Is religion a source of unity or division?

[Manvantaratruti]

Rumi, the 13th Century Persian poet and teacher of Sufism, included it in his Masnavi. In his retelling, "The Elephant in the Dark", some Hindus bring an elephant to be exhibited in a dark room. A number of men touch and feel the elephant in the dark and, depending upon where they touch it, they believe the elephant to be like a water spout (trunk), a fan (ear), a pillar (leg) and a throne (back). Rumi uses this story as an example of the limits of individual perception:

The sensual eye is just like the palm of the hand. The palm has not the means of covering the whole of the beast.[10]

Rumi does not present a resolution to the conflict in his version, but states:

The eye of the Sea is one thing and the foam another. Let the foam go, and gaze with the eye of the Sea. Day and night foam-flecks are flung from the sea: oh amazing! You behold the foam but not the Sea. We are like boats dashing together; our eyes are darkened, yet we are in clear water.

Rumi ends his poem by stating "If each had a candle and they went in together the differences would disappear."​

LOL, good one ..........however the original story is from the Chandogya Upanishad which was told at least 2000 years before Rumi wrote the distorted version of the story and drew the wrong conclusion. It explains the principle philosophy of the Vendanta.

The story is about 6 blind men describing the elephant.

The teaching is that we try to perceive the world around us using only our 5 primary senses (sight, sound, touch, smell & taste) and this is equivalent to the blind men trying to figure out an Elephant.

To under the universe ("truth") we need to go beyond our primary senses and use many other senses like the mind, soul, conscience, etc..

But here is one of my favorite poems dedicated to this particular truth. .....

It was six men of Hindoostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk
Cried, "Ho! what have we here,
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up he spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee:
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he;
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope.
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"

And so these men of Hindoostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

 

[raptor22]

LOL, good one ..........however the original story is from the Chandogya Upanishad which was told at least 2000 years before Rumi wrote the distorted version of the story and drew the wrong conclusion. It explains the principle philosophy of the Vendanta.

The story is about 6 blind men describing the elephant.

The teaching is that we try to perceive the world around us using only our 5 primary senses (sight, sound, touch, smell & taste) and this is equivalent to the blind men trying to figure out an Elephant.

To under the universe ("truth") we need to go beyond our primary senses and use many other senses like the mind, soul, conscience, etc..

I meant although truth (Elephant) was an unique thing, all those men judged base upon their backgrounds not reality, as matter of fact they preferred to make decision in darkness.Therefore as it seems to me truth is one unique matter but people whom driven by their selfish desire and passion are not willing to knee before it, and that is the root of all these conflicts and wars worldwide NOT religion. actually there is no one on this planet who doesn't have religion the point is we need to listen twice and talk less.

God says in holly book Quran:
39:18
"Who listen to speech and follow the best of it. Those are the ones Allah has guided, and those are people of understanding."

 

[Manvantaratruti]

I meant although truth (Elephant) was an unique thing, all those men judged base upon their backgrounds not reality, as matter of fact they preferred to make decision in darkness.Therefore as it seems to me truth is one unique matter but people whom driven by their selfish desire and passion are not willing to knee before it, and that is the root of all these conflicts and wars worldwide NOT religion. actually there is no one on this planet who doesn't have religion the point is we need to listen twice and talk less.

God says in holly book Quran:
39:18
"Who listen to speech and follow the best of it. Those are the ones Allah has guided, and those are people of understanding."

LOL..... like all others you too have decided that there is one particular "truth". In this case and Elephant which you have seen with your own eyes, heard with your own ears, smelled and touched.

Since you are now convinced of this "truth" no one can tell you otherwise, can they ?

 

[LordTyrannus]

Watch this video. It is real. %th dimensional beeings teching secrets of Life.

Archangel Michael talking to us from a medium.

 

[raptor22]

LOL..... like all others you too have decided that there is one particular "truth". In this case and Elephant which you have seen with your own eyes, heard with your own ears, smelled and touched.

Since you are now convinced of this "truth" no one can tell you otherwise, can they ?

From which part of my post you got this? Surly I believe in sth like all other humans, but it's not translated into being deaf and not willing to listen to others . what you mentioned implies you have not got my comment ... I said there are too many people by different religions( like those men in the story with different backgrounds made through their life) the point is people are so certain about their beliefs while they shouldn't be, Socrates said "All I know is I know nothing" if we could be patient, good listener and fair no war would take place. peace is possible and everyone could follow their religions or sects if we fathom this concept that truth is only thing worth to live for and to know the truth, war is last thing we need.
My religion suggest what I mentioned:

God says in holly book Quran:
39:18
"Who listen to speech and follow the best of it. Those are the ones Allah has guided, and those are people of understanding."


Could you please tell what might truth be in your ideas? do you believe in the so-called "Religious pluralism"?

 

[Manvantaratruti]

From which part of my post you got this? Surly I believe in sth like all other humans, but it's not translated into being deaf and not willing to listen to others . what you mentioned implies you have not got my comment ... I said there are too many people by different religions( like those men in the story with different backgrounds made through their life) the point is people are so certain about their beliefs while they shouldn't be, Socrates said "All I know is I know nothing" if we could be patient, good listener and fair no war would take place. peace is possible and everyone could follow their religions or sects if we fathom this concept that truth is only thing worth to live for and to know the truth, war is last thing we need.
My religion suggest what I mentioned:

God says in holly book Quran:
39:18
"Who listen to speech and follow the best of it. Those are the ones Allah has guided, and those are people of understanding."


Could you please tell what might truth be in your ideas? do you believe in the so-called "Religious pluralism"?

When you said "truth is one unique matter". I had highlighted that comment to prevent this very question.

Truth is not unique, it is a matter of perception. What you perceive to be true. Is Light solid or a wave ? Truth can be dual too.

Selective quote from the Quran proves nothing.

Quran 3.151 , We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with Allah of which He had not sent down [any] authority. And their refuge will be the Fire, and wretched is the residence of the wrongdoers.

 

[raptor22]

When you said "truth is one unique matter". I had highlighted that comment to prevent this very question.

Truth is not unique, it is a matter of perception. What you perceive to be true. Is Light solid or a wave ? Truth can be dual too.

Selective quote from the Quran proves nothing.

Quran 3.151 , We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with Allah of which He had not sent down [any] authority. And their refuge will be the Fire, and wretched is the residence of the wrongdoers.

If you wear a sunglasses your vision would be darkened or colored , does it change outside or light? if you wear a sunglasses with green lens and I wear a blue one does it mean that your world's got changed and become different of mine? some animals like cats are color blind their understanding of world might be different to what a fly could see but the world is world , therefore what you say is merely translated into millions of worlds while the blame would lay on us not the world .... light is light whether it belongs to sun or a candle or a lamp ... but the point is all of them are called light by different intensity. the light is light.
Killing an innocent person is not acceptable and every sensible and rational human would condemn it , what you say means a killer could say in my feeling and thoughts it's ok hence there would be no punishment.
Truth could be too complex and hard to comprehend and surly takes time to be resolved and we could be misled, there could be many approaches to it , people could utilize various of methods and strategy to get it and it might fool us that due to numerous paths towards it there are too many destinations but it's not.
Our perception base upon feeling and sense is not trustworthy we need something else to rely on.

And on that verse from holly book Quran, you are right we do need to read a book completely to get what it says ... but what I bring here as examples are related to topic .... you did the same .

 

[Manvantaratruti]

If you wear a sunglasses your vision would be darkened or colored , does it change outside or light? if you wear a sunglasses with green lens and I wear a blue one does it mean that your world's got changed and become different of mine? some animals like cats are color blind their understanding of world might be different to what a fly could see but the world is world , therefore what you say is merely translated into millions of worlds while the blame would lay on us not the world .... light is light whether it belongs to sun or a candle or a lamp ... but the point is all of them are called light by different intensity. the light is light.

No it is not.

Light is also heat to the lizard, life to the plant, death to the bacteria. Light is meaningless to the blind man. If the world were full of blind men and women light itself would have not meaning and would not even exist.

The nature of light itself is unknown, we see only a particular spectrum of light. It also has a mass which we do not perceive, it also has a speed which we do not perceive, it has electromagnetic properties which we do not perceive.

If we have organs that would translate sound into light, we would think sound is light. For a plant which has no eyes, light may just be heat or magic. Who is to say our perception of light is more than what a plant perceives ?

You see there is NO "unique truth". That was the moral of the story you quoted above.

Killing an innocent person is not acceptable and every sensible and rational human would condemn it , what you say means a killer could say in my thoughts it's ok hence there would be no punishment.

You are wrong again. Innocence is a subjective judgement. Your own statement has implied that killing a "Non innocent" is perfectly acceptable.

What is this imaginary line which translates into one's innocence or guilt ? Every killer does say in his own mind that its "ok", which is why he goes about killing in the first place. Very rarely do killers kill people knowing its wrong. In their own mind they are perfectly justified. The way we are 'perfectly justified' in executing mass murderers.

Truth could be too complex and hard to comprehend and surly takes time to be resolved and we could misled, there could be many approaches to it , people could utilize various of methods and strategy to get it and it might fool us that due to numerous paths towards it there are too many destinations but it's not.
Our perception base upon feeling and sense is not trustworthy we need something else to rely on.

Those are only for people who pursue the truth. Most people do not bother too much about it, do they ? ...they just want simple directions on what to do and what not to do. Religion for dummies.......... in a manner of speaking.

And on that verse from holly book Quran, you are right we do need to read a book completely to get what it says ... but what I bring here as examples are related to topic .... you did the same .

I merely expanded on the example YOU gave.

 

[raptor22]

No it is not.

Light is also heat to the lizard, life to the plant, death to the bacteria. Light is meaningless to the blind man. If the world were full of blind men and women light itself would have not meaning and would not even exist.

The nature of light itself is unknown, we see only a particular spectrum of light. It also has a mass which we do not perceive, it also has a speed which we do not perceive, it has electromagnetic properties which we do not perceive.

If we have organs that would translate sound into light, we would think sound is light. For a plant which has no eyes, light may just be heat or magic. Who is to say our perception of light is more than what a plant perceives ?

You see there is NO "unique truth". That was the moral of the story you quoted above.

I brought examples and again you are in the first place, whatever you are human, animal, plant or even a bacteria light's properties doesn't change ... it's existance doesn't related to us even when we are blind, it'd been even before us ... the point is as you said we do not know what light might be that's why our answers are different it's our ignorance and incapabalities not truth , our perception are different not light ... even if we had an organ which made us capable to translate light to sound again problem us who couldn't sense or understand light truly not light itself. none of those things you said changes the light they indicates our weakness to understand it. to understand the truth you need to make yourself completed .

You are wrong again. Innocence is a subjective judgement. Your own statement has implied that killing a "Non innocent" is perfectly acceptable.

What is this imaginary line which transltes into one's innocence or guilt ? Every killer does say in his own mind that its "ok", which is why he goes about killing in the first place. Very rarely do killers kill people knowing its wrong. In their own mind they are perfectly justified. The way we are 'perfectly justified' in executing mass murderers.

why are you playing with words? what I said was about innocent people and I didn't go to detalis .... you are telling me that there are too many truth which resulted into nothing but this : all people are right and nothing is wrong ... up to know two or three times you mentioned that I am wrong how could it possible while it's my perception and it's different by yours? as you said in your ideas while I am wrong I am right the same story for you.
As far as there is no unique truth you can not tell me "You are wrong".

Those are only for people who pursue the truth. Most people do not bother too much about it, do they ? ...they just want simple directions on what to do and what not to do. Religion for dummies.......... in a manner of speaking.


I merely expanded on the example YOU gave.

It's not my problem and again it doesn't effect or change the truth. if you turn your back to sun it doesn't change sun it's you who is not using its heat and light... to get Nobel prise you must work furiously

 

[Manvantaratruti]

I brought examples and again you are in the first place, whatever you are human, animal, plant or even a bacteria light's properties doesn't change ... it's existance doesn't related to us even when we are blind, it'd been even before us ... the point is as you said we do not know what light might be that's why our answers are different it's our ignorance and incapabalities not truth , our perception are different not light ... even if we had an organ which made us capable to translate light to sound again problem us who couldn't sense or understand light truly not light itself. none of those things you said changes the light they indicates our weakness to understand it. to understand the truth you need to make yourself completed .

You see light's properties DOES change depending on the observer. The properties you attribute to light is only the properties of your senses. The properties you attribute to light is just the property of what you can sense or perceive. It might not even be real.

The search for the truth then demands you discard what ever you perceive to be true and then start with a clean slate.

Then the next step, how do you make yourself complete to first sense the truth and then understand it ?

BTW, Truth itself can be meaningless unless there are people who perceive the untruth. If no men existed then is there any "truth" ?

why are you playing with words? what I said was about innocent people and I didn't go to detalis .... you are telling me that there are too many truth which resulted into nothing but this : all people are right and nothing is wrong ... up to know two or three times you mentioned that I am wrong how could it possible while it's my perception and it's different by yours? as you said in your ideas while I am wrong I am right the same story for you.

As far as there is no unique truth you can not tell me "You are wrong".

Discussing about the morality of human action can be separated from a discussion on what is "real" or "true". For anyone who has detached himself/herserlf from human action and reaction there is nothing wrong or right. For the rest of us who live in society, morality and ethics provide limited guide in the world we perceive.

It's not my problem and again it doesn't effect or change the truth. if you turn your back to sun it doesn't change sun it's you who is not using its heat and light... to get Nobel prise you must work furiously

There might not even be a sun, only a perception that it exists.

 

[raptor22]

You see light's properties DOES change depending on the observer. The properties you attribute to light is only the properties of your senses. The properties you attribute to light is just the property of what you can sense or perceive. It might not even be real.
The search for the truth then demands you discard what ever you perceive to be true and then start with a clean slate.

Then the next step, how do you make yourself complete to first sense the truth and then understand it ?

BTW, Truth itself can be meaningless unless there are people who perceive the untruth. If no men existed then is there any "truth" ?

Discussing about the morality of human action can be separated from a discussion on what is "real" or "true". For anyone who has detached himself/herserlf from human action and reaction there is nothing wrong or right. For the rest of us who live in society, morality and ethics provide limited guide in the world we perceive.

There might not even be a sun, only a perception that it exists.

The fact that what we get is our perceptions you are right, but it means there would be no way to reach unity ... my morality standards could be far away by yours, it's not knowable ..... there is no chance to come to an agreement. It means we never ever could reach any answer by the end of this discussion ....
As you said light's properties does change depending on the observer .... so it means light doesn't change .. ok ... am I right?
then how could we study it?

 

[Jf Thunder]

unity

 

[Manvantaratruti]

The fact that what we get is our perceptions you are right, but it means there would be no way to reach unity ... my morality standards could be far away by yours, it's not knowable ..... there is no chance to come to an agreement. It means we never ever could reach any answer by the end of this discussion ....
As you said light's properties does change depending on the observer .... so it means light doesn't change .. ok ... am I right?
then how could we study it?

For interactions between people morality is not relevant, only mutual respect is.

The real question to be asked is if there is mutual respect, or is there only a thinly veiled "tolerance".

What is light, if not a collection of its properties ? ....if the properties are not real, how can light be real ?

 

[raptor22]

For interactions between people morality is not relevant, only mutual respect is.

The real question to be asked is if there is mutual respect, or is there only a thinly veiled "tolerance".

What is light, if not a collection of its properties ? ....if the properties are not real, how can light be real ?

you first prove it is not real then talk about it properties ....

 

[Manvantaratruti]

you first prove it is not real then talk about it properties ....

If it is not real then it would not have any properties.

As you said, at the end of the day to realize truth we need to expand our senses .......... how do we do that ?