long range, like the AMRAAM type, then maybe there are 5 then 3.

The size and shape combinations are top secret, of course. So for the Barak, speculate all you want.


Absolutely. Near surface cruise missiles are dangerous because radars are line-of-sight (LOS) limited and this is assuming the radar is on the surface.

Check this out...

Horizon calculator - radar and visual

Plug in your altitudes for both sides and see how much time -- in relation to distance -- you have for response. Basically, the higher the altitudes, the greater the detection distance, which equals to greater response time. An AWACS offers the best warning here.

However, just because your AWACS warned you that there is an incoming near surface threat at 100km out and at 500km/hr speed, that does not mean you can launch your interceptor when the threat is within the interceptor's range.

YOU HAVE TO KNOW YOUR WEAPON.

You have to know if your interceptor's sensor capabilities, such as its acquisition range and viewing angle, before you can even calculate a response. Is your interceptor designed to self destruct after X seconds of non-detection ? A lot of missiles are designed this way. If your interceptor do not have the correct combinations of fuel shapes and if you launch too soon, you may fail to intercept. Is the incoming near surface threat under constant speed ? Has it performed any maneuvers intended to evade radar detection ? These two questions must come from the AWACS because it will determine your launch direction which came from how well you know the interceptor's sensor viewing angle.

Again...You have to know your weapon.

Wow I never know about this.

 

[cirr]

LOL - The HQ-9 won the Turkish SAM competition back in 2013. It is one of the best long-range SAMs in the world.

The version that China has is even better than the one that Turkey was offered.

Anyway this is off-topic. Let us get back to Barak 8.

052D uses HQ-9B，a much improved variant of HQ-9，while the under-build 055 will use both HQ-9B and HQ-16X，a new MRAAM。