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Is Russia’s Su-30 jet good choice for Pakistan after J-10 & JF-17 jets?

well i guess hj786 has summed up the discussion very well, i see 3 reasons due to which PAF will go for a twin engined aircraft.

1. until and unless the doctrine of PAF or armed forces changes, meaning the focus of military is not india specific but regional then may be we go for twin engined air crafts, to reach far away places.

2. the major indian military installations & forces (pakistan specific) are already in the range of PAF fighters & recent addition of Babur , Ra'ad & PGMs will be in action to target these targets. Even A-100 MBRL has a range of around 250+KM. If somehow all these systems fail or are neutralized, then may be twin engined would be needed to take heavy payloads to the targets.

3. PAF gets enough budget, personnel that it can manage twin engined fighter air crafts easily.

For the time being, no need for Su-30 and as rightly said we should built PAF with the current acquisitions & look towards a 5th generation capability.
 
If you read this blog then you understand that buying Chinese is more intresting topic then buying Russian...

Military cooperations with China & Russia
There was a huge lull in military trades between China and Russia around 2007 to 2008, because of their disagreements over IL-76s contract. Russia wanted more money after the contract was already signed and China did not want to pay up. It is pretty much like the recent spats between Russia and India over pretty much every system (after all, which contracts haven't the Russians tried to rework after signing up?), except that China actually attempted to outlast the Russians. Eventually, when they realized that they messed up in their attempt to get the design straight out of Kazakhstan, they gave in to the renegotiations. During this time, numerous Chinese military projects were disrupted. New J-10s could not be produced, because WS-10A engine still wasn't mature enough to mass equip a single engined aircraft and also they ran out of AL-31FNs. H-6Ks could not be produced, because the D-30KP2 contract was basically suspended. Any of the projects involving the IL-76 platform like the transport itself, KJ-2000 and ABL could not continue as usual. There were a lot of talks over Su-33, but nothing concrete came out of it.

In the most recent Kanwa article, it talked a lot about the contract negotiations between the two sides late last year. First, they signed a contract for 125 AL-31FNs for J-10. I think the cost for the engines went up from previous contracts ($3 million to $4 million), but the engine specs didn't actually improve. So, they are still getting the baseline FN engines rather than FM-1 or FM-2 variant. We went through about a year or 2 where almost no J-10s were produced because of engine issues, so J-10 production should start again pretty fast. In the mean time, I think they've upgraded some of the earlier J-10s to the same standard as the recent ones. Secondly, they also revived the contract for 240 D-30KP2. The terms for the contract will be the same as it was signed for, but it looks like Russia might be taking a loss on this contract. The first batch of 30 to 40 D-30 engines will be delivered by the end of this year. At which point, XAC will finally be able to start the production of the long awaited H-6K. Apparently, which China first purchased the D-30 engines, the Russians weren't even informed they were for H-6Ks, but thought it was spares for IL-76/78s. Either way, this time China has apparently informed the Russians that this engine will also be used for strategic reconnaissance/surveillance aircrafts. That would indicate that China is planning to build surveillance aircraft on the H-6 platform which would seem to interfere with the existing Y-8 programs. Or maybe, China will be using some of these engines for its own large transport platform in the future. Even if 1/3 of the 240 D-30s are used as spares for IL-76/78s, they would still have 160 engines left. If we use the standard ratio of 1 spare per 2 engines, they would still be able to produce over 100 H-6s. Based on what we've seen in the past, it's unlikely they will build that many. So, I do think that some D-30s will be used at least in the beginning stage of China's transport program.

The IL-76/IL-78 discussions are still undergoing right now with the Russians. I think they will get something done soon, because the domestic transport project still has years to go. The Il-476 production has yet to start in Russia, but I would imagine that China would want to get the first batch off the production line. They are also still having discussions over Su-33s. Russia has now raised the minimum of Su-33 orders from 24 to 40. So, China would have to purchase at least 40 Su-33s from Russia or Russia won't make the deal. Russians are also discussing the possibility of upgrading Su-33s to use MK2 avionics. But really, why would China want to do that, when MK2 avionics is still horribly outdated. Outside of anti-shipping missions and the ability to fire R-77, an MK2 upgrade really would not provide that much help. And they are also trying to discuss with China about another MK2 purchase. I don't even know what to say about that other than the factor that I'm not surprised China wasn't interested in the talks.

Outside of this, the Russians also handed China a little of systems it believes that China copied. As I mentioned in previous posts, I agree with some of them and disagree with other ones. I don't think they have signed Russia's intellectual property agreement, but they really have no need to. As I have mentioned above, China really does not have that many more requirements after IL-76 and engines, so future military cooperation meetings might not end that fruitful for the Russians either.
 
In Reply to HJ786.

Your talking about Improvements to JF17 wen the base line plane is yet to acheive IOC. A bit premature are you not.

You talk about AWACS the last I herd the only operational AWACS is india,s PHALCON.

Finally if the Flanker was so hyped up why is super duper China investing $ billions on a fleet of 500 FLANKERS. I mean the brand new J11. When they could just depoly their very own built JF17/J10.

Talking about hype i notice nearly every 3rd post in this section is about the SU30MKI in one form or another trying to convince everyone its nothing to worry about with regards PAF IAF.
 
In Reply to HJ786.
Your talking about Improvements to JF17 wen the base line plane is yet to acheive IOC. A bit premature are you not.
You talk about AWACS the last I herd the only operational AWACS is india,s PHALCON.
Finally if the Flanker was so hyped up why is super duper China investing $ billions on a fleet of 500 FLANKERS. I mean the brand new J11. When they could just depoly their very own built JF17/J10.

Talking about hype i notice nearly every 3rd post in this section is about the SU30MKI in one form or another trying to convince everyone its nothing to worry about with regards PAF IAF.

The baseline JF-17 will be made officially operational within the next few months if there are no more delays (as will the PAF's first AWACS) and talking about its upgrades is no more premature than talking about upgrades to any other new aircraft.

Unlike India who were told by Russia to wait until the late 90s for their super duper flanker, China wanted a new fighter in the early 90s so they got an out-dated flanker. They had to spend money to improve the J-11 because the version Russia provided was so crap. You're saying that after spending all that money they should abandon their only heavy-weight fighter?

Talking about hype, ever noticed how almost every post by you and your ilk tries to convince us that the InAF's new fighters are invincible?
 
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No HJ786.

mki or in deed any flanker is not invincible.

Give me some credit Please.

SU30MKI is the best flanker of the lot bar SU35.

But its behind Typhoon & Rafale/Gripen and just cannon fodder to F22/JSF.

I will also argue that its parity against UAE/USA F16/60 Aesa equipped and F18 S/H..

Anything else including JF17/J10/F16/52/su27 plaaf//J11 i give the su30mki the edge.

Edge only means no more than +15% esp against amraam equipped F16s
 
In Reply to HJ786.

Your talking about Improvements to JF17 wen the base line plane is yet to acheive IOC. A bit premature are you not.
i guess it is more of proactive rather then premature. after all we will not like the JF projects facing decades of delays as it was the case with the LCA project!

You talk about AWACS the last I herd the only operational AWACS is india,s PHALCON.
and may i ask where did you heard it from??

Finally if the Flanker was so hyped up why is super duper China investing $ billions on a fleet of 500 FLANKERS. I mean the brand new J11. When they could just depoly their very own built JF17/J10.
it is discussed many times and i will not like going into details that the J11 can no more be termed as the original Su27! it is all beefed up and modified to take it to a next level!

Talking about hype i notice nearly every 3rd post in this section is about the SU30MKI in one form or another trying to convince everyone its nothing to worry about with regards PAF IAF
i agree with you on ths point! i mean i agree that the Su30 is more of a hype then its actual performance! you know our indian friends aree good at creaing this sort of hype, the T20 worldcup was an example for everyone! after there last match of super eight i was watching the add of CHAMPIONS TROPHY on star cricket in the interval of T20 worldcup matches! i mean the T20 was all gone just in a flash and i bet you that the day the indian get the MRCA or if PAF get the SU30 the hype will be all gone. havnent anyone one noticed that the Il78 have turned to the dumbest plane the day we got them and before that thime the IAF were way too happy about them!

i hope you understand what i was trying to say!

thankyou

regards!
 
Q.
Why would pakistan even need a twin engine aircraft ?
for all the arguments provided FOR the motion, pakistan would hardly ever
need to fly an air craft that deep into enemy territory for strikes for the following reason
1. Missiles are far cheaper and far more reliable as they have easier job of defeating the air defense of your opponent.
2. Pakistan does not have the infantry for a land capture role in case we do go on bombing some one too deep.
The theater of operation for Pakistan is very close to the border and we do not need big heavy aircraft to do that job.

Smaller lighter, more agile air-craft coupled with customized cheaper missile with some cruise capability will do the job wayy better.
 
i guess it will be better to change the title of the thread to:

is Su30 a choice for PAF!

for me it wont ever be one! the russians will never be sellling them to us, niether will be PAF willing for them because of the maintainance bills and there cost. most importantly i think it is just the indian propagande that makes the Su30 THE BEST in the world but in reality it is only as good as any other 4.5 generation plane and in that case we will have lots of other options and wont be going for a plane already flying in our neighbour!

regards!

actually I am of the belief that Russia will do most anything for money......
 
actually I am of the belief that Russia will do most anything for money......

One of the things Pakistan doesn't have much of right now. You should know, the PAF have already evaluated the Su-27, the Ukrainians flew some down to Pakistan in the 90s. The PAF liked it but they wanted lots of upgrades. Right now they want the J-10 and JF-17 with Western radars and weapons. The F-16 is just a bonus which they couldn't pass up.
 

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